Wide panel/plywood crosscutting: Track saw? Cordless? Rail Compatible?

[smorgasbord]

I've got a pretty well equipped shop with, among other things, a 12" blade tablesaw with a nice shop-built angle-adjustable sled, and a 12" Bosch miter saw. I've done some big projects, including entry doors, but they've all been solid wood. My current project (dragging on, and I can blame shoulder surgery now) is a Murphy bed, which uses plywood.

On big wide things like doors (and now the bed panels), I struggle to get good accurate cross-cuts. The 12" miter saw maxes out around 12", the tablesaw sled struggles with lengths over 3', and I don't have a track saw or even a good hand held circular saw. I've typically used the circular saw for a rough cut, then trim with a straight edge and router. That's slow to setup and do.

Since I'm an old foggie, I started in the days before track saws and MFTs. I'm probably never going to swap out my shop made workbench with heavy duty square dogs for an MFT like thing, but I will be tackling some other projects that need wide, accurate, and clean crosscuts, including plywood. With projects like doors, I'm also cutting 8/4 stock, but maybe I don't need that thickness for the wide crosscuts - unless I tackle a dining room table in the future. Hmm. note that I'll continue to do rips on the tablesaw.

I want something with a rail, not just to ensure an accurate 90 degree cut, but for splintering. And, I find myself doing weird angles at times, and a rail with an edge I can line up to a mark has got to be better than an edge guide with a distance at which I have to compensate and can't clamp all that well to the stock.

My first thought was the TSV60 since it has that scoring blade. I only use melamine for shop cabs, but hardwood plywood veneers are very thin these days. Any thoughts on the usefulness of the scoring blade on this saw? It's not cordless, but that's probably OK except for trips to the lumberyard where it would be nice to rip/cut plywood down to size for transport home. The does seem a bit ungainly with the extra length from the scoring setup.

I was then even thinking about the Makita XSH10Z - a 9" blade hand-held cordless circular saw that is "rail compatible." This gives me a ton of thickness capacity, can be used with or without the rail. I already have some Makita cordless tools so I don't need a charger or more batteries.

A 50" guide rail would probably do me fine, btw. My entry door was 42" wide, but I'm not planning on doing another one of those since it's holding up really well.

Part of me thinks I'm over-doing it looking at the scoring version or the Makita to get cordless (I do have one application on an outdoor bridge where cordless would be nice, but then again, plunging to a set depth is also necessary. Which means the TS60.

Thanks for any and all thoughts. Not going to get 2 saws, though.

 

[tjbnwi]

TS-60. For solid cross cuts a lower tooth count blade.

48 & 75” rail if you’re cutting angles. If you want to rip 4x8 panels you’ll need get connectors or go to a 2700 or 3000 rail.

Doesn’t solve the lumber yard issue, I’d get a cheep cordless for that.

Tom

 

[Packard]

I make scoring cuts with my track saw by first clamping the track securely in place.

Second, I set the depth of cut to about 1/8”.  And then I make the first cut by dragging the saw backwards.

Finally, I set the saw to the necessary depth to make the final cut.

But test first.

I’ve gotten plywood with both an ultra thin veneer, and poor bonding.  To deal with that, I had to make two scoring cuts.  The first to slice through just the veneer, and the second to achieve that 1/8 deep score.

Then follow up with the full depth cut.

I used to use the track saw for pre-sizing only, and make the finished size on the table saw.  But with a squaring arm, and two rulers, I now cut to finished size with the track saw.

The table saw is faster for repetitive cuts.  So if I am doing several panels, I will still pre-size the panels with the track saw, and finish cut with the table saw.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

TS-60. For solid cross cuts a lower tooth count blade.

48 & 75” rail if you’re cutting angles. If you want to rip 4x8 panels you’ll need get connectors or go to a 2700 or 3000 rail.

Doesn’t solve the lumber yard issue, I’d get a cheep cordless for that.

Tom

Agreed, totally. I use the FS1900 a lot, either cross cutting angles or 60" laminate sheets. A FS1400 canbarely work with  4' sheet goods, when making square cuts, angles are a no-go. The FS3000 is a fantastic thing too, but it has serious limitations related to size. They are just not small-shop friendly.
I have never had the need for cordless, like at a lumberyard, but since I'm on the Makita platform, it seems like the way to go. But, I already have 3 track saws [eek] so that seems unlikely.
I did consider selling my TS55 to one of the installers the other day, but I don't know if i can actually do it?

 

[waho6o9]

You'll never regret having a 3000 rail.

You don't want 2 saws so I'd get the 75 and use different blades when you need them. 

Then all that's needed is a crosscut rail that suites your needs.

All the Best

 

[smorgasbord]

And then I make the first cut by dragging the saw backwards.
Finally, I set the saw to the necessary depth to make the final cut.

Yeah, climb cutting is dangerous at full depth (and impossible with a riving knife), but your procedure is sound. The TSV-60 essentially does that for you in one pass.

Even within the width capacity of my Bosch glider, I've found myself doing climb cuts to avoid tear out. And, I've got a Forrest ChopMaster blade and a zero clearance insert at the bottom.

I was discussing this with a friend, and he challenged me on the usefulness of my miter saw station. He pointed out that it's best at cutting raw lumber down to size. Anything short enough and I had to admit I use my tablesaw sled for accuracy instead, unless it's too wide. But, if it's too wide, the SCMS can't handle it, either.

He asked if I should instead sell my Bosch glider and instead re-build that station with a guide rail on an adjustable angle gauge, like the TSO precision triangle, setup with the guide rail attached to one of the shorter triangle arms so that the rail changes angle instead of the stock.

I think the counter to that is setup time or loss of length stops.

With the SCMS the saw pivots out of the way when you're done, so it's easy to unload and reload the next piece, even with a length stop setup. With the Triangle/Guide Rail system, I would have to lift the guide rail and attached triangle up and away, swap stock, then replace. But, I'd also need some way to index the triangle to the bench so that a length stop would work. Yes, I know the MFT-3 has the protractor head with a flip stop on the the rail, but that pivots the stock, which is impractical for me, especially as I often cut pieces 10' or longer with non-90 degree cuts.

Watching this video:

I wondered if there was a way for me to drill two 20mm holes in my miter station base and then get longer "dogs" to fit into the bottom of the triangle pivot arm so that I could cut thicker stock:
[attachimg=1]

It'd still be slower than the SCMS, but at this point in my woodworking life I'm not doing high volume carpentry type things anymore. Precision always takes time and while the Bosch glider is pretty good, it's not as perfect as I'd like.

Thoughts / brain-storming welcome.

 

[Jim_in_PA]

OP, a track saw is a great solution for what you want/need to do. And having one gives you the advantage of many more "problem solving" opportunities even if you primarily work "old school". Need to shorten a cabinet...an existing one? Track saw makes it easy and safe to do, for example. And honestly, it makes some tasks a lot easier including long rips of big material. Just throw a piece of foam insulation on that traditional bench/table you mention and do the deed without wrestling the material onto a cabinet saw, etc.

I will echo another comment made...for quick and dirty cutting material to length, I have an inexpensive battery powered circular saw. Mine happens to be from Harbor Freight, but that's not important. It replaced the "tailed" 1980s B&D circular saw for this kind of thing for pure convenience and it gets used more than I expected. I don't prefer to use my Festool track saw for that kind of thing.

 

[Hipplewm]

OP, a track saw is a great solution for what you want/need to do. And having one gives you the advantage of many more "problem solving" opportunities even if you primarily work "old school". Need to shorten a cabinet...an existing one? Track saw makes it easy and safe to do, for example. And honestly, it makes some tasks a lot easier including long rips of big material. Just throw a piece of foam insulation on that traditional bench/table you mention and do the deed without wrestling the material onto a cabinet saw, etc.

I will echo another comment made...for quick and dirty cutting material to length, I have an inexpensive battery powered circular saw. Mine happens to be from Harbor Freight, but that's not important. It replaced the "tailed" 1980s B&D circular saw for this kind of thing for pure convenience and it gets used more than I expected. I don't prefer to use my Festool track saw for that kind of thing.

I was in the OP shoes and came to roughly this conclusion....however I had an issue....
1. I didn't want a corded saw
2. I didn't want a different battery
3. I wanted the festool track due to many many attachments it can handle

I bought a Dewalt flexvolt track saw, festool track and have been happy for quite some time

If you aren't hung up on cordless or different batteries, you have a ton of choices - but it all ends with "track saw"

 

[Packard]

If the Kreg rip guide had been available when I bought my track saw, I might have gone that route and continued making the final cuts on the table saw.  I probably could have kept my old car too.

Instead, I bought a Chrysler van which will take a full sheet of plywood inside, the track saw and a bunch of track saw accessories. 

I may still get one of these.  Kreg claims you can get sufficient accuracy for most panel work.  I have my doubts.

As an aside, the HGTV show “Maine Cabinmasters”, had a show where they featured their newly purchased facility that became their official workshop.  They had virtually every Kreg product hanging on pegboard.  I suspect that Kreg paid for that placement.

 

[mino]

TS-60. For solid cross cuts a lower tooth count blade.

48 & 75” rail if you’re cutting angles. If you want to rip 4x8 panels you’ll need get connectors or go to a 2700 or 3000 rail.

Doesn’t solve the lumber yard issue, I’d get a cheep cordless for that.

Tom

As a TSC 55 hobby owner (on sale now) I have to concur. I got it ahead of TS 55 thinking I will get to avoid needing a cordless circular saw. Wrong!

With the caveat that a TS 55 F is not a bad option either - it uses the same blades as the HK 55 and having a riving knife helps in some cases compared to a TS 60.

For cordless, one does not need a tracksaw. A HK 55 (or similar from Maffel, Makita) etc. will do just fine. Just take something that takes the same blades as your daily-driver tracksaw and can ride the FS/2 tracks.

Also, good to stay away from Festool Panther blades. They are carpentry-focused and not suitable for sheet goods.

 

[mino]

..
Yeah, climb cutting is dangerous at full depth (and impossible with a riving knife), but your procedure is sound. The TSV-60 essentially does that for you in one pass.
...

This is not correct on both fronts:
1) *) a climbing cut is NOT dangerous with a tracksaw if the depth of cut is set very shallow - between 1/32 and 1/16 of an inch which is easy to do with a Festool tracksaw: One just plunges until the blade hits the material, sets the depth stop, releases the saw, then move the depth stop one notch /which is 1mm/, does the climbing cut, sets the depth stop for a full cut and does the cut. Done that several times when needed a perfect cut and with the quick-set depth stop on my TSC 55 it is an absolutely workable workflow.

2) with the Festool tracksaws the riving knive is on a spring an "folds in" for any cut where it could not "go into the material", so one can do climbing cuts absolutely fine in that context

The only "issue" is of productivity as one has to do two passes. For a hobby user or even a pro once-in-a-while that is IMO not a real problem. Besides, where I may want to do a climbing cut is with laminated chipboard. Which is exactly the type of stock that just does not kick back as there are not much fibers the blade can grab to begin.

My main point being, both of those concerns are a non-issue in practice with any of the Festool TS series saws.

EDIT:
*) just noticed the full-depth comment. The trick is that with a properly set depth stop - which is easy with a TS55, not so easy with many other vendors (looking at you Makita!) there is no risk of plunging too much. An besides that, a full-depth climbing cut would create a bad cut edge as well ... just on the other side.

 

[pixelated]

I had one of those Kreg crosscut guides, long before I stepped into the Festool world.
Problem one was that the thing wasn't square out of the box, and there was no way to adjust it.
Then my saw wouldn't fit the carriage.
I repurposed the rail by attaching squarely it to a shop made head to make a T-square, but it sat around unused until I finally ditched it.

I augment my HK55 with a Bosch "track ready" cordless that works on Festool tracks, and can be had for a few hundred less than a Festool saw. It works well for what it is, but is fiddly to work with compared to Festool saws. But, it might be an ok choice if you already have Bosch 18v batteries.

 

[Coen]

[...]
EDIT:
*) just noticed the full-depth comment. The trick is that with a properly set depth stop - which is easy with a TS55, not so easy with many other vendors (looking at you Makita!) there is no risk of plunging too much. An besides that, a full-depth climbing cut would create a bad cut edge as well ... just on the other side.

What's with Makita? They have the notch on the rail?

Anyway, I never had to cut anything oversized at the store. I either walk it home or go by bicycle. Or fold the seats and leave the rear car door open. But even if I had to; they have saws to use for that in the store. Or I bring my battery powered €90 12V reciprocating saw.

 

[smorgasbord]

...
EDIT:
*) just noticed the full-depth comment. The trick is that with a properly set depth stop - which is easy with a TS55, not so easy with many other vendors (looking at you Makita!) there is no risk of plunging too much. An besides that, a full-depth climbing cut would create a bad cut edge as well ... just on the other side.

Thanks for catching the missing qualifier I originally included. And thanks for pointing out the spring-loaded riving knife aspect.

But, full-depth climb cutting, when properly controlled, does leave a better edge. The physics of the chip explain why.

Here's a good article:https://www.harveyperformance.com/in-the-loupe/conventional-vs-climb-milling/#:~:text=Climb%20Milling%20is%20generally%20the,finish%2C%20and%20improves%20tool%20life.

Here's a summary. First, conventional cutting:
[attachimg=1]

You can see that the end of the cut has the largest chip removal with no support under it.

Now let's look at climb cutting:
[attachimg=2]

Here the start of the cut has the largest chip removal with full support from the as yet uncut wood. At the end of the cut, there's almost no wood being removed, so the potential for a chip-out is way reduced.

Wood Mag has similar graphics:https://www.woodmagazine.com/tool-reviews/routers/climb-cutting-explained

The key, of course, is that the cutting tool has to be properly controlled. Even consumer CNC routers can do this, but large cuts in hand held tools, or stock fed by hand, can be dangerous at full depth.

 

[smorgasbord]

Back on subject, I'm now leaning towards the TS-60 or TSV-60 and keeping my Bosch Glider for non-critical cut-offs and/or long narrow stock cut-offs.

Given the plywood experience I've had, part of me wants the TSV-60, but the double-pass thing makes me think I could probably get away with the TS-60 - I'm not a pro crunched for time and I probably will never rely on edge-banded plywood for projects.

It gives up battery usage, but that's probably less important in the long run.

 

[Packard]

Before I had my track saw, I had made a guide for my circular saw.  It was a sheet of 3/16” tempered Masonite ripped out about 12” wide.  At one side I mounted a straight piece of 1-1/2” x 3/4” stock. 

The Masonite was wider than the initial cut.  When I made the first cut, it matched my blade.  To make my cuts, I placed the Masonite with the trimmed edge at the cut line.  Clamped and then making certain to keep the shoe of the saw against the guide strip, I made the cut.

The Masonite (when new) was an effective chip guard.  If you replace the blade, you had to make a new board.  It also had a life-expectancy of a few dozen cuts before the chip guard effect started to diminish.  The edge gets a bit rough.  I suspect that the blade in my saw does not run 100% true.  (Neither does my chop saw blade.)

The setup required careful execution.  A lapse of attention would allow the saw to lose contact with the guide strip.  But a cheap and effective way to cut sheet goods with relative accuracy.

I looked on YouTube for a video of the guide I built.  Amazingly, some of the videos are over 20 minutes lone. 

This 4 minute video from Rockler is only about 3 minutes too long.

Watch from 3:10 to 3.50 to see how it works.  This design is better than the ones I used to build.  Using 1/4” thick material at the guide rail allows for the full depth of cut.  With 3/4” thick material that I used, I lost about 1/4” to 1/2” in cutting depth.

 

[jeffinsgf]

Back on subject, I'm now leaning towards the TS-60 or TSV-60 and keeping my Bosch Glider for non-critical cut-offs and/or long narrow stock cut-offs.

Given the plywood experience I've had, part of me wants the TSV-60, but the double-pass thing makes me think I could probably get away with the TS-60 - I'm not a pro crunched for time and I probably will never rely on edge-banded plywood for projects.

It gives up battery usage, but that's probably less important in the long run.

Before you make up your mind about the scoring unit, pick one up side by side with a single blade saw. I was a bit shocked and the weight difference and how much real estate the scoring unit takes up.

 

[smorgasbord]

Before you make up your mind about the scoring unit, pick one up side by side with a single blade saw. I was a bit shocked and the weight difference and how much real estate the scoring unit takes up.

Yeah, I'm watching Sedge on the old Festool Lives (149 & 150) and he said it's at least 2.5 lbs heavier and I can see how much longer. Maybe the two pass thing for plywood is the way to go.

So, I've gone down the homemade guide route previously (last century, actually), and not interested in doing that. I really want a real metal guide to which the saw locks horizontally in both directions and can take advantage of the some of the things like clip-on squares, adjustable squares, stop blocks, and replaceable splinter strips, etc.

Which is probably why I'll end up with a track saw instead of a rail-compatible saw. It does seem having the plunge with an easily set depth stop is the way to go.

Two questions:
1) The Makita track saws can be locked to the guide so that on bevel cuts the base is less likely to lift. Katz-Moses says the Festool balance is better so maybe it's not as needed, but he didn't sound convinced. My whole reason for going this route is avoiding mistakes, so do any Festool track saw owners miss this?

2) Is it worth getting the Festool track over the cheaper Makita track? If so, why?

 

[mino]

Two questions:
1) The Makita track saws can be locked to the guide so that on bevel cuts the base is less likely to lift. Katz-Moses says the Festool balance is better so maybe it's not as needed, but he didn't sound convinced. My whole reason for going this route is avoiding mistakes, so do any Festool track saw owners miss this?

2) Is it worth getting the Festool track over the cheaper Makita track? If so, why?

1) Yes, it is completely useless as far as I am concerned. Also the Makita Tracksaw does not have the special plastic guides the TS series (starting with TS 55 R and excluding TS 75) have so the cams get damaged and have to taken care of lest you have the saw wobble on the rail. You can always use the saw stop for this with Festool anyway.

2) Yes, the Makita tracks are less accurate hence they are cheaper to made. While none of the makers spec their rails formally, when I was comparing I found the Makita tracks had from-factory bends of about 0.2-0.3mm/meter while Festool FS/2 were universally about half that. Also the anti-tip feature of the makita tracks makes most accessories impossible to use/attach with them. The "grippy" strips on makita actually do not grip. The anti-splinter strip does not anti-splinter. There is just no comparison. I would personally not rate the Makita rails as cabinetry-rate stuff. But I am a very demanding person so .. Makita does have excellent rail connectors though.

 

[Packard]

My track saw decision was made easier.  I did not know about FOG, and little was written about Makita back then. 

Festool seemed like the only game on TV.  And there were only two choices at Festool. 

Deciding nowadays, requires a computer and a consultant. 

A lot of things like that lately.  A few years back, Tesla (expensive with good range and nice interor) or Bolt (cheap, low range and cheap interior).  Your wallet decided for you.