Your Mission if You Choose:
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Frank Pellow
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Peter, first of all it was great to (almost) see you in person.
Have you seen the "book" that I distributed about the planning, building, and use of my woodworking shed. If not, you might get some ideas there. It's free for download or I could send you PDF on a DVD. Just ask.
Do, you really need to cram everything into a 10x12 space? If there is any way you can get more, I STROGNLY advise trying to do so. It will be a intersting and probably fun challenge to cram what you need into the space but, once you have done so, I don't think it will be a lot of fun to build stuff in the space. I really do know what I am talking about because I worked for several years in just such a space (granted without the benefit of Festool innovations).
Have you seen the "book" that I distributed about the planning, building, and use of my woodworking shed. If not, you might get some ideas there. It's free for download or I could send you PDF on a DVD. Just ask.
Do, you really need to cram everything into a 10x12 space? If there is any way you can get more, I STROGNLY advise trying to do so. It will be a intersting and probably fun challenge to cram what you need into the space but, once you have done so, I don't think it will be a lot of fun to build stuff in the space. I really do know what I am talking about because I worked for several years in just such a space (granted without the benefit of Festool innovations).
Theshipstore
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- Sep 23, 2010
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Peter. I have a 10 by 20 and its crowded as can be. At first I was wow look at all the room but over the last five years it has shrunk. Most of my work now consists of my driveway and entrance to my 1 car Garage ( also crowded ) I think you will quickly see space will be needed again quite rapidly.
I believe you are like me and would prefer to be working at or near home. For me it makes things easier as all my tools and needed extra's are right there.
I like you am trying to rearrange my shop and create a working space. I wish you success in your venture..
I will send you some shop photo's as soon as I can.
Sal
I believe you are like me and would prefer to be working at or near home. For me it makes things easier as all my tools and needed extra's are right there.
I like you am trying to rearrange my shop and create a working space. I wish you success in your venture..
I will send you some shop photo's as soon as I can.
Sal
Frank,
I guess I will never be able to sneek into a group of Festoolians standing on the corner and ask where a Dewalt dealer is any more and have fun. [big grin]
I am limited to the space. "Trumps Cottage" really exists. I am not going to use it for business - that will continue to be at clients' homes, but I do want the ability to intelligently break down limited numbers of sheet goods and have fun doing what so many others do in their limited spaces. I would love to have space, but honestly I think that having a smaller space ( about the same as a small bedroom) would be a great way to force myself to do things smarter ...
Peter
I guess I will never be able to sneek into a group of Festoolians standing on the corner and ask where a Dewalt dealer is any more and have fun. [big grin]
I am limited to the space. "Trumps Cottage" really exists. I am not going to use it for business - that will continue to be at clients' homes, but I do want the ability to intelligently break down limited numbers of sheet goods and have fun doing what so many others do in their limited spaces. I would love to have space, but honestly I think that having a smaller space ( about the same as a small bedroom) would be a great way to force myself to do things smarter ...
Peter
Frank,
I don't remember seeing that. I am sure there would be a ton of members who would love to read it so how about posting a link.
Sal and Tom, I hear you but economics are in play. I have this space available, I don't have a tool that weighs over 110 lbs and the cost to outfit it will be minimal once WE/ YOU GUYS help design it. I have had dreams for a larger place and my brother - an architect - offered to do all the drawings for me for permitting, but then the economy took a nose dive.
Besides, this might help others with smaller spaces.
P
I don't remember seeing that. I am sure there would be a ton of members who would love to read it so how about posting a link.
Sal and Tom, I hear you but economics are in play. I have this space available, I don't have a tool that weighs over 110 lbs and the cost to outfit it will be minimal once WE/ YOU GUYS help design it. I have had dreams for a larger place and my brother - an architect - offered to do all the drawings for me for permitting, but then the economy took a nose dive.
Besides, this might help others with smaller spaces.
P
Frank Pellow
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- Jan 16, 2007
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- 2,743
Peter Halle said:
Peter, there is a link on the FOG to a spot where you can download the (approximately 200 page) journal about the planning, construction, and use of my woodworking shed. That spot also has a shop tour that can be downloaded. This is the thread where you can find the link and the download instructions: http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-connections/frank-pellow's-woodworking-shop-dec-2008-update/msg2227/#msg2227
tiralie
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- Jan 26, 2010
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Peter:
Thanks for the video. Nice to er, kinda meet you.
Here's my two cents.
I understand the need to "model" your workspace but I am not sure that actually building it is a great use of materials or time particularly since the space already exists. While it will be entertaining for us it just seems overkill. To my mind building an existing space puts off the inevitable (eventual move to the 10'x12' shed) and I think you really just need to do it.
I would suggest you just move in to your 10 x12 spacenow, while you still have your leased space, use it as you think you want and then figure out what else you need if anything and adapt. I know this isn't very scientific but only you know what you need and as you have questions I am sure someone here will chime in with (not so humble) opinions etc.
Alternatively, I think it would take less time and money and be less of an all round headache to model your 10ft. x 12ft. space 3D or even with some grid paper using outlines of your machinery? Actually you could probably build a cardboard model with cutouts etc. that gave you as much insight as actually building it.
BTW, I believe I have skimmed Frank's document and it's very good.
Tim
Thanks for the video. Nice to er, kinda meet you.
Here's my two cents.
I understand the need to "model" your workspace but I am not sure that actually building it is a great use of materials or time particularly since the space already exists. While it will be entertaining for us it just seems overkill. To my mind building an existing space puts off the inevitable (eventual move to the 10'x12' shed) and I think you really just need to do it.
I would suggest you just move in to your 10 x12 spacenow, while you still have your leased space, use it as you think you want and then figure out what else you need if anything and adapt. I know this isn't very scientific but only you know what you need and as you have questions I am sure someone here will chime in with (not so humble) opinions etc.
Alternatively, I think it would take less time and money and be less of an all round headache to model your 10ft. x 12ft. space 3D or even with some grid paper using outlines of your machinery? Actually you could probably build a cardboard model with cutouts etc. that gave you as much insight as actually building it.
BTW, I believe I have skimmed Frank's document and it's very good.
Tim
Tim Morris
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- Jan 31, 2010
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- 323
I agree with Tim. Just do it. I have never heard a woodworker complain their shop was "too big". We are all like water and conform to our containers.
How about emptying the current 'cottage' into the hired space you have and suss out the details in Trumps Cottage with us.
It'll take exactly the same leasetime but save you the prototype building time and probably you'll end up trashing 20% of the stuff before the move and another 20-50% on the move back/storage once you decide to cut off the lease. -> less hauling crud around. ;-)
An added benefit would be to be designing with the actual space with its quirks visible and not an idealized simulation model.
It'll take exactly the same leasetime but save you the prototype building time and probably you'll end up trashing 20% of the stuff before the move and another 20-50% on the move back/storage once you decide to cut off the lease. -> less hauling crud around. ;-)
An added benefit would be to be designing with the actual space with its quirks visible and not an idealized simulation model.
Kev
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- Nov 7, 2011
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I have a 10x13 annexe to the garage and when I put things away, the lawn mower is the last thing to go in - then it's full 100%, no room for a fag paper.
... that's a real challenge for a work space and I don't feel Festool lends itselft to ultra compact, I feel it's more ultra portable.
Do you actually intend to work "in" the space or is it more of a wheel in / wheel out equipment store?
Having such a limited space (while I still tried to fit a small convertible in the garage) was the reason I let go of a really nice pedestal drill, scroll saw, compressor, compact table saw, etc ... some really dumb moves by me [embarassed]
Bottom line - I found having to work in a confined space and constantly move stuff about such a time suck that I just stopped (for years).
... that's a real challenge for a work space and I don't feel Festool lends itselft to ultra compact, I feel it's more ultra portable.
Do you actually intend to work "in" the space or is it more of a wheel in / wheel out equipment store?
Having such a limited space (while I still tried to fit a small convertible in the garage) was the reason I let go of a really nice pedestal drill, scroll saw, compressor, compact table saw, etc ... some really dumb moves by me [embarassed]
Bottom line - I found having to work in a confined space and constantly move stuff about such a time suck that I just stopped (for years).
Thanks for all the comments! It is going to take me a bit of time to compose something to explain better why I think that this approach is better for me, so please don't think that I am not hearing you.
Peter
Peter
Hi Peter,
I am in a similar situation, but as a true hobbyist, I don't have the background of years of professional use to help me.
I built a 16x16 building especially for the purpose giving me a 15x15 internal area. I would have liked more space but this was the largest flat space I had to work with so it will have to do.
I read Frank's documents but found little I could use as scaling down this drastically didn't work at least for me. For instance, I can't afford the luxury of pegboard and hanging tools directly on the wall or find space for a table saw. I also don't have exterior space for lumber and sheet storage so figuring that out was my first priority. Then I needed a cabinet sized to hold my two MFTs when folded so I can reuse the space. I am now building wall cabinets along two walls. From there the design is still evolving and I look forward to the inevitable ideas that will surely come from this project.
Since my space will look luxurious to you, this may or may not be helpful but I offer it in the hope that it will be.
Dick
I am in a similar situation, but as a true hobbyist, I don't have the background of years of professional use to help me.
I built a 16x16 building especially for the purpose giving me a 15x15 internal area. I would have liked more space but this was the largest flat space I had to work with so it will have to do.
I read Frank's documents but found little I could use as scaling down this drastically didn't work at least for me. For instance, I can't afford the luxury of pegboard and hanging tools directly on the wall or find space for a table saw. I also don't have exterior space for lumber and sheet storage so figuring that out was my first priority. Then I needed a cabinet sized to hold my two MFTs when folded so I can reuse the space. I am now building wall cabinets along two walls. From there the design is still evolving and I look forward to the inevitable ideas that will surely come from this project.
Since my space will look luxurious to you, this may or may not be helpful but I offer it in the hope that it will be.
Dick
tjbnwi
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Peter,
If you are going to mock up the space, don't drywall it. Cardboard, builders paper, butchers paper should give you the "feel" of the space.
I could not work in a 10x12 space. It would drive me crazier than I already am.
At least the camera did not add 10 pounds to you. (I have met him in person)
Tom
If you are going to mock up the space, don't drywall it. Cardboard, builders paper, butchers paper should give you the "feel" of the space.
I could not work in a 10x12 space. It would drive me crazier than I already am.
At least the camera did not add 10 pounds to you. (I have met him in person)
Tom
This will be long so please bear with me.
Home: I should be considered a permanent resident. I have been here since 1993, I love my house, it was built the way I wanted, and it has been very good to me. There are only a few situations under which I would move happily. I have enough land to build a dream shop if I wanted to. But the economy over the last few years has certainly an effect on my family because I am a contractor and although I see better things in the future, I am more than hesitant to make a large investment when I know that there will be minimal payback with the exception of my mental health and pleasure time.
I have 2 - 10 x 12 buildings. One was built only to be crushed by a tree back in 2003 and I took the insurance claim and repaired that building (including some walls, new roof, new footings, new window and doors, vinyl siding, etc. - all without dealing with the carnage inside.) My wife and I then decided to build another building adjacent to that one. You might wonder why 10 x 12 sizes. That is the maximum that I could build without a building permit. The second building was a copy of the first, then the dreaded "While we are at it" syndrome kicked in. I have replaced too many doors because of rot due to not overhang, so there came the covered porch. Then there was the panel saw sitting in the driveway rusting. Hey, how about a rear covered porch? Then there was the "What if the material is too large to fit inside to allow working on it?" The answer - a front deck.
BUT - no electricity. My house has plenty of amperage, too bad it has a small exterior panel box. My panel is maxed and to run power to the shop would require a sub panel or main panel replacement and then running 125 ft of cable in a route that would not damage the roots of the trees which are incredibly valuable to me. All this adds to costs that I am prepared to do - if I can prove to myself that I will be able to use the space.
As I wrote earlier I never set foot in the old shed (with the exception of tossing stuff aside to set the new door and standing on debris to install the new window) from the fall of 2003 until 2011. No kidding. Any woodworking stuff I had in there became redundant or I just didn't need. I cleaned out that area in 2011 and gained some space, but that space was quickly eaten up by moving stuff out of the compact house. Trump's Cottage wasn't being used for woodworking so it had also become a storage place.
That is why the rented space became necessary when a business opportunity came about. That venture didn't work out as expected and although I never expected it to replace my day job as a contractor - I frankly lost money on the venture - partially because of the rental costs and also the inability to spend the snippets of time I talk about in the video and the costs of going to and from the shop.
I don't have any large tools any more with the exception of the panel saw which hasn't been used since 2006. As I was building my contracting business I forced myself to be portable and refused to buy anything permanent. The panel saw was a prize in a contest. I now pretty much only use Festools now and want to continue down that path. The majority of my Festools travel with me every day, so they would be moved in and out as needed for a project and augmented as needed. I could see a second MFT/3 staying in the shop while the original travelled. I have a thickness planer and a small portable table saw that would mainly be residents of the shop stored until needed. I did save an old portable drill press from the carnage of the old shop and if it works it might also reside. I have a home made router table that may be replaced by a CMS in the future, but that is about all that I can see in the near future.
I can image using this space to build nothing more than a cabinet or two at a time knowing that I might have to move some materials or semi finished projects outside. I want to be able to quickly get to my tools if I read something here that I want to try in person.
The Project: I don't think that it will be a waste of time and money to prototype based on what I have written above. If the result is that I can't work in the prototype space, then plan B would come into play which is to build an addition to the house that although I would be using it as a shop now could be converted to living space in the future. That space would have quite a few limitations, but in thinking about my situation I can't see a large free standing shop or even a two car garage any time soon. Any materials used in the prototype could be reused in that add on situation. If the prototype works out, then I have other places to store the materials or I could donate them to a charity or the local vocational program at the high school.
I don't think that it would come to a surprise that I have a huge appreciation of this forum and the contributions of the members that help and nurture others. I can assure all of you that I am not doing this to bring attention to myself. I have a situation that exists, time to spend toward this, and most importantly to me a tool to be used to possibly take ideas from the members, mix them with mine, and share with others who might be looking to have a work area in their own smaller than optimal space.
Hopefully by the end I will have better video skills, I will be more comfortable and better in explaining things, I will have tried out some different tools, and others will have benefitted some how. And I will know over a period of time if that size can suit me for the current time until the stars align for something better.
I hope that this helps.
Peter
Home: I should be considered a permanent resident. I have been here since 1993, I love my house, it was built the way I wanted, and it has been very good to me. There are only a few situations under which I would move happily. I have enough land to build a dream shop if I wanted to. But the economy over the last few years has certainly an effect on my family because I am a contractor and although I see better things in the future, I am more than hesitant to make a large investment when I know that there will be minimal payback with the exception of my mental health and pleasure time.
I have 2 - 10 x 12 buildings. One was built only to be crushed by a tree back in 2003 and I took the insurance claim and repaired that building (including some walls, new roof, new footings, new window and doors, vinyl siding, etc. - all without dealing with the carnage inside.) My wife and I then decided to build another building adjacent to that one. You might wonder why 10 x 12 sizes. That is the maximum that I could build without a building permit. The second building was a copy of the first, then the dreaded "While we are at it" syndrome kicked in. I have replaced too many doors because of rot due to not overhang, so there came the covered porch. Then there was the panel saw sitting in the driveway rusting. Hey, how about a rear covered porch? Then there was the "What if the material is too large to fit inside to allow working on it?" The answer - a front deck.
BUT - no electricity. My house has plenty of amperage, too bad it has a small exterior panel box. My panel is maxed and to run power to the shop would require a sub panel or main panel replacement and then running 125 ft of cable in a route that would not damage the roots of the trees which are incredibly valuable to me. All this adds to costs that I am prepared to do - if I can prove to myself that I will be able to use the space.
As I wrote earlier I never set foot in the old shed (with the exception of tossing stuff aside to set the new door and standing on debris to install the new window) from the fall of 2003 until 2011. No kidding. Any woodworking stuff I had in there became redundant or I just didn't need. I cleaned out that area in 2011 and gained some space, but that space was quickly eaten up by moving stuff out of the compact house. Trump's Cottage wasn't being used for woodworking so it had also become a storage place.
That is why the rented space became necessary when a business opportunity came about. That venture didn't work out as expected and although I never expected it to replace my day job as a contractor - I frankly lost money on the venture - partially because of the rental costs and also the inability to spend the snippets of time I talk about in the video and the costs of going to and from the shop.
I don't have any large tools any more with the exception of the panel saw which hasn't been used since 2006. As I was building my contracting business I forced myself to be portable and refused to buy anything permanent. The panel saw was a prize in a contest. I now pretty much only use Festools now and want to continue down that path. The majority of my Festools travel with me every day, so they would be moved in and out as needed for a project and augmented as needed. I could see a second MFT/3 staying in the shop while the original travelled. I have a thickness planer and a small portable table saw that would mainly be residents of the shop stored until needed. I did save an old portable drill press from the carnage of the old shop and if it works it might also reside. I have a home made router table that may be replaced by a CMS in the future, but that is about all that I can see in the near future.
I can image using this space to build nothing more than a cabinet or two at a time knowing that I might have to move some materials or semi finished projects outside. I want to be able to quickly get to my tools if I read something here that I want to try in person.
The Project: I don't think that it will be a waste of time and money to prototype based on what I have written above. If the result is that I can't work in the prototype space, then plan B would come into play which is to build an addition to the house that although I would be using it as a shop now could be converted to living space in the future. That space would have quite a few limitations, but in thinking about my situation I can't see a large free standing shop or even a two car garage any time soon. Any materials used in the prototype could be reused in that add on situation. If the prototype works out, then I have other places to store the materials or I could donate them to a charity or the local vocational program at the high school.
I don't think that it would come to a surprise that I have a huge appreciation of this forum and the contributions of the members that help and nurture others. I can assure all of you that I am not doing this to bring attention to myself. I have a situation that exists, time to spend toward this, and most importantly to me a tool to be used to possibly take ideas from the members, mix them with mine, and share with others who might be looking to have a work area in their own smaller than optimal space.
Hopefully by the end I will have better video skills, I will be more comfortable and better in explaining things, I will have tried out some different tools, and others will have benefitted some how. And I will know over a period of time if that size can suit me for the current time until the stars align for something better.
I hope that this helps.
Peter
Sparktrician
Member
I'm with Tom. (And I can't imagine him being any crazier than he already is... [scared]) I think of my 12 x 23 shop as being more restrictive than I wish it would be. And that's with the table saw in the garage, and not in the shop. Yes, it's very handy to have the Festool goods that have to a large degree freed me of the need to have large tools, but even so, the thought of breaking down a sheet of plywood or MDF in a 10 x 13 space is enough to turn the air blue. Would it not be more practical in a long-term sense to just bite the bullet and build a decent 2-4 car garage that will give you plenty of workspace as well as a place to stash your truck and Madame's car? I hear you about trenching so as to avoid necessary roots, and I recognize the need for permits. One alternative might be to buy a used shipping container and have it delivered to Casa Halle. They're not that spendy.
Peter,
Could you use the current shed for the tools with a small bench for small jobs, and build another 10' x 12' adjacent (maybe with doors facing each other) for a work space?
Seth
Could you use the current shed for the tools with a small bench for small jobs, and build another 10' x 12' adjacent (maybe with doors facing each other) for a work space?
Seth
Sparktrician said:
I hear you. I tried the metal building route - Boss said too ugly. Even tried the shipping container - still sleeping on the coach. At least I still have MacGyver [thumbs up]. My hope years ago was a 3 car garage with office space above. It would have been expensive because I would have needed a separate power feed from the pole and either major modifications to or relocation of the septic drain field or else I would have needed a concrete driveway crossing the drainfield.
Love the ideas!
Peter
SRSemenza said:
I'd have to look into that. I seem to realize that was an oddity in the local zoning laws. There might be a limit as to the number of accessory buildings.
Peter
Peter Halle said:
[laughing] [big grin] That takes on a whole new meaning with Festool [eek]
Seth
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