Workshop Air Quality Study

[Stone Message]

Hello Everyone

I am about to undertake a small study of workshop air quality. I will (I hope) be borrowing a very up market machine that will give continuous readouts of dust particles in various sizes. I aim to look at different machine scenarios (probably all Festool as I have not much else), different materials and with different means of dust collection.

I would welcome any ideas, suggestions or experience from the FOG.

Does anyone know if there has been any definitive work done in this area? In the UK there is very little and I have spoken to several professional woodworkers, with large workshops, and they know very little. One chap needs to get some measurements done for his insurance but cannot find out how to go about it.

So, I will look at your input with interest.

When my work is done I will publish here on the FOG.

Peter

 

[srzsrz]

In case you hadn't already run across it... www.billpentz.com is full of information on the topic, with references and all.

 

[jonathan-m]

Unless there's a powerful HEPA ambient air cleaner, in combination with a good dust extractor at work, I suspect we'll be surprised at the results, in a negative way. Even though almost all the visible dust is collected by our tools, the smallest particles, which are the ones that are harmful, still float around I suspect.

That's why I have a HEPA ambient cleaner, a HEPA filter in my shopvac and always wear a HEPA mask. Just because we can't see it, doesn't mean it isn't there.
I've been wanting to get a dylos particle meter for some time now, but there's always something else to spend the money on

In any case, I wish I had 4 hands, so I could give this 4 thumbs up. As an asthmatic, I'm really looking forward to your tests & findings Peter! About time someone put some serious effort into this stuff!!

 

[sgryd]

Great.
I'm looking forward to it.

I have a particle meter in my shop. Haven't done any structured metering, but I have it running all the time when I'm in the shop. After a while I have learned how the dust behaves, sort of.. A couple of days ago I did my best to put extreme amounts dust in the air. I sanded MDF down to 400 and blew the dust into the air with the air gun. Particle meter went from about 200-300 particles/cubic feet to 35,000. After that I turned on my CT26 which is in the attic, i.e. the dust gets out of the room. I also let the Felder dust collector running (it has a membrane filter). After about 4-5 minutes particle levels where down to about 5,000.

I also have an electro-static air cleaner in the ceiling running. When I got back to the shop after a while the levels where down to around 100. Mind you I have never metered anything below 500 inside my house. And if we have lit candles and cooked inside the levels are easily up to a couple of thousands in our home.

I think it's really hard to make anything out of the absolute numbers. But the change in the numbers at different wood working tasks is really interesting. I usually put on a mask if I have to create dust levels in the thousands, particularly if the dust is really bad (MDF, Teak).

//Michael

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Michael

Can your particle meter measure different size particles? What make and model is the meter?

It would be really useful to try out different machines cutting different materials (ie solid wood v MDF) to see what figures you get.

Peter

 

[sgryd]

My machine is a Dylos DC 1100 EMI.
http://www.dylosproducts.com/dcproforairp.html

It measures 0,5 um and 2,5 um particles. It can be calibrated for even smaller particles (down to 0,3). But after discussing my use with Dylos they recommended 0,5. I bought the EMI-version since I have an electrostatic air cleaner in my shop.

Here is the same machine without ability to meaure directly above the air cleaner (if its electrostatic):
http://www.dylosproducts.com/ornodcproair.html

If you think out the tests you're going through I might be able to replicate some of them so we can compare the results.
//Michael

 

[Stone Message]

My machine is a Dylos DC 1100 EMI.
http://www.dylosproducts.com/dcproforairp.html

It measures 0,5 um and 2,5 um particles. It can be calibrated for even smaller particles (down to 0,3). But after discussing my use with Dylos they recommended 0,5. I bought the EMI-version since I have an electrostatic air cleaner in my shop.

Here is the same machine without ability to meaure directly above the air cleaner (if its electrostatic):
http://www.dylosproducts.com/ornodcproair.html

If you think out the tests you're going through I might be able to replicate some of them so we can compare the results.
//Michael

Michael, This would be brilliant. I am not quite ready to created the test schedule but I will send a copy of the spreadsheet to you when it is finished.

If anyone else would like to participate then your help would be most welcome. My aim is to try and provide some clear advice, in simple English and with as little technical jargon as possible so that everyone can benefit. The results will be used in a video and in a written article.

Peter

 

[Timtool]

The part at 5min is very interesting:



http://woodgears.ca/dust/dylos.html

 

[jonathan-m]

Intrestnig video Timtool. Thanks!

 

[dicktill]

Hi all, and especially to Peter for starting this thread (and thanks for your great video's on various subjects [thumbs up]),

I'm fairly new to woodworking and "the slippery green slope". I've spent a lot of money in the last year on woodworking tools, mostly Festool. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.  [eek]  It's enough to make a newbie want to back out ...  And then, I read some threads on dust collection, which lead me to Bill Pentz's website. Ouch, perhaps I should stick with metal working!!!  [crying]  Anyway, I now realize that if I want to continue with this new hobby and keep my health and that of my bride, I need some serious dust collection, most likely a Clear Vue CV1800 Cyclone as recommended by Bill. Here's the dilemma: I already own an Hitachi C12RSH 12” compound sliding miter saw; bought it last year working on serious house remodeling, before I had even heard of Festool. It is fine for me at the moment (and probably will be for a long time, maybe forever) except for the amount of dust it spews all over the place. I can't afford to get a CV1800 and a Kapek too. If I build a serious and well designed dust collection hood/box for the Hitachi, hooked almost directly to the CV1800, will this suffice?

Also thinking of adding a "tray" under the MFT/3 top, also tied into the CV1800, to serve as a downdraft table.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick

 

[Scott B.]

This is an important topic to me, as my profession (painting) is rich in potentially invisible airborne organic and non-organic matter in dust, offgas, vaporized and atomized forms.

Common sense goes an awful long way here.

If there is one quality that I want in my shop or field based workspace, above all else, it is ventiliation. The ability to move air away from the person doing the work. The ability to remove and replace air. This is very important for your health.

A study could say that there are 10 parts per million or 10,000 parts per million. What would that really mean to us?

Use good personal protection equipment, appropriate to your tasks.
Use good dust containment on your tools.
Keep your space clean.
Move air.

Keep it simple.

 

[Stone Message]

Hi all, and especially to Peter for starting this thread (and thanks for your great video's on various subjects [thumbs up]),

I'm fairly new to woodworking and "the slippery green slope". I've spent a lot of money in the last year on woodworking tools, mostly Festool. The more I learn, the more I realize how little I know.  [eek]  It's enough to make a newbie want to back out ...  And then, I read some threads on dust collection, which lead me to Bill Pentz's website. Ouch, perhaps I should stick with metal working!!!  [crying]  Anyway, I now realize that if I want to continue with this new hobby and keep my health and that of my bride, I need some serious dust collection, most likely a Clear Vue CV1800 Cyclone as recommended by Bill. Here's the dilemma: I already own an Hitachi C12RSH 12” compound sliding miter saw; bought it last year working on serious house remodeling, before I had even heard of Festool. It is fine for me at the moment (and probably will be for a long time, maybe forever) except for the amount of dust it spews all over the place. I can't afford to get a CV1800 and a Kapek too. If I build a serious and well designed dust collection hood/box for the Hitachi, hooked almost directly to the CV1800, will this suffice?

Also thinking of adding a "tray" under the MFT/3 top, also tied into the CV1800, to serve as a downdraft table.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks, Dick

I was lucky when I discovered Festool as I was then looking for a replacement for my old radial arm saw. I had already sold off some of my big machines and so the process was quite easy (although the credit card took a few hits). I have slowly replaced other machines (like the old Lamello) and I am very pleased.

Be in no doubt, the Festool machines are designed to give the very best dust collection capability possible and linked with a CT (I have the CTL 26) you cannot go far wrong.

Even so, we need to look at dust levels and even Festool recommend that appropriate precautions are taken whilst using their tools.

I have seen an MFT3 set up as a down draft table - it is a brilliant idea. Remember it needs more than a CT to create the down draft. Festool extractors are High Pressure Low Volume (HPLV) and you need High Volume Low Pressure (HVLP) like that from a chip extractor with a 4 inch (or bigger) hose.

Peter

 

[dicktill]

... Remember it needs more than a CT to create the down draft. Festool extractors are High Pressure Low Volume (HPLV) and you need High Volume Low Pressure (HVLP) like that from a chip extractor with a 4 inch (or bigger) hose.

Yes, the Clear Vue CV1800 is a 1442 CFM cyclone (http://www.clearvuecyclones.com/9-cv1800-series) and uses 6" ducts/hoses, so it should be powerful enough for this. Also have a CT 26 to hook to individual tools.

Still looking for opinions on whether this can handle the dust ("regular" and fine) spewing from a non-Festool miter saw. Or do I really need a Kapex and/or work outside to avoid breathing lots of fine dust?

Thanks, Dick

 

[Stone Message]

Hi Dick, You may not want to rush off right now to buy your Kapex but I know that it is a vast improvement on other mitre saws that I have used. You will still get some chippings near the back of the saw but nothing like the dust that you get from other saws. I used to have a dust catcher, connected to my big chip extractor, at the back of my radial arm saw to try and catch the dust that the connected HPLV extractor lost and the Kapex beats that with just the CT26.

Peter

 

[cgmojoco]

Peter -

Keeping this thread on the surface I hope.
I am also interested in your findings and those of others...I started a thread not to long ago about my own quest for knowledge on the subject but I don't have a dylos or any plans to get one.
There are only two manufacturers that produce tools in mobility and dust extraction class of Festool and Festool is the only one that makes for good customer service in the US.  So let's get that out of the way.  I am not worried at all that my Festools are top of the line (literally) tools in terms of air quality and general tool quality.
I'm confident that Festool makes the work environment as clean as you can get with out of the box tools on a job site.
Alas, I'm still wondering if my Festools are providing clean enough air in day to day work in an enclosed shop environment as my only shop tools.  Curious to see what you find.

Will chime in at some point on how we can improve above and beyond what Festool already gives us for the enclosed shop environment---some new ideas and some plans for a shop downdraft table (Still testing in flow simulator for optimal results).

Christopher