Yes, it's another DF-500 vs DF-700 thread...

[sploo]

...I bet that's never been asked before on the forum  [embarassed]

I'm considering both of the Domino models, and I suspect most of my use would be in 3/4" ply and MDF, as well as 1 1/2" to 2” pine, with the occasional 2x4. As such, it sounds like the DF-500 would probably be the better option. The Seneca RTS-500 has muddied the waters though, and I'm very tempted by the DF-700’s huge depth capability (even if I haven't identified what I'd use it for yet).

However, I've never used either, so I have (what are probably a few obvious/dumb) questions:

I was thinking that the DF-700 might be good (with the 12mm cutter) for making the kind of fences you get on the side of cots and children's beds - I could make 12mm thick slats with a ~1/4” round over, and mortise holes with the DF-700. Is that a realistic application for the Domino (i.e. mortise holes that would be visible)?

I see that the DF-700 only has the option of exact and +3mm for the mortise width, but the smaller model does three, and wider. What's the gist here? Is that a problem, or is it not really relevant? I know you could obviously do multiple cuts for a wider mortise but I'm just wondering what the use cases are, and if the DF-700 is "lacking" in this regard.

I'm conscious of the fact an 8mm tenon and a minimum plunge of 15mm might be a problem for a tenon-supported butt joint in 3/4" ply. The Seneca adaptor would allow a smaller bit+tenon, and I assume a plate or shim on the fence would allow a DF-700 to plunge a shallower mortise? Oh, and a plate/shim to centre a mortise on 1/2" material (I'm assuming that's required as the minimum fence height is listed as 10mm).

I can't afford both models, so, with the Seneca RTS-500, would the DF-700 be a good all-round choice? I.e. with the odd shim, and accepting the higher weight, is there anything the DF-700 can't do (vs the DF-500)? Another way of putting would probably be: are there DF-700 owners (with the RTS-500 adaptor and some DF-500 bits) that wish they'd just bought a DF-500 instead?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

 

[Ed Bray]

I had a DF500 with all sizes of bits (4, 5, 6, 8 & 10 and Dominos) and received a DF700XL just after Christmas. I bought the 8/10 Domino/Bit pack and the Domino/Bit 12/14 pack with the DF700XL. I bought the Seneca adapter and the Domishims to trial and have just (this evening) sold my DF500 along with 5, 8 and 10 bits as the DF700XL will do all that I want of it.

The reason there is no requirement on the DF700XL for the larger width hole is that by using the pins on the front it is very easy to make very large width mortises if required.

Your suggestion for using the DF700XL to make mortises for Cot stretchers is a good one, and it is very easy to make your own loose tenons.

If I was going to use the Dominos professionally I would probably have kept both the DF500 and the DF700XL, but as I am only a hobbyist woodworker, the DF700XL and adapter along with the additional bits (4mm & 6mm) will do all that I want (and a lot more).

 

[Doug S]

I have both the df 500 and the df 700. For years I thought the df 500 was the greatest thing ever but now I have the 700 the 500 only really gets used as a glorified biscuit jointer. The 700 has made my mortiser redundant and even gets used for things like fitting locks. I have no experience of the seneca adapters but if they are as good as they say the 700 can do it all.

Doug

 

[jmarkflesher]

Just a question for the DF-700 owners. Does the dust extractor clean out the deeper holes or do you have to bang out or vacuum out mortises? I to have the DF-500 but was looking at the 700.Thanks, MARK

 

[ear3]

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to reiterate the question asked in the original post, which is in what sorts of situations does one use the widest mortise setting with the DF500?  I haven't yet found a need for this setting on my Domino.

 

[sploo]

I had a DF500 with all sizes of bits (4, 5, 6, 8 & 10 and Dominos) and received a DF700XL just after Christmas. I bought the 8/10 Domino/Bit pack and the Domino/Bit 12/14 pack with the DF700XL. I bought the Seneca adapter and the Domishims to trial and have just (this evening) sold my DF500 along with 5, 8 and 10 bits as the DF700XL will do all that I want of it.

The reason there is no requirement on the DF700XL for the larger width hole is that by using the pins on the front it is very easy to make very large width mortises if required.

Your suggestion for using the DF700XL to make mortises for Cot stretchers is a good one, and it is very easy to make your own loose tenons.

If I was going to use the Dominos professionally I would probably have kept both the DF500 and the DF700XL, but as I am only a hobbyist woodworker, the DF700XL and adapter along with the additional bits (4mm & 6mm) will do all that I want (and a lot more).

Ed - that's really useful to read; many thanks. Was getting the Seneca adapter into the UK relatively pain free (shipping costs, tax etc.)?

I have both the df 500 and the df 700. For years I thought the df 500 was the greatest thing ever but now I have the 700 the 500 only really gets used as a glorified biscuit jointer. The 700 has made my mortiser redundant and even gets used for things like fitting locks. I have no experience of the seneca adapters but if they are as good as they say the 700 can do it all.

Thanks Doug. I guess by "glorified biscuit jointer" you mean you're using it for the smaller bit sizes for joining panels? AFAIU that could be done with the DF-700 and the Seneca adaptor (with some shimming on the fence to aid cutting into thinner panels).

Just a question for the DF-700 owners. Does the dust extractor clean out the deeper holes or do you have to bang out or vacuum out mortises? I to have the DF-500 but was looking at the 700.Thanks, MARK

Coming from a CNC background, I'd guess there's a reasonable chance the extraction would work OK, as an upcut spiral bit tends to clear material pretty well.

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to reiterate the question asked in the original post, which is in what sorts of situations does one use the widest mortise setting with the DF500?  I haven't yet found a need for this setting on my Domino.

I've seen the idea of making your own (wider) tenons for joining larger stock, so that may be one application. The other might be for floating tenons to allow wood movement - e.g. on a large table. However, I'm not sure if you'd actually need that much room for movement, so I am guessing there.

 

[Ed Bray]

I had a DF500 with all sizes of bits (4, 5, 6, 8 & 10 and Dominos) and received a DF700XL just after Christmas. I bought the 8/10 Domino/Bit pack and the Domino/Bit 12/14 pack with the DF700XL. I bought the Seneca adapter and the Domishims to trial and have just (this evening) sold my DF500 along with 5, 8 and 10 bits as the DF700XL will do all that I want of it.

The reason there is no requirement on the DF700XL for the larger width hole is that by using the pins on the front it is very easy to make very large width mortises if required.

Your suggestion for using the DF700XL to make mortises for Cot stretchers is a good one, and it is very easy to make your own loose tenons.

If I was going to use the Dominos professionally I would probably have kept both the DF500 and the DF700XL, but as I am only a hobbyist woodworker, the DF700XL and adapter along with the additional bits (4mm & 6mm) will do all that I want (and a lot more).

Ed - that's really useful to read; many thanks. Was getting the Seneca adapter into the UK relatively pain free (shipping costs, tax etc.)?

Someone else bought them, decided they weren't going to use them and sold them to me.

I have both the df 500 and the df 700. For years I thought the df 500 was the greatest thing ever but now I have the 700 the 500 only really gets used as a glorified biscuit jointer. The 700 has made my mortiser redundant and even gets used for things like fitting locks. I have no experience of the seneca adapters but if they are as good as they say the 700 can do it all.

Thanks Doug. I guess by "glorified biscuit jointer" you mean you're using it for the smaller bit sizes for joining panels? AFAIU that could be done with the DF-700 and the Seneca adaptor (with some shimming on the fence to aid cutting into thinner panels).

Seneca make Domishims for that!

Just a question for the DF-700 owners. Does the dust extractor clean out the deeper holes or do you have to bang out or vacuum out mortises? I to have the DF-500 but was looking at the 700.Thanks, MARK

Coming from a CNC background, I'd guess there's a reasonable chance the extraction would work OK, as an upcut spiral bit tends to clear material pretty well.

Extraction has worked great on all my Domino holes.

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to reiterate the question asked in the original post, which is in what sorts of situations does one use the widest mortise setting with the DF500?  I haven't yet found a need for this setting on my Domino.

I've seen the idea of making your own (wider) tenons for joining larger stock, so that may be one application. The other might be for floating tenons to allow wood movement - e.g. on a large table. However, I'm not sure if you'd actually need that much room for movement, so I am guessing there.

 

[jbasen]

I'm just a hobbyist so puchasing both the 500 and 700 dominos just couldn't be justified (at least by me). I bought the 700 with the Seneca adapter and some smaller cutters and haven't regretted my decision. Almost all the projects I've done have been ones where the 500 would have been the correct choice from a Festool perspective.  The 700 has done a great job.

I wanted one machine that would do it all and that is what the 700/Seneca adapter has given me.

 

[Ed Bray]

I'm just a hobbyist so puchasing both the 500 and 700 dominos just couldn't be justified (at least by me). I bought the 700 with the Seneca adapter and some smaller cutters and haven't regretted my decision. Almost all the projects I've done have been ones where the 500 would have been the correct choice from a Festool perspective.  The 700 has done a great job.

I wanted one machine that would do it all and that is what the 700/Seneca adapter has given me.

Absolutely.

 

[JBird]

All your comments expressing preference for the 700, apparently even in cases where the 500 is suited, are surprising to me. I have the 500 and have not as of yet come across any need for the larger capacity of the 700 in my projects. But your enthusiasm for the 700 makes we wonder if I am missing something. Looking at the supplemental manual it does seem like the 700 is a more evolved tool than the 500.

However I have had experiences with a lot of repetitive work where the weight of the 500 caused me some significant fatigue. Particularly in scenarios when I am holding both the work and the machine in my hands when I make the plunges(narrow strips of ply or MDF).

The 500 is 7 lbs and the 700 is 11.4 lbs which is not a small difference in terms of ergonomics. The 500 is already a surprisingly hefty tool considering its compact size. This is compounded by the unbalanced way one must necessarily hold this type of tool(towards the lighter end) and it puts a lot of strain on the wrist. Storage space efficiency is also an important consideration for me and the 500 fits in a sys 2 vs the sys 5 for the 700.

 

[Frank-Jan]

Not to hijack the thread, but I wanted to reiterate the question asked in the original post, which is in what sorts of situations does one use the widest mortise setting with the DF500?  I haven't yet found a need for this setting on my Domino.

I remember I used it for a project where I needed to make my own dominoes, so I decided to make them match the wide slot.

(I was making a railing for a balcony/deck, and none of the local dealers stocked the sipo tenons, and I didn't have time to order them)

 

[mark60]

I went through the decision a few months ago and got the 500. Most of my work for the Domino will be 1" or less stock and on the occasions I need to go larger I can use my router to make the mortise and make my own tenons. If most of my projects were to be larger I would have opted for the 700 with needed attachments.

 

[SoonerFan]

Hobbyist here as well.  I went with the 500 based on cost and expected usage.  I bought it during the sale last year.  Not disappointed in my choice.  While the 700 and Seneca adopters could very well be the best "single Domino" solution I choose to save the money which I promptly spent on a Carvex  [big grin]

 

[PA floor guy]

Same here.  I was force fed the 500 as a gift, i was worried that I would be disappointed, but it's awesome.  I honestly don't think I would even need anything bigger for what I do.  I like how the 500 is smaller and easier to work with based on that.  I have handles the 700 many times.  I'm very happy with my 500

 

[Birdhunter]

I have both machines. I use the 500 maybe 80% of the time as I do a lot of smaller pieces. I've never used the widest setting on the 500. I don't remember having to knock the dust out of a 500 mortise.

The 700 is ideal for larger projects like benches, especially in hard woods like Ipe. I have had to knock the dust out of deep 700 mortises. The 700 can cut a deep big mortise in the hardest of woods even in end grain. The 500 can't.

I feel the 700 ergonomics are better than those of the 500 but the much lighter weight of the 500 makes it nicer for projects with a lot of mortises. The smaller size of the 500 helps if you are working with small pieces.

Whichever machine you buy, the Senica plates are wonderful accessories.

 

[blakjak220]

First, I've only got the 500, but I've had a couple of times where I thought being able to make a much deeper mortise would've really added to the strength of the joint (like in 2X4's). Although I've only held one in the store, I really think I like the ergonomics of the DF700 better than the straight rear handle of the 500. I've never used the widest setting on the 500 other than playing around with it - I use the tightest setting 90% of the time and the middle the other 10%.. no disadvantage for the 700 there.

I think it all comes down to money... I see no disadvantage other than price of the 700 + extras (I guess the added weight MIGHT be a problem if you're using it 4 hours a day). The CT pulls all the dust out of the deepest df500 mortises, I can't speak to the 700, but my guess would be very little dust left over.

So basically the question is: Do you have another $500 to drop in order to be able to make 70mm deep mortises? If the extra $500 is no big deal then go for the 700 and Seneca accessories. If, like most of us, money is part of the equation.. get the 500. If you don't like it, use the 30 day return policy and upgrade. Definitely get the tenon assortment and "set" with whichever one you buy, it really makes it nice to use when you've got everything you need right there.

 

[sploo]

Great (and useful) responses - many thanks.

As I suspected - guys with the 700 (and the adaptor) are quite happy with their purchase (and acknowledge the 500 would do a lot of their stuff), and guys with the 500 are happy, as they'd only rarely need the 700. The topic of the 700 being heavier but having better economics is something I've seen quite a few times - so it's food for thought.

I think that if the Seneca adaptor wasn't available I'd definitely go for the DF-500, but either model is expensive. The way I see it is that the price difference between the two is less than buying the 500, starting a project that would be better suited to the 700, and realising you're the full cost of a 700 away - if that makes sense.

Apart from the general weight handling issues, I've not seen anyone claim that there are jobs you absolutely cannot do with the 700 that the 500 would do (admittedly with the adaptor and shims) so for a single-tool solution I am leaning towards the 700.

 

[festivus]

My honest advice is get the tool you need now - not the tool that you think you might need in the future.

It's very tempting to buy adapters and so forth - but both tools are designed for different needs. In a nutshell - the 500 for most furniture projects and the 700 for joinery and larger furniture.

I think this article from Marc at Wood Whisperer is good: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/domino-df500-vs-domino-xl-df700-which-is-right-for-me/

I've had the DF500 for 6 years and I have very rarely wished I'd had something bigger (apart from the general "I wish I had everything that Festool made!") You can always revert to traditional mortise and tenon (shock, horror) if you need stronger structural joints. There is also a significant difference in price (£200) and weight (2kg).

 

[sploo]

My honest advice is get the tool you need now - not the tool that you think you might need in the future.

It's very tempting to buy adapters and so forth - but both tools are designed for different needs. In a nutshell - the 500 for most furniture projects and the 700 for joinery and larger furniture.

I think this article from Marc at Wood Whisperer is good: http://www.thewoodwhisperer.com/articles/domino-df500-vs-domino-xl-df700-which-is-right-for-me/

I've had the DF500 for 6 years and I have very rarely wished I'd had something bigger (apart from the general "I wish I had everything that Festool made!") You can always revert to traditional mortise and tenon (shock, horror) if you need stronger structural joints. There is also a significant difference in price (£200) and weight (2kg).

Well, ironically I'm thinking of making some projects where I want to install 12mm thick slats for a "fence", so the DF-700 would be ideal! But, I do get your point.

The link is useful (I had seen it before). It interests me that in the comments section someone asks if the availability of the Seneca RTS-500 would change his position, to which he responded "Sort of. It doesn't make the 700 any less bulky though which can be an issue if you only work with small to medium scale projects. So I think that might be the real deciding factor for each individual"

 

[Grasshopper]

I debated this myself.

I opted for the 500 since I don't have an immediate need for the 700 size.  In all I have done with the 500, I love it.  I think that the 700 would seem a little bulky for cabinet construction.  My two cents.

The money savings helped too.