Wide panel/plywood crosscutting: Track saw? Cordless? Rail Compatible?

[mino]

FS/2 => cabinetry
FSK => carpentry

With all it entails.

For reference, my rails are (hobby user):

2x 376 in systainer, mobile /works but not as wanted, will switch to 3x550 in a SYS MAXI/
376 - 1x 376 LR 32 handy /cut from 1400/ plunge cuts, LR32 single-hole plunges etc./
800 - 1x 800 handy
1016 - 1x 1016 LR 32 handy /cut from 1400/
1400 - 1x 1400 LR32 /mostly used as LR32 only/
1600 - 2x 800 permanently joined as 1600
1950 - 1x 1400 + 1x 550 semi-permanently joined as 1950
2500/3000 - 1x 2500 (cut from 2700, bad buy, should have got 3000) + 1x 550 semi-permanently joined as 3050

From those, the most useful/essential are 1400 LR 32, and 1016 with 1600 closely following. Yes I am overdoing it and have made a big mistake getting the 2700 early on. The key is having 3 rails so one can use one to reference joining the others.

I do not like the 1400 nor 1900 legth, so have the 1600 made from two 800 as I got those at a very good price 2nd hand. If did not, would buy a 1900 and cut to to 1650-ish.

 

[tjbnwi]

A couple of things that are different on the 60.

If you prefer the Plug It system it is not native on the 60.

The hub that centers the blade on the arbor is on the removable washer not the arbor washer.

Tom

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=61254]mino[/member] My situation is not typical, but I really like the 1900 because I regularly cut 5' wide material (61") whether that is particle board of laminate sheets. Some may come across the need for it because of the 5 x 5 sizing of Baltic Birch ply. The wider sheets are also part of the reason for getting a 2424 (96") holey rail. It's too short for cutting 8' sheets lengthwise, but it does well with angled cuts across 5' material.
Plus, as stated before...I have a problem [embarassed]
The 3000 could do that job too, it's just a bit much, when not fully required.

 

[smorgasbord]

BTW, Sedge did a Festool Live on plunge cuts with the TSV-60:

It's a hot mess the way he does it.

Perhaps a better method would be to mark the start/stop locations on the saw itself instead of having to offset each measurement from the saw to the workpiece.

 

[mino]

[member=61254]mino[/member] My situation is not typical, but I really like the 1900 because I regularly cut 5' wide material (61") whether that is particle board of laminate sheets. Some may come across the need for it because of the 5 x 5 sizing of Baltic Birch ply. The wider sheets are also part of the reason for getting a 2424 (96") holey rail. It's too short for cutting 8' sheets lengthwise, but it does well with angled cuts across 5' material.
Plus, as stated before...I have a problem [embarassed]
The 3000 could do that job too, it's just a bit much, when not fully required.

Yeah, put "I" in bold for a reason. This is very much a personal preference.

Anyway, ever since I got to play with rails, I always found "wanting" for a 1600-ish mm long one way more often than not. Due to the high price of 1900, and a spare 1400 initialy I made one 1400 into two 376 and a 600 mm piece with one 376 semi-permanently attached to a 1400. But found that not work well - the connectors interfere with the rail square and other accessories, for connecting one really wants a 500+ mm piece at a minimum.

I still keep one "clean"  1400 which is the LR 32 one, but the go-tos are 1016 or the joined 1600 most of the time.

Anyway, one thing I would not do to my worst enemy is starting like me - only two 1400 and a 2700 as a "starting set". Lots of money out, and all wrong things with the setup:
- no sane length for full cross cuts
- no handy short rail
- no (sane) way for full length rip cuts
- no (sane) way to use 3rd rail as areference to join rails
Basically, I started the worst possible way I could ... the positive side is now I absolutely reliably know what NOT to buy initially. LOL.

I find the key is having rails of different lengths so one has the "right" one for the task on hand. That and having at least 3 rails so one can use one rail as a connecting reference. So the basic "starter set" is IMO 1080,1400 and 1900. That assume stock lengths and no cutting, of course.

I believe @ OPs current vision of a 1080, 1400 LR32 and a 1900 KP is probably the optimal minimal set as it includes both the "special" versions.

For me, starting now with same budget, I would probably go this way:
1) a 1080
2) a 1400 LR32
3) a 2424 LR32, cut into 1600 and 824
That gives all the "handy" rails and all the 1900, 2400 and 3000 lengths from "practical" joins of always only two rails.

Plus two sets of Makita connectors and the Festool FS/2 set with FS/WA.

---
After battles there are oh so many generals ... happy xmas!

 

[Coen]

This could really benefit from a table with required lengths, per saw type, in front of and behind the cut to clear the workpiece (at full depth) without going off the rail with either guide 'notch'.

[tongue]

 

[Crazyraceguy]

[member=61254]mino[/member] My situation is not typical, but I really like the 1900 because I regularly cut 5' wide material (61") whether that is particle board of laminate sheets. Some may come across the need for it because of the 5 x 5 sizing of Baltic Birch ply. The wider sheets are also part of the reason for getting a 2424 (96") holey rail. It's too short for cutting 8' sheets lengthwise, but it does well with angled cuts across 5' material.
Plus, as stated before...I have a problem [embarassed]
The 3000 could do that job too, it's just a bit much, when not fully required.

Yeah, put "I" in bold for a reason. This is very much a personal preference.

Anyway, ever since I got to play with rails, I always found "wanting" for a 1600-ish mm long one way more often than not. Due to the high price of 1900, and a spare 1400 initialy I made one 1400 into two 376 and a 600 mm piece with one 376 semi-permanently attached to a 1400. But found that not work well - the connectors interfere with the rail square and other accessories, for connecting one really wants a 500+ mm piece at a minimum.

I still keep one "clean"  1400 which is the LR 32 one, but the go-tos are 1016 or the joined 1600 most of the time.

Anyway, one thing I would not do to my worst enemy is starting like me - only two 1400 and a 2700 as a "starting set". Lots of money out, and all wrong things with the setup:
- no sane length for full cross cuts
- no handy short rail
- no (sane) way for full length rip cuts
- no (sane) way to use 3rd rail as areference to join rails
Basically, I started the worst possible way I could ... the positive side is now I absolutely reliably know what NOT to buy initially. LOL.

I find the key is having rails of different lengths so one has the "right" one for the task on hand. That and having at least 3 rails so one can use one rail as a connecting reference. So the basic "starter set" is IMO 1080,1400 and 1900. That assume stock lengths and no cutting, of course.

I believe @ OPs current vision of a 1080, 1400 LR32 and a 1900 KP is probably the optimal minimal set as it includes both the "special" versions.

For me, starting now with same budget, I would probably go this way:
1) a 1080
2) a 1400 LR32
3) a 2424 LR32, cut into 1600 and 824
That gives all the "handy" rails and all the 1900, 2400 and 3000 lengths from "practical" joins of always only two rails.

Plus two sets of Makita connectors and the Festool FS/2 set with FS/WA.

---
After battles there are oh so many generals ... happy xmas!

It seems we are very much in agreement and each of our needs requires a different set-up.
I was properly coached into getting the holey version of the 1400, when I bought the TS55. I wasn't really aware of it's value, at the time. The second one I got was 1080 to extend the 1400, with the horrible first version of the Festool connectors. (my biggest Festool regret) I aligned them with a 4' level, but never really felt comfortable with moving the assembly.
Because of some good advice from here, I went straight for the 3000, rather than 2700.
The 1900 came next, to fill in and keep me from having to join rails again. which is how the 2424 joined the fleet too. I really bought it for the LR/32 factor, but t has become a lot more useful to the saw than I would hace thought. The 800 was the latest addition. Many times it is too short for the saw and I need the 1080, but for a router or Domino, it's great. I use it enough to keep it around.

 

[ChuckM]

I had one of those Kreg crosscut guides, long before I stepped into the Festool world.
Problem one was that the thing wasn't square out of the box, and there was no way to adjust it.
Then my saw wouldn't fit the carriage.
I repurposed the rail by attaching squarely it to a shop made head to make a T-square, but it sat around unused until I finally ditched it.

I augment my HK55 with a Bosch "track ready" cordless that works on Festool tracks, and can be had for a few hundred less than a Festool saw. It works well for what it is, but is fiddly to work with compared to Festool saws. But, it might be an ok choice if you already have Bosch 18v batteries.

I returned mine, too. The demo video can be deceiving in that the start cuts could be a struggle for some, as well as the exit ones.

There's a reason why dust collection is not used in the video. The hose would make it harder to handle the circular saw while trying to keep it tight to the stock edge.

 

[Coen]

Note that the Festool bags are only available in 1400, 1900 and 3000
(and for the FSK rails 420 en 670)

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I returned mine, too. The demo video can be deceiving in that the start cuts could be a struggle for some, as well as the exit ones.

There's a reason why dust collection is not used in the video. The hose would make it harder to handle the circular saw while trying to keep it tight to the stock edge.

This is the exact reason that I continually make the joke to my apprentice "try that with your circular saw" every time I make a "less than simple" cut. This is usually something like a cut that is so long that I can't reach across the table. I cut as far as I can, shut the saw off, walk around to the othet side of the table and continue by pulling the saw to the end. Still getting a perfect cut. "Try that with your circular saw".... [big grin]
Those home-made substitutes for a track saw can only keep the saw from running off of the line in one direction.
It's the same with that Kreg rip-cut thing. It will keep the saw from cutting further into the sheet, but nothing prevents it from drifting outward.

 

[smorgasbord]

I just priced a TS-60 with a few rails and blades and it's almost $2k.

Gulp. Stuff adds up. Definitely going to build my own router table fence for sure now.

 

[sancho57]

I just priced a TS-60 with a few rails and blades and it's almost $2k.

Gulp. Stuff adds up. Definitely going to build my own router table fence for sure now.

and once ya drink the green kool aid, they will become addictive

 

[Jim_in_PA]

I just priced a TS-60 with a few rails and blades and it's almost $2k.

Gulp. Stuff adds up. Definitely going to build my own router table fence for sure now.

Yes, the initial investment is not low, but the longevity of the products tends to make that "cost per year of use" very attractive. Many of my Festool products were purchased in the mid-2000s. They look and work like new. The TS-60 is an excellent tracksaw. You can certainly use non-Festool tracks as so many "colors" are fully compatible with the saw. (although not necessarily compatible for ganging together) I have a "standard" ~55" rail, an 8-footer and a short 39" rail. The latter gets a lot of in-shop and in-house use.

 

[smorgasbord]

I just priced a TS-60 with a few rails and blades and it's almost $2k.

OK, just re-reviewed my shopping cart and it turns out I had the 1900 guide rail added twice - once as part of the TS-60 "kit" and then by itself. I'm now down to a bit over $1600 for the saw, 3 guide rails (1080, 1400, 1900), 2 additional blades (28 tooth solid wood and 52 tooth alum/plastic), a pack of splinter guards and two rail stops. Actually already have an adjustable miter square and some rail clamps. Need to add the Makita rail joiners.

What am I missing? I don't expect to do long rips often as I've got a nice tablesaw, but figure I can joint the 1900 with one of the other rails when needed.

 

[smorgasbord]

This purchase has gotten delayed multiple times now, but I'm still leaning towards the TS-60. Besides panel cross-cuts and big things trimming, I like the way the track saw makes these cuts straightforward (start at 10:54 in):
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[Packard]

I got my track saw to break down sheet goods for final cuts in my basement shop. 

Over time, I gained enough confidence in the track saw to make finished size cuts. 

I got two 55” tracks.  55” is enough to cut 48” on the board, but not long enough to rip long pieces. 

I also got TSO’s squaring arm (now made under license by Festool or possibly sold to Festool) a worthwhile purchase.

Also useful is two saw horses and a couple of sheets of 3” thick expanded foam wall insulation to act as a work table and to preserve the saw horses from death by a million cuts.

I use my track saw mainly on my driveway, so I needed a good extension cord.  Dust collection is always recommended, but I just blow the dust away with a leaf blower. 

A track saw is safer to use for large pieces than is a table saw. The only thing I regretted buying was a large T-square for laying out the cuts.  The squaring arm makes the T-Square unnecessary.  (Mine is still in its original packing, never used but with lots of saw dust on it.  A very unnecessary (and expensive) purchase.  Don’t make my mistake.)

 

[smorgasbord]

Thanks for all the replies and suggestions. I was just adding yet another use case to my justification list:

My tablesaw is quite good, and I haven't had any issues ripping 4x8 plywood sheets by myself since I have a workbench acting as an infeed table and I have both an attached to the saw outfeed table plus a roller stand further out. I have even ripped 17' long solid wood in my shop with the garage door open. Luckily, those were relatively narrow pieces for custom crown molding, so not heavy.

Where the track saw would have come in handy is:
1) Crosscutting sheet goods. I can just about do up to about 2' wide on my tablesaw sled, but much wider than that is impossible. Also, if the pieces are more than 4' (depending on width), that gets hard, too. Today I resort to a clamped straight edge and a router with compression spiral bit for those cross-cuts. This hasn't been a pressing issue for me as I went a long time between projects that used plywood.

2) Initial jointing of long solid wood. I have used a hand plane to get a straight-ish edge on long solid wood boards, followed up by the jointer, but it would be faster and easier just to lay a track down and cut.

3) Cutting glued up assemblies. I've only done this a couple of times with jerry-rigged guides and router, but seeing Mark Spangalo cut those leg assemblies with a TS60 with a set bevel was really great. And I would definitely need to be about cut 8/4 solid wood like he did (walnut), so that power and hopefully lack of blade deflection is important.

The other issue, which I alluded to above but should probably start a separate thread, is that my Bosch "glide" SCMS just isn't cutting it (pun intended) for anything but rough cut to length or narrow stock. I've been naturally hesitant to spend 3X that to get the Kapex, and that's because while I'm sure the Kapex is better, I don't think it's going to be as accurate as the track saw for cross cuts and angled/beveled cuts in wide and/or long stock.

For cutting down plywood sheets after ripping, I'm not sure how I'd setup. Space in my 2 car garage shop is already at a premium. What I initially set up as an assembly table now holds a small CNC and a bunch of stuff I need to find another place for. I'd probably just continue to support the plywood on my workbench and tablesaw top (which has a good extension wing). I thought about the foam panel, but then I'd have to find a place to store it. I don't have storage for 4x8 panels in my shop.

 

[mino]

Some notes:

- you do not need some huge 8x4 insulation boards ... just enough smaller ones to lift the sheet off the table, takes little space in practice
- with a tracksaw, you do not have to manipulate a sheet:
  - place the sheet on a surface
  - clear the reference edge, then do the respective first rip or cross cut(s)
  - take the smaller piece(s) and put sideways
  - continue cutting up the bigger piece until done
  - take the first smaller piece(s) to the cutting surface are finish cutting up

Sure, above is not the most efficient workflow in a big shop. But in a small shop the advantage of not having to fiddle around with the sheets after the rips is huge to me.

As an initial cutting surface two to three 1" thick 2x4" EPS boards are absolutey adequate. Rememebr, the whole sheet does not need to be supported, just lifted a bit off a table. The rail will "copy" the contour of the sheet to an extent, so the sheet does not have to be on an absolutely even surface either.

Ah, one more, you will inevitably end up looking at the TSO parallel guides .. but first, just get the tracksaw and get your hands dirty to get a feel. One can absolutely work with just the tracksaw, the rails and pencil marks.

 

[smorgasbord]

Some notes:
...
Ah, one more, you will inevitably end up looking at the TSO parallel guides .. but first, just get the tracksaw and get your hands dirty to get a feel. One can absolutely work with just the tracksaw, the rails and pencil marks.

Thanks for the notes and suggestions, but I will not be looking parallel guides which, to me, seem a finicky jerry-rig for what the tablesaw is best at, and which I have no problems doing at any practical width/length.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Some notes:
...
Ah, one more, you will inevitably end up looking at the TSO parallel guides .. but first, just get the tracksaw and get your hands dirty to get a feel. One can absolutely work with just the tracksaw, the rails and pencil marks.

Thanks for the notes and suggestions, but I will not be looking parallel guides which, to me, seem a finicky jerry-rig for what the tablesaw is best at, and which I have no problems doing at any practical width/length.

Then get the Mafell cordless track saw. The Mafell track is superior except that it can’t accommodate a parallel rig. To save a little money you can buy the Bosch branded track, which is actually made by Mafell.