woodworker wanna be asks about J/P

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doc4som

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Mar 18, 2012
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Reading here the suggestions, they seem to lean to: never go under 8in for the (parallelogram) jointer & get the widest possible. For planers also get the widest budget will allow. Felder when possible, jointer/planer combo is OK. MY questions: (1)Are J/P combos parallelogram? If not should I only look at separate s if there is room?(2)with a budget around $6500 & plenty of 220 outlets are Grizzly machines with spiral cutterheads(G0609 12"x83" P.jointer $$2500) and (G0454Z 20" planer at $2500) a bad move? .How about the Grizzly G0634Xp 12in J/P combo at $2200? In my research Felder seems better but at $10,000. Powermatic & Jet seem same as Grizzly but +$. Express your wisdom , please. I do not want to buy something I am going to regret. Thank you
 
Disclaimer!!! I am not experienced in this domain.

I've been researching this space extensively and I'm still on the fence, but I think I have some worthwhile thinking.

Spiral cutters are a must if you're buying new - why pay up front for inferior? They're quieter and SO much easier to maintain over time.

Separates are much better if you have the space and the $'s - no doubt in my mind here.

Long wide beds are better than short narrow beds. Bigger and flatter is better (but also consider your projects - it's all relative to your needs).

Calibration control is critical.

Then you have to consider service, support, spares, warranty ... Even down in Oz, Hammer is a very attractive player in this space.

You can get some amazing big old iron in this space - but you MUST know what you're looking at ... there'll be lots of lemons out there.
 
If you do your research you will find that carbide actually gives an inferior cut as compared with HSS or Cobalt HSS. This comes from trades people that use this type of cutter. The trade off is you get a long lasting edge with carbide. Demonstrations at the IWF at the Felder booth showed there was no significant difference in cut between their standard HSS cutter head and the new Silent Power cutter head they developed. They really did their homework on this new head after looking closely at the Byrd head. The belief that a segmented cutter head produces a superior cut, at least with the Felder/Hammer machines, is a false assumption. I can't speak for other brands I've only owned Felder and Hammer, but I work closely with an exotic wood distributor and they don't seem to have any trouble planing any exotics figured or not with there straight blade jointer and planers, contrary to the current fad. Personal use has also shown me that I have no problem planing figured wood on HSS blades. On the pro side for getting a segmented carbide head, if your working with a lot of extremely hard exotics the carbide will last longer than HSS. The con to this is the length of time it takes to change out or rotate the the carbide inserts. The segmented heads are quieter but still not quiet enough to go with ear protection. A longer table is better if the stock your jointing is always going to be long. As Kev said separates are nice but my change over time from jointing to planing is only about 1 minute. There is no comparison to fit and finish Laguna to Felder. When I first started looking at getting higher end equipment the crappy fit and finish is what turned me off Laguna and that was before they went Asian. I personally consider Felder and Festool both try to work to same high standards of quality and not trying to be the Walmart of equipment. The Hammer A3-41 (16") is currently selling in the US for around $5200.00 and I believe the Silent Cutter option would add about $650.00. I have no connection to Felder, just a happy customer.

John
 
I will echo Junk's observations with the exception of the new Silent Power cutterhead which I have not seen in action.

To go separates, the smallest jointer I would consider is an 8" and often that is not wide enough particularly if you mill your own lumber from the rough. 

It is somewhat of a long and irrelevant story, but I managed to gather both Felder and Minimax 16" J/P combos in my shop.  Neither is a "parallelogram" mechanism.  The Felder uses what they term a 'prismatic' system for table movement.  Neither has given me any problems and both have provided great results and have required no adjustments.  IMHO, the parallelogram design is a solution to a problem that shouldn't exist had manufacturers properly machined and cured their products.  When a manufacturer advertises parallelogram, it shouts out to me that they didn't take enough care in the manufacturing of their machines and had to provide adjustability everywhere to correct it.  I will probably get flamed by some but, I have been down the Grizzly road 3 times before (none with J/Ps) and I will never ever purchase them again.  I have since sold every one of those pieces of junk and good riddance but YMMV.

What cutterhead you choose largely depends on what materials you usually work with.  If you use a lot of highly figured woods, spiral is a great choice.  If you use a lot of woods that are high in silica, carbide is a necessity.  The carbide edges are not nearly as sharp as HSS but they do last longer. 

For the budget you specified, the only two J/P combos I would consider would be the Hammer and Minimax.  You could also find a used Felder AD741 within your budget.
 
I am not going to flame you, but I went through 3 Kapex, yet I still get Festools. And actually NONE of my Grizzly have ever failed me. Take from that what you want.

You were simply unlucky with Grizzly as I was with Festool.  I don't hold it against Festool. By holding a grudge against Grizzly you simply exclude yourself from some really nice tools. It's possible you did not do your homework as some of the Grizzly tools are far better than others. Just as some of the Festools are better than others. If everyone thought like you every person that got a bad kapex, a bad jig saw, a burning Plug it would never use Festool again, yet they do.

I would keep an open mind, Grizzly comes out with new stuff and some of it is really great, some of it not so much. I assure you they are no Harbor Freight.
 
Dovetail65 said:
You were simply unlucky with Grizzly as I was with Festool.  I don't hold it against Festool. By holding a grudge against Grizzly you simply exclude yourself from some really nice tools.
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I think it's important to note a big difference here.

Festool manufactures what they sell, and when quality issues surface they can address them, continually improving a product.

Grizzly is just an importer. They get their machines from different manufacturers, and from different countries. When quality (or cost) issues surface, importers often just switch manufacturers, effectively replacing a product with something else.

Like that proverbial box of chocolates, you never know what you're gonna get.  [smile]
 
I have the 15" grizzly with shelix head and this is a great planer, no doubt about it.  I could go on and on about how great it has served me, but I'll keep it simple, it's a great planer.  Ive had two hss planers before the griz, the shelix head is just amazing and can hog off material.  It's so much quieter than  my  old three blade planer too.  I can't believe how long the cutters last either.  The feed mechanism is flawless and the spiral head leaves a wonderful finish.  Any scalloping sands out so easily it's a nonissue, but it's rarely noticeable.  I can't praise my grizzly planer enough, my 2 cents.
 
Dovetail65 said:
I am not going to flame you, but I went through 3 Kapex, yet I still get Festools. And actually NONE of my Grizzly have ever failed me. Take from that what you want.

You were simply unlucky with Grizzly as I was with Festool.  I don't hold it against Festool. By holding a grudge against Grizzly you simply exclude yourself from some really nice tools. It's possible you did not do your homework as some of the Grizzly tools are far better than others. Just as some of the Festools are better than others. If everyone thought like you every person that got a bad kapex, a bad jig saw, a burning Plug it would never use Festool again, yet they do.

I would keep an open mind, Grizzly comes out with new stuff and some of it is really great, some of it not so much. I assure you they are no Harbor Freight.
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As I stated. YMMV.  Your assumption about the amount of homework I do is simply incorrect.  Regardless, I don't hold any grudge against Grizzly as they simply are what they are.  Grizzly is cheap machinery and I got exactly what I paid for, nothing more and nothing less.  If Grizzly is great now, fantastic - perhaps they have learned from their past mistakes.  I too, have learned from my past mistakes therefore, I will simply be happy living in my ignorance as no Grizzly machine will ever again cross the threshold of my shop.  
 
Thank you Kev , Junk,Steve, Dovetail .And Joraft you know I am the same guy at Talkfestool. I was talking with the technical dept at Grizzly & they could only tell me wether a machine was built in Taiwan or China & if built in an ISO 9001 factory or not IN MOST CASES. They were not  be certain if a machine was built better than another as is  generally the case with JET vs Powermatic. Your (all of you) observations add to my understanding of how to approach a purchase. As in life, one has to have some luck when buying tools.Grizzly is alluring when they show master craftmen & pros using their equipment exclusively. I am trying to learn before I buy because I already got burned when I bought the most expensive miter saw (prior to Kapex & Bosch) and it cannot hold a line.              Steve, I talked to the  Felder rep in Sacramento today & he says the in feed table in the A3 41 is parallelogram, the outfeed is fixed! i Is your Felder older or is he just not correct? Joraft the pictures you show , could you tell me more what I am looking at?Thank guys
 
doc4som said:
Steve, I talked to the  Felder rep in Sacramento today & he says the in feed table in the A3 41 is parallelogram, the outfeed is fixed! i Is your Felder older or is he just not correct? Joraft the pictures you show , could you tell me more what I am looking at?Thank guys
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I am not familiar with the Hammer model you are talking about and am not sure if it is the same as my Felder.  I have a 2005 model year Felder AD741 and it rides on 4 trapezoidal shaped ways (not dovetailed) on both the infeed and outfeed tables.  It moves in a linear motion (similar to dovetailed ways) by the stroke of a handle that is very rapid unlike a screw handle.  A parallelogram control moves the table in an arc that matches the cutterhead basically keeping the same distance from the cutterhead to the lip of the table.  I am not sure about the knowledge level of the Felder sales staff on the west coast other than Fergus who should know for sure or Carl in southern CA.
See the pictures below for the Felder mechanism;
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Thank you Steve, I talked to Fergus & he clarified the subject. Thanks for the pictures, they make a huge difference to my understanding the text.
 
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