Woodpeckers ultimate doweling jig ...

[teocaf]

Should this type of thread become a regular feature under the heading:  What WP Tool Did You Not Buy Today?
It seems that as soon as I get an email from WP describing their latest offering there will be a thread started on here bashing it.  I get all sorts of emails about all kinds of new tool introductions, but I wonder what is it about this brand that sets people to comment?
To be sure, I've also had issues with some of the terms/marketing lingo used in WP videos; I'm sure I can find that past diatribe on here if I bothered to look, but today I think I will put my own slant on this particular thread:
I hope that the WP company continues to grow and prosper.  I've talked to some of their wonderful folk at several wood shows.  Perhaps the issue here is not with the WP tools themselves but rather with lack of imagination of those who sit around building nothing--just a thought, an opinion, a theory...

I still find it extremely interesting that these threads build up to many pages while most of the threads where people post project photos get only a smattering of replies.  Yet, invariably when the subject of "fixing" this forum rolls around, the number one suggestion is for people to post more projects.  Go figure...

So there you go:  I've reached my weekly self-imposed limit of "contributions" to forums and wasted most of it by lengthening this utterly useless discussion (what's that saying that ends in: ...there's three fingers pointing back at me) 
...And that's my Saturday editorial folks!

 

[Ajax]

You can't compare this jig to a Domino.

Sure you can.  It's just another joinery tool.  Each has its uses and price range.

 

[Ajax]

Maybe that whole community that's out there isn't quite as large as originally thought?  [eek]

The 2 largest communities I see are the hand saw & chisel group and the Duo Dowler/Domino group.

By community I cast a wide net..offline, online, wherever.  Consider this, when I go to a big box store I only see: screws, nails, Kreg pocket hole jigs, chisels, dowels, and biscuits.  Much greater exposure there to average DIY, construction, and entry level woodworkers there.  I suspect this offering is for more advanced woodworkers who are happy using dowels and want to move up in accuracy.  I suspect WP will make a small batch and see how it goes.  Kudos to them for putting out new products and being nimble in their manufacturing.

 

[Kev]

You can't compare this jig to a Domino.

Sure you can.  It's just another joinery tool.  Each has its uses and price range.

Well I stand corrected ... I suppose you can compare bicycle to a jumbo jet if you really want. They're just forms of transport.

 

[Ajax]

You can't compare this jig to a Domino.

Sure you can.  It's just another joinery tool.  Each has its uses and price range.

Well I stand corrected ... I suppose you can compare bicycle to a jumbo jet if you really want. They're just forms of transport.

Great jumps of logic and scale!

Anyhow I'm done here.  Discussions here are like picking at scabs.

 

[clark_fork]

The WP Jig is an innovative step in dowel joinery. The fence system and the cam system will likely be an influential  inspiration to other tool makers. 100 years from now, it will probably command a great fortune to antique tool buyers who will look back on our generation with awe and bewilderment.  I am giving it serious consideration but gosh.... that is a lot of money..

For those thinking about a dowel joint from time to time, here is an alternative. (Metric). Look carefully at the pictures, there are some amazing design similarities to the WP Jig but I think this is worth looking at if you from time to time find an application.
https://www.aliexpress.com/store/pr...ecise-Drilling-Tools/1113883_32434778451.html

 

[rvieceli]

[member=49013]clark_fork[/member]

Perhaps you didn't realize it BUT your link is a Chinese knockoff of a former Woodpecker OTT form 2014
http://www.woodpeck.com/ottmtdoweljig.html

 

[Cheese]

Thanks for posting that OTT link Ron...I forgot all about Woodpeckers offering that one. So it seems that instead of just reviving that tool, they wanted to actually improve its functioning & usefulness. That's a positive move.

 

[rvieceli]

So it seems that instead of just reviving that tool, they wanted to actually improve its functioning & usefulness. That's a positive move.

Or maybe call me cynical BUT it might have more to do with the fact that they just re-released that 2014 one  last fall and re-retired it in January this year.

 

[Nat X]

I too am confused by the need to bash these things. It looks like it would be really, really useful to someone regardless of whether or not that someone happens to be me. If even one person loves this thing then it was worth every bit of effort it took to produce it as I'm sure they learned a lot from the process.

 

[Kev]

I too am confused by the need to bash these things. It looks like it would be really, really useful to someone regardless of whether or not that someone happens to be me. If even one person loves this thing then it was worth every bit of effort it took to produce it as I'm sure they learned a lot from the process.

Here's the problem [member=41196]Nat X[/member] .. the OTT model means you need to buy many months in advance, with a high degree of faith and no reliable review from trusted independent sources. You're buying in the hope that it's good and you're also softly blackmailed that you won't get one if you don't pre order as you risk missing out on something that "may" be useful.

This jig is massively expensive for a dowel jig, even relative to other WP offerings, so I started this thread wanting to know what is so 'ultimate' about it.

Add to its massive price, I believe it's massive weight would make it cumbersome to use properly .. something that was completely avoided in their video as far as I could see.

If it's no more than a finely machined, imperial calibrated, heavy dowel jig with a cool hole alignment setup .. that's fine - but then people like me can ignore it.

When it comes to "bashing", an honest and critical view of something that you need to buy months in advance, gambling on it real usefulness is totally appropriate. Nobody seems to have been able to offer a sound reason for buying this jig or a unique application that significantly differentiates it from all alternatives.

My motivation here is that I like to use nice tools and despite my loathing of the OTT model, I would endure the annoyance if there was a tangible benefit.

 

[Cheese]

I think the issue with this particular OTT has always been the price point. I feel many of the features of this tool were addressed very elegantly, especially the variable dowel spacing. Nice and straight forward a Woodpeckers hallmark. However, had it been offered at the $350-$400 price point, I think it would have been received differently. When you're in the $800 strata for a mechanical tool, minus electricity, you need to be keenly aware of your competitors and possibly approach the market differently. 

At 800+ pesos, there are a lot of alternatives out there.  I think this thread is just pointing out the many options that are available at that price point. For me, I'd purchase this item at the $400 price because I enjoy nicely machined mechanical items and can appreciate the craftsmanship involved. Be it motorcycles, watches or handguns, they all are a labor of love and are all beautiful in their own context. However, this price point pushes the limits.

However, if I may add...kudos to Woodpeckers because I want to support them because as much as I rail against them, who else is willing to spend their hard earned $$ chasing the needs of fickle woodworker's?

They have provided from time to time many items that others were unwilling to go out on a limb for. I want to support their support for us...just not this time.  [crying]

 

[ear3]

Agreed.

I think the issue with this particular OTT has always been the price point. I feel many of the features of this tool were addressed very elegantly, especially the variable dowel spacing. Nice and straight forward a Woodpeckers hallmark. However, had it been offered at the $350-$400 price point, I think it would have been received differently. When you're in the $800 strata for a mechanical tool, minus electricity, you need to be keenly aware of your competitors and possibly approach the market differently. 

At 800+ pesos, there are a lot of alternatives out there.  I think this thread is just pointing out the many options that are available at that price point. For me, I'd purchase this item at the $400 price because I enjoy nicely machined mechanical items and can appreciate the craftsmanship involved. Be it motorcycles, watches or handguns, they all are a labor of love and are all beautiful in their own context. However, this price point pushes the limits.

However, if I may add...kudos to Woodpeckers because I want to support them because as much as I rail against them, who else is willing to spend their hard earned $$ chasing the needs of fickle woodworker's?

They have provided from time to time many items that others were unwilling to go out on a limb for. I want to support their support for us...just not this time.  [crying]

 

[Nat X]

I too am confused by the need to bash these things. It looks like it would be really, really useful to someone regardless of whether or not that someone happens to be me. If even one person loves this thing then it was worth every bit of effort it took to produce it as I'm sure they learned a lot from the process.

Here's the problem [member=41196]Nat X[/member] .. the OTT model means you need to buy many months in advance, with a high degree of faith and no reliable review from trusted independent sources. You're buying in the hope that it's good and you're also softly blackmailed that you won't get one if you don't pre order as you risk missing out on something that "may" be useful.

This jig is massively expensive for a dowel jig, even relative to other WP offerings, so I started this thread wanting to know what is so 'ultimate' about it.

Add to its massive price, I believe it's massive weight would make it cumbersome to use properly .. something that was completely avoided in their video as far as I could see.

If it's no more than a finely machined, imperial calibrated, heavy dowel jig with a cool hole alignment setup .. that's fine - but then people like me can ignore it.

When it comes to "bashing", an honest and critical view of something that you need to buy months in advance, gambling on it real usefulness is totally appropriate. Nobody seems to have been able to offer a sound reason for buying this jig or a unique application that significantly differentiates it from all alternatives.

My motivation here is that I like to use nice tools and despite my loathing of the OTT model, I would endure the annoyance if there was a tangible benefit.

Here's the problem with your argument: You're offering an "honest review" of a thing you've just seen a picture of a few minutes ago. The most appropriate term for this behavior is probably closer to "attention whoring" than anything you're using to describe your most charitable service of saving us all from our own presumed lack of decision making abilities.

Here's another problem with your argument: Woodpeckers takes one time tools back if you don't like them. They even refund the shipping. "Blackmail" is more than a little hyperbolic and more than a little desperate.

Here's a third problem with your argument: People sit around complaining about the lack of innovation Festool displays when they release yet another tired incremental improvement on some existing product instead of trying anything new, and then those same people sit around complaining when anyone else actually does try anything new. Nobody seems to have been able to offer a sound reason for listening to you, yet you just keep on posting.

Few people here build anything even remotely novel with all the thousands and thousands of dollars worth of tools they hoard. Everyone's seen a window casing, an end table, a cutting board and a cupboard. All of these things can be described as overpriced garbage by a person who has no use for them, yet we all keep on making them because we all want the next one to be just a little bit better in some intangible way very few people will ever actually notice. Whatever you happen to be making, your work only becomes overpriced garbage when you lose your ability to respect that process and do absolutely nothing with your time but dump all over people who do all day long.

I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for this tool. That doesn't make it bad, and it certainly doesn't make it worth ranting about on the internet just because I'm bored and lonely. It looks like it was a lot of fun to make and while I doubt they'll sell millions, that's not everybody's goal in life.

 

[Kev]

I too am confused by the need to bash these things. It looks like it would be really, really useful to someone regardless of whether or not that someone happens to be me. If even one person loves this thing then it was worth every bit of effort it took to produce it as I'm sure they learned a lot from the process.

Here's the problem [member=41196]Nat X[/member] .. the OTT model means you need to buy many months in advance, with a high degree of faith and no reliable review from trusted independent sources. You're buying in the hope that it's good and you're also softly blackmailed that you won't get one if you don't pre order as you risk missing out on something that "may" be useful.

This jig is massively expensive for a dowel jig, even relative to other WP offerings, so I started this thread wanting to know what is so 'ultimate' about it.

Add to its massive price, I believe it's massive weight would make it cumbersome to use properly .. something that was completely avoided in their video as far as I could see.

If it's no more than a finely machined, imperial calibrated, heavy dowel jig with a cool hole alignment setup .. that's fine - but then people like me can ignore it.

When it comes to "bashing", an honest and critical view of something that you need to buy months in advance, gambling on it real usefulness is totally appropriate. Nobody seems to have been able to offer a sound reason for buying this jig or a unique application that significantly differentiates it from all alternatives.

My motivation here is that I like to use nice tools and despite my loathing of the OTT model, I would endure the annoyance if there was a tangible benefit.

Here's the problem with your argument: You're offering an "honest review" of a thing you've just seen a picture of a few minutes ago. The most appropriate term for this behavior is probably closer to "attention whoring" than anything you're using to describe your most charitable service of saving us all from our own presumed lack of decision making abilities.

Here's another problem with your argument: Woodpeckers takes one time tools back if you don't like them. They even refund the shipping. "Blackmail" is more than a little hyperbolic and more than a little desperate.

Here's a third problem with your argument: People sit around complaining about the lack of innovation Festool displays when they release yet another tired incremental improvement on some existing product instead of trying anything new, and then those same people sit around complaining when anyone else actually does try anything new. Nobody seems to have been able to offer a sound reason for listening to you, yet you just keep on posting.

Few people here build anything even remotely novel with all the thousands and thousands of dollars worth of tools they hoard. Everyone's seen a window casing, an end table, a cutting board and a cupboard. All of these things can be described as overpriced garbage by a person who has no use for them, yet we all keep on making them because we all want the next one to be just a little bit better in some intangible way very few people will ever actually notice. Whatever you happen to be making, your work only becomes overpriced garbage when you lose your ability to respect that process and do absolutely nothing with your time but dump all over people who do all day long.

I wouldn't give you a plugged nickel for this tool. That doesn't make it bad, and it certainly doesn't make it worth ranting about on the internet just because I'm bored and lonely. It looks like it was a lot of fun to make and while I doubt they'll sell millions, that's not everybody's goal in life.

So [member=41196]Nat X[/member] it seems you are also completely incapable of identifying a unique capability of this jig. Thank you for exhausting you mental resources on the topic.

Nice colour in your response too. You must be sleepy after all of that typing. Go and have a little nap - you'll feel much better.

 

[peter halle]

Well,  guess it is time to step in and try and prevent further bad feelings here.

This thread is now locked.  If people want to talk about this tool in another thread then we will see how that one goes.

Peter Halle - Moderator