Yacht Joinery - Adhesive advice

[Guy Ashley]

I have been commissioned to do some teak joinery for a yacht, seating and footboards mainly, and my initial thoughts for the adhesive is Cascamite, which is a Urea Formaldehyde Resin which I have always used for my exterior joinery, doors and windows etc and never had a glue failure yet.

However when this yacht is launched it's maiden voyage will be Norway, Iceland and Greenland, so it is not only going to get wet but be subject to very low temperatures.

I have never done any exterior furniture for a yacht before and I seem to remember that there are some FOG members who have or are boat builders but cannot find any relevant threads.

The timber is marine quality teak but I have heard of the West system adhesives, never used them, so interested to hear any views and experiences.

I use Titebond 3 for dark timbers it is an "exterior" adhesive and has passed ANSI/HPVA Type 1 water resistance tests, but would it be able to pass the extremes of cold and wet?

 

[richard.selwyn]

Guy,
You seem to be getting very busy! I use titebond 3 as well, but when I ad a boat I'm pretty sur we used West Systems. Just don't buy the stuff from a chandlery as they are always way more expensive. Axminster sticks it if you don't have a local source. I hope wiser and more experienced members will chime in, as we sold our boat befor anything really had time to fail. - and always tried to avoid going anywhere too cold
Richard

 

[peter halle]

Guy,

I can't give any advice specific to your situation, but after a very brief exposure to the marine industry in the yachting capital of the US, I would not trust the Titebond 3 glue.  In case you haven't seen this (you may have)  here is a link to the West Systems User Guides:  West Systems User Guides.

Check these out.

Peter

EDIT:  One of our members works on yachts in Italy and recently posted I think on high gloss finishes for teak.  I will look him up for you.  That member is danjames.

 

[leakyroof]

Although you'll probably never find him lurking here, there is a guy over at Sawmill Creek[woodworking forum] who'd have some def. ideas about boat joinery. He seems to favor epoxy for almost anything nautical. I probably have his name wrong, but think it's Bob Smalser.  He's based in the Pacific Northwest, and seems to know everything about boats and repairing them, along with a host of other things woodworking and shop related. Very knowledgeable. Otherwise, one of the FOG regulars will chime in soon... [smile]

 

[jmbfestool]

A polyurethane glue?    It says it passes ANSI/HPVA 1 AND 2 easily!  Also can withstand extreme High and low temperatures.

http://uk.gorillaglue.com/eng/glues/glue-list/1/8/gorilla-glue-original.html

or

http://uk.gorillaglue.com/eng/glues/glue-list/1/8/gorilla-glue-original.html
goes abit harder than the normal polyurethane I use this type the most I think its stronger and it does not expand as much so less messy.

I have had mix feelings with polyurethane I first thought wood glue was stronger then thought polyurethane was but I now think they are both just as strong depending where your using the glue.

I found glueing two pieces of wood together both butt up together going with the long grain wood glue wins hands down but wood glue isnt very strong on end grain where as polyurethane is AMAZING on end grain.  So glueing a joint like a mortise and tenon polyurethane would be as strong or stronger than wood glue but with the advantage of expanding so increasing the strength. Wood glue does not so only if wood is touching wood will the glue actually hold.

I have found polyurethane is very strong for gluing end grain to end grain  specially MDF wood glue doesn't come close.

I properly go with west systems though even though I like monkey glue.

JMB

 

[pierreblonde]

epoxy is the way to go,, west system is the one to use its Lloyds Approved for boat building , axminster power tools sell it

 

[woodguy7]

I seem to remember something about having to clean the joints with some sort of solvent to reduce the amount of oil in the joint area to help the glue bond.  This may only be with some types of glue though & the west system is probably the way to go.

 

[peter halle]

Acetone or lacquer thinner are the usual solvents suggested.

Peter

 

[Guy Ashley]

Wow!! [big grin]

Thanks folks, I have watched the West System video link that Peter has posted and the general concencus seems to be the West system is the way to go.

At the end of the day if it has Lloyds Register approval and it is specifically for boat building then it has got to be the system (ho ho) to use!

I seem to remember something about having to clean the joints with some sort of solvent to reduce the amount of oil in the joint area to help the glue bond.  This may only be with some types of glue though & the west system is probably the way to go.

Woodguy, thanks you have just jogged the last living memory cell I have and I do seem to remember with teak a wipe with cellulose thinners is the norm prior to glue up!

Ok thanks again everybody best I order some from Axminster on line!!

Man this forum is soooooo good for this problem solving malarky!! [big grin] [big grin]  

 

[peter halle]

Remember that the West System components are temperature dependent - so order carefully!

 

[danrush]

I also recommend West System.  The boat at left was my first (and favorite) and was also the first time I used epoxy.  I was intimidated at first by all the mixing rules, different additives, set times etc, but quickly found the folks at West ( here in the states anyway) most helpful and accomodating.  Try to pick up their literature, they have quite a bit out there; not just sales stuff, but good info on specific mixes, additives, and proper uses.

I find myself using epoxy alot more than I would ever have dreamed.  It's not quite duct tape but....

Good luck, Dan

 

[Todd]

I'm no expert but you might want to look into Smith & Co Oak and Teak Epoxy glue which is solvent based so it doesn't require cleaning the surfaces. It has a 60 to 90 minute working time and will cure at temperatures down to 28 degrees F.

 

[coffeebean]

I would most strongly advise Gloves, respirator or exceedingly good ventilation when working with uncured or partially epoxy.
The materials are not noxious or exceptionally toxic, but some  users  develop a severe allergic sensitivity.

Epoxies are way too useful to lose your future access to them because you could no longer tolerate exposure to them

I know of several boat builders who now are forced to contract out all epoxy work.

Just the safe/not sorry principle.

G

 

[tiralie]

Guy:
Not sure where you are with this, and it's probably too late but I found this article about Resorcinol V. Epoxy on a Gluing White Oak for exterior doors .
Not a recent article but fairly interesting.
Tim

 

[jmbfestool]

Guy:
Not sure where you are with this, and it's probably too late but I found this article about Resorcinol V. Epoxy on a Gluing White Oak for exterior doors .
Not a recent article but fairly interesting.
Tim

The PDF was interesting thank you!

JMB

 

[Grey Heron]

Guy don't use anything else than epoxy resins. Doesn't matter if it's west Epoxy System or something else but it does matter if it's epoxy or just simple glue. Cascamite would be ok but life span of it too short and it likes to crackle. for timbers like teak, balau or any other high density ones use slow hardener otherwise glue won't have time to penetrate deep enough.
Hope it's helpfull
Arek

 

[katoosh525]

I'm no expert but you might want to look into Smith & Co Oak and Teak Epoxy glue which is solvent based so it doesn't require cleaning the surfaces. It has a 60 to 90 minute working time and will cure at temperatures down to 28 degrees F.

Excellent stuff, trouble is you could not get it in England.
Now available in the UK too.

 

[Theshipstore]

Guy.  Down at the Boat yard I have used both the West system and Smith and Co. I build both Teak Swim Platforms and Teak Bow Pulpits.
I do like the West System Products as I can obtain them easily from my local Marine Supply Stores.

Sal

 

[gkaiseril]

For oily woods like teak and epay use a solvent to remove as much as the surface oil as possible. Epoxy does not work well with oil. One can not get all of the oil from the wood but one wants enough penetration so there is some penetration into the wood for good bond.

 

[jacko9]

I've used West Systems epoxy for gluing oily woods.  If it weren't for the moisture, Titebond III is also great for gluing oily woods.

Jack