Your most hated job?

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I have plenty of worthy contenders to this most unworthy of crowns.

But for sheer, uncontrollable, unextractable, static-charged, flying-around, sticking-to-everything mess - NOTHING can hold a candle to installing LVT flooring ……

[mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad]

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How long is it until I get to go home?

Edited to add - I finished it. There were chips stuck to the ceiling 20 feet away from the saw. I have no idea what kind of dark-side voodoo can make that happen.
 

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It'd be interesting to borrow a Kapex from your favorite Festool dealer and see if that makes a difference for the next install. [smile]  Certainly nothing to lose there.

I'm willing to tackle just about any task except for...roofing/installing roofing shingles. It only took me 1 time to learn my lesson.

 
I did not have any issues using the KSC 60 connected to the blue tooth Midi when I installed the LVP floor in my home. The chip collection was really good.

I did not take a picture of the saqw after cutting for the day, picture of the saw set up.

Try spraying the saw with Static Guard.

Tom
 

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Stock preparation, specifically the thickness planing part, which can take hours and hours over days (for hundred and hundred of board feet). It's painful to plane recycled hardwood flooring planks.

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Adding to the pain is the fact that I need to stop and replace the machine's blades -- more than once -- (as well as sharpen them afterwards), a task that's time-consuming.
 

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Cheese said:
It'd be interesting to borrow a Kapex from your favorite Festool dealer and see if that makes a difference for the next install. [smile]  Certainly nothing to lose there.

I'm willing to tackle just about any task except for...roofing/installing roofing shingles. It only took me 1 time to learn my lesson.

I bought one. It broke down four times in six weeks, so I returned it ….
 
My most hated job is probably invoicing!  [wink]

Working out all the costs, going through all the material costs, consumables, time spent, evaluating the actual cost vs the estimate i originally offered and deciding how much of the overspend i can realistically bill for given where the estimate started etc. .

I wish my wife would run my business honestly, i just like using tools and making stuff:)
 
mrB said:
Working out all the costs, going through all the material costs, consumables, time spent, evaluating the actual cost vs the estimate i originally offered and deciding how much of the overspend i can realistically bill for given where the estimate started etc.

I had no idea customers even accepted estimates any more. Everyone I work for is supplied with a fully itemised, fixed-and-firm quotation, not an estimate (which can be little more than a 'guesstimate' as you've already alluded to). All my materials costings are done in advance, and my time allowance is based on 38 years experience knowing how long it will take (+ a 10-20% time contingency if the job looks like it's gonna fight me). It will save you hours every week. Submit an itemised quotation bearing a quote number, and when the job's done, spend 3 seconds editing the document, deleting the word ' Quotation' and replacing it with 'Invoice'. Simples  [smile]

Imagine yourself walking into ProTrade or Screwfix asking "How much is this saw?" - and being answered with "£500/£550ish I'd guess. Maybe £600, maybe a bit more. Or maybe less ............."
 
woodbutcherbower said:
I have plenty of worthy contenders to this most unworthy of crowns.

But for sheer, uncontrollable, unextractable, static-charged, flying-around, sticking-to-everything mess - NOTHING can hold a candle to installing LVT flooring ……

[mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad] [mad]

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

[attachimg=3]

How long is it until I get to go home?

Edited to add - I finished it. There were chips stuck to the ceiling 20 feet away from the saw. I have no idea what kind of dark-side voodoo can make that happen.

It does not have to be a chore. The 10” version is about $150.00.  I’m sure that is a homeowners’ version.  A commercial version is more.
 
Mine is drilling holes with a Forstner bit at the drill press.  Big chips all over the place.
 
I love woodturning and don't really mind the shavings, but turning resin materials is a real pain. It ends up with massively long fine threads of resin that float everywhere, including completely covering yourself, and also obscuring the entire workpiece. And cleanup afterwards is a nightmare!
 
There are a few things I cut that act similarly.
One is a fiberglass reinforced plastic sheet product, generally referred to as FRP (fiber reinforced panel) that does the same static dust mess, though it is smaller, more like dust.

Another is solid surface. (Corain) A good/sharp router bit will throw off huge fluffy chips, as it dulls the more dust it produces. It not as bad in the summer, but dry winters make it way worse, because of the static charge produced.
Cuts like a big round-over in an integral sink, are not possible with the chip deflector in place. This can completely fill a sink, in one pass. You have to scoop it out before taking a second pass or the air flowing away from the bit (and router motor fan) will blow it right in your face.
Making a cut like that, on a vertical surface, can scatter the debris for 30 feet or more.

Finally, is a product called Forbo. It's a synthetic rubbery sheet material, that is used for tack board panels. It is best described as "pencil eraser", rubber impregnated with some kind of sand-like grit.
When routed, it throws tons of curly chips. They are heavy, not staticy, but hugely messy.

Switching to Festool routers, in more recent years, has helped me a lot, but I put in many years without that advantage. Plus, I'm the only one who has them.... and not the only one who has to cut the stuff.

I started with Festool in '14, with a DF500 and a couple of sanders, then MFK700. I didn't get a full-sized router until '19, when I got a used OF1400 in an auction.
 
Where is [member=550]Tinker[/member]?  Surely he could tell some stories.

Mine:  2019. An interior designer who always did work for high-end clients asked me to help him out of a bind.  The job he was on for a millionaire couple was going downhill and he had just fired the flooring installer.  It had been a looooong time since I had done flooring but I wanted the work.  Looked at the previous work and almost cried / laughed.  It really was that bad.  Luckily that installer had to remove what he had installed.  Well, I ended up doing a test room and they were satisfied so I became the "lucky" contractor to complete the job.  Well about two weeks in I let them know that there wasn't enough flooring to finish - short by almost 1000 sq ft.  They were in a rush and ordered the floor but I kept warning them about a need for acclimation.  This was solid pre-finished hardwood.  Before that order came in I began to notice hostility between the Owner and the designer.  Within a couple of days I heard that the designer had committed suicide because the Owners were holding him responsible for the job cost overages - many of them caused by their changes in the scope of work.  Luckily I had just cashed a check for most of my work and was only owed about $600.  Because of legal loopholes allowed by the designer hiring the subs versus the Owners, the Owners commenced to not pay any of the other subs on the job even those who were owed more than $20K.  The couldn't file mechanic liens against the Owners.  They could only attempt to collect from the dead designer's estate and there wasn't any money there.  They met with me and hired me to finish the floors and do punchlist work.  They also agreed to pay the $600ish after all the dust settled as a retention bonus.

The flooring was delivered to the dining room on the first floor.  They demanded that I start installing the next day.  I explained about the need for acclimation but they insisted and I got a written waiver of warranty signed and witnessed.  I then had to haul all that wood up onto the second floor.  The first floor had 14' ceiling and that stairway nearly killed me.  I'm not a big guy and carrying full boxes of flooring was more than my back and body could reasonably stand.  All during the remainder of the job the Owner would try to get me to commit to building out their home theater room.  I stayed quiet on that with vomit in my mouth.

The last thing I had to do was install some glass shower doors that the Owner had supplied.  After installing three the last one exploded in my face as I lifted it out of its box.  I wiped the blood off my face, said a little thank you to the guy above for sparing my eyes, cleaned up, packed up and walked out.  I invoiced and got paid.

Did I ever receive my retention bonus?  Of course not.  But she did call me a year later about providing a cost for redoing her third floor deck.  I declined.

Lesson learned.

Peter
 
woodbutcherbower said:
mrB said:
Working out all the costs, going through all the material costs, consumables, time spent, evaluating the actual cost vs the estimate i originally offered and deciding how much of the overspend i can realistically bill for given where the estimate started etc.

I had no idea customers even accepted estimates any more. Everyone I work for is supplied with a fully itemised, fixed-and-firm quotation, not an estimate (which can be little more than a 'guesstimate' as you've already alluded to). All my materials costings are done in advance, and my time allowance is based on 38 years experience knowing how long it will take (+ a 10-20% time contingency if the job looks like it's gonna fight me). It will save you hours every week. Submit an itemised quotation bearing a quote number, and when the job's done, spend 3 seconds editing the document, deleting the word ' Quotation' and replacing it with 'Invoice'. Simples  [smile]

Imagine yourself walking into ProTrade or Screwfix asking "How much is this saw?" - and being answered with "£500/£550ish I'd guess. Maybe £600, maybe a bit more. Or maybe less ............."

Yeah, it’s just not how i work, and it’s never affected demand. My estimates are pretty accurate.

I always ask if they want a quote or estimate. And then explain that the quote will be my estimate + 30%.  Almost everyone goes for the estimate :)

Your ScrewFix comparison is odd. Im not selling drill bits. 
 
Peter Halle said:
Where is [member=550]Tinker[/member]?  Surely he could tell some stories.

Mine:  2019. An interior designer who always did work for high-end clients asked me to help him out of a bind.  The job he was on for a millionaire couple was going downhill and he had just fired the flooring installer.  It had been a looooong time since I had done flooring but I wanted the work.  Looked at the previous work and almost cried / laughed.  It really was that bad.  Luckily that installer had to remove what he had installed.  Well, I ended up doing a test room and they were satisfied so I became the "lucky" contractor to complete the job.  Well about two weeks in I let them know that there wasn't enough flooring to finish - short by almost 1000 sq ft.  They were in a rush and ordered the floor but I kept warning them about a need for acclimation.  This was solid pre-finished hardwood.  Before that order came in I began to notice hostility between the Owner and the designer.  Within a couple of days I heard that the designer had committed suicide because the Owners were holding him responsible for the job cost overages - many of them caused by their changes in the scope of work.  Luckily I had just cashed a check for most of my work and was only owed about $600.  Because of legal loopholes allowed by the designer hiring the subs versus the Owners, the Owners commenced to not pay any of the other subs on the job even those who were owed more than $20K.  The couldn't file mechanic liens against the Owners.  They could only attempt to collect from the dead designer's estate and there wasn't any money there.  They met with me and hired me to finish the floors and do punchlist work.  They also agreed to pay the $600ish after all the dust settled as a retention bonus.

The flooring was delivered to the dining room on the first floor.  They demanded that I start installing the next day.  I explained about the need for acclimation but they insisted and I got a written waiver of warranty signed and witnessed.  I then had to haul all that wood up onto the second floor.  The first floor had 14' ceiling and that stairway nearly killed me.  I'm not a big guy and carrying full boxes of flooring was more than my back and body could reasonably stand.  All during the remainder of the job the Owner would try to get me to commit to building out their home theater room.  I stayed quiet on that with vomit in my mouth.

The last thing I had to do was install some glass shower doors that the Owner had supplied.  After installing three the last one exploded in my face as I lifted it out of its box.  I wiped the blood off my face, said a little thank you to the guy above for sparing my eyes, cleaned up, packed up and walked out.  I invoiced and got paid.

Did I ever receive my retention bonus?  Of course not.  But she did call me a year later about providing a cost for redoing her third floor deck.  I declined.

Lesson learned.

Peter

The designer committed suicide??!! They refused to pay other contractors 20k bills . . And you went back to work for them?? Jesus Peter you must have needed work.
 
Sheesh Peter...there's a lot to unpack in that story. The victims...the perpetrators...the innocent.  [sad]

I'm glad I entered remodeling as a hobby and not as a profession. That's allowed me to walk away at any moment.

Suicide because of an unpaid invoice...that just makes me thankful for what I have.  :o :o :o
 
I've been pretty lucky over the years, only had maybe one or two nasty customers, the rest have been either fantastic, or at least very decent. Of course whenever I hung a door, they'd always trot out the "while you're here and setup, can you put the old front door on the back?". If it was doable I'd offer it at 3/4 rate, but most times they backed out, or were shown it was a waste of time and cost due to damage, etc.

I did have one customer refuse to pay one time as she found two pinhead sized bubbles in some grout along an edge!
 
luvmytoolz said:
I did have one customer refuse to pay one time as she found two pinhead sized bubbles in some grout along an edge!

[big grin] I’ve discovered over the years that my customers fall broadly into two camps - 1) The ‘big-picture’ folks who stand back and look at the entire, finished project with big smiles, or the 2) ‘micro-managers’ who obsess over tiny little details which need a microscope to be visible. Worst of all though, are the jobs like working for a guy who once put a shelf up - so is now an expert on everything. These guys always reveal themselves on day #2. I clean up and stack my tools neatly in a corner of the room, often with a 6-foot Stabila level leaning up against the wall.

I arrive on day #2 = and the level’s moved.
 
mrB said:
[

The designer committed suicide??!! They refused to pay other contractors 20k bills . . And you went back to work for them?? Jesus Peter you must have needed work.

I was wrong about the date - it was late summer 2018.  I am not too proud to say that there have been several times during the twenty-one years I worked for myself that I was on the brink and did do work despite the distaste so that I could pay my bills.

Another VERY LONG example from exactly 10 years ago:

Although carpentry was my primary occupation I also had a second company that managed planned communities, condos, and townhomes.  It was set up originally as a company to employ my wife but turned out to be something I eventually ran entirely.  I managed one community for twenty years and also did carpentry contracting work there where it was feasible after we worked out all potential conflict of interest issues.  I also did some work for the individual owners at their decision.

In 2014 I was not feeling well and things again were financially rough.  One of the Owners (let's call him X) approached me about replacing the wooden walking surfaces going up to his second floor condo.  He wanted to switch from pressure treated 1.5" thick lumber to 1" thick synthetic.  He needed me to do it while his family was staying there and that was their only means of ingress/egress.  There were two sets of steps - both more than 7 feet wide at the shortest width.  And because of the use of a thinner decking material every piece of framing had to be shimmed 1/2" taller to make up for the reduce decking board thickness.  And the steps needed to have stringers or supporting framing every 9 inches per the decking manufacturer's requirements.

He would supply the decking material and the hidden fasteners and I would supply the remainder as well as the labor.  he would reimburse for the materials I purchased up front and then I would be allowed one partial labor payment draw.  Any extras would be charged at my hourly rate for labor and actual cost for materials.  A detailed proposal was draw up and I luckily required a signature.  That was unusual for me because I worked on a handshake and only got screwed over twice in the twenty-one years.

So X ordered the Trex decking from Lowes but couldn't get I everything I needed.  He also got the wrong fasteners that would have voided the warranty.  He expected me to then go pick it all up.  Nope.  I made him pay to have it delivered and placed in his garage .  I had to order the remainder, the special router bit and the correct hidden fasteners.  He paid me for the materials that I had purchased although he groused about paying for the Trex router bit needed for some of the boards.I was all ready to get started although I was feeling terrible and had lost about 20% of my body weight (and anyone who has met me could tell you I never was a big guy with a lot to spare.)

Then I was diagnosed with an odd form of testicular cancer that had formed a huge tumor in my back.  I tried to schedule the medical stuff for after the work was done but it was explained to me in very clear terms that I had two weeks before I would be untreatable.  The tumor was growing around my heart at a rate of about 10% per week per the imaging and I was now stage 3 including bone cancer of the spine.  I explained all this to X and started to bust ass betting things done before I headed off for treatment.  Got the first landing done and in doing so realized that productivity was down to about 25% physically and then the conditions I was working under - especially allowing constant access to his home was not helping.  Always looking over your shoulder, wasn't able to wear a tool belt, tools always out of the way and not where you needed them.

X had full knowledge of what was going on but certainly didn't make my life any easier by altering their schedule.  They did have another home about 12 miles away but they were now in my hair on a daily basis. I ended up going in for surgery to remove one testicle - the source of the cancer - and after a few days of recovery went back to work.  Upon getting to the job there was a note to call X.  X had examined the work that I had done while I was away (note that he was always looking at it every single day while I was working also) and questioned why I had not painted the framing under the deck surface black.  And why were the boards spaced so far apart.  I explained that he had never told me he wanted the framing painted black, it wasn't in the proposal that he signed, and the deck board spacing was dictated by the hidden fasteners he wanted.  He demanded black, so I tore up all I had done except for all the additional framing I had installed and grabbed some spray cans of black paint and went to town knowing all too well that the paint would fail due to the wet pressure treated lumber.  Then I reinstalled the decking. And went off to chemo.

Chemo was full hospitalization out of town for 5 days in a row 10 hours a day.  Then I would be home for two weeks before another round.  Four rounds were expected.  I came back from the first round feeling like I was going to have an easy time of all this and went back to work within a couple of days.  My hair had already all fallen out.  It was obvious to hose who knew me what was going on.  I forged forward making progress as quickly as I was able but that wasn't saying a lot.  Seems I spent more time being unproductive setting up and putting stuff away.  And I was having to reframe the stairs one step at a time using a method my architect brother and I came up with.  I couldn't tear out everything and install new stringers due to them coming and going throughout the day.  They weren't so bad but the teenage grandchildren were in and out all the time - even jumping over me while I was working.

Friends I had in the community asked me why I was killing myself and I explained that if work did not progress he could claim that I abandoned the job and then take action including screwing me out of anything already owed.  I pushed on one step at a time even taking some time off for the urgent care visit when I attached a piece of wood to my thumb using a nail gun.  My first experience of doing THAT.  I got 3/4 of the way thru the job and asked for a partial payment of 1/2 what the total job labor would be.  A couple of days after the request X came up to me when no one was around to witness the conversation and told me that I looked like crap and that he was going to hold back all funds as an incentive for me to finish.  Then he turned away and went inside.  Just like that.  I was already losing my butt but now this was just an insult to injury.  I was shaking uncontrollably and managed to walk back to my truck and cry.

I finished up my chemo the day after Thanksgiving that year and still managed to finish his project before Christmas even though I was so bad off that the decision was made to discontinue chemo early due to my health.  I needed to go back to Maryland for blood transfusions twice between end of chemo and Christmas.  Yet, somehow I finished.  I presented my invoice for the agreed upon labor please extras for materials needed for unforeseen damage discovered (but not for any oops I made in estimating or not measuring twice before cutting while operating under chemo fog) and also for damaged boards that he had supplied.  I asked for a punchlist by January 15th (after the holidays) and spent the best and worst Christmas at home with MacGyver, Goldie Hawn, and Shadow who experienced the really bad times with me at home away from other people.

After numerous requests for a punchlist over the next few months and then arguments about the final bill I was finally paid in May 2015 - basically 5 months following completion.  I came out of that experience changed due to my renewed lease on life but with a bad taste only because of that job.  I count my blessings everyday and this year will enjoy a sip of champagne with my wife this year on the day after Thanksgiving.

oh, you might wonder what X did as a profession.  He was a retired personal injury attorney who then became a mad of the cloth and evangelist.  Strangely I have worked for two customers who had that exact career path and politely I hope that both have their own special place in the afterlife if there is one.

Peter

P.S. I warned you in advance that it would be long... [big grin]

 
Getting paid was constantly on my mind when I was trying to make a living as a portrait photographer. 

One of my clients was the head of neurosurgery at a major hospital.  He lived in a house in Sands Point that probably cost more than 2 million dollars.  He owed me $1,300.00 and despite frequent letters (this was in 1978) he was not responding.

I was venting to one of my neighbors who replied, “Really.  He seemed really nice.  He was my daughter’s surgeon.”  She went on to say that he shared an office with some other surgeons, and that she had his business card.

His business card listed his fax number.  A huge advantage of the fax machine is that a bunch of underlings get to read the message before the recipient sees it. 

My fax was about 10 pages and included the original invoice plus all the additional requests for payment. 

Apparently, his office was abuzz with this, and just as apparently, he was not well-liked in that office.

That fax got me a phone call—a very angry phone call—from that doctor who threatened to sue me. 

It is often repeated in legal circles that “truth” is an absolute and total defense against liability.  I reminded him of that fact, and that I intended to send reminder notices weekly.

I got my check a few days later.

Embarrassment is a potent weapon in getting paid.

Both telegrams and faxes were useful in embarrassing the recipient in that the message was read (or heard, in the case of a telegram) by others first.

You can’t send telegrams anymore.  Do businesses still have faxes that spit out paper?

 
Peter Halle said:
P.S. I warned you in advance that it would be long... [big grin]

It was a long read Peter but a good one.  [big grin]

Thanks for sharing.

I sometimes wonder when animals are around their owners and those owners/family members are going through difficult times/issues how much the pet is able to emote and how that affects the animal?
 
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