You're WAY underpricing yourself

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If someone can charge $200 for this, you guys need to up your rates.

Are you charging enough for your work? How do you know? Do you have to turn down work because you're too busy? Are your rates based on your competition or do you charge a premium based on your quality of work? What are your competitive advantages and do you leverage them?

I've read some blog posts over the years about this, but let's see what you guys have to say.

I think this could be an interesting discussion.  [popcorn]

square-register-stand-500x500.jpg


http://www.tinkeringmonkey.com/square-register-stand
 
Your supposed to charge for this stuff?

My rates are based on hard data. There are some jobs I charge a premium for.

Tom

 
Shane Holland said:
If someone can charge $200 for this, you guys need to up your rates.

Right?

Are you charging enough for your work?

Yes, very much so.

How do you know?

Several ways. We are too expensive for many customers, which we track through closing rate. Generally, at least for paint contractors, but this probably holds true for contracting in general, if your closing rate is much over about 30%, you probably could or should be charging more. Of course, that is a function of lead generation capacity. The real question is: when you go out on an estimate, do you feel that you have to close every prospect? The most important way that we know is because we have a highly competent bookkeeper who tracks every activity within our business and creates the weekly and monthly financials that are the dashboard for our business. Financial information has to be accurate. Contractors who attempt to do their own bookkeeping, literally DO their own bookkeeping themselves, are doing themselves the biggest disservice. Even Quickbooks is just not as simple as people want it to be. Anyways, proper and accurate jobcosting are the best way to assess the prices at which you sell. Estimating rates and production efficiency are assessed accordingly. None of this happens by accident, at least not for the long term. That is why the more challenging economic climate has made it difficult for so many. When the economy is flush and everyone has lots of work, just about anyone can be a contractor. Not so much right now, which is a good thing and healthy.

Do you have to turn down work because you're too busy?

Alot. The way we look at this question is, do you let the workload determine the size of your labor force or vice versa. We prefer to let our optimum size as a company determine the workload we can take on (based on 2000 man hour years), most companies go the other way on this one, where they hire as needed based on workload. This has just never made sense to us because it is not a sustainable model.

Are your rates based on your competition or do you charge a premium based on your quality of work?

Competition, never. Quality of work sometimes. Service we deliver, always.

What are your competitive advantages and do you leverage them?

The services we offer, at the level that we offer them, and our staff that delivers those services. This is where alot of people go wrong. Its not about your logo, how cool your website/t shirts/trucks are.
 
Shane Holland said:
If someone can charge $200 for this, you guys need to up your rates.

square-register-stand-500x500.jpg

I don't think $200 for that is unreasonable at all, but it sounds like you do.

Really good quality plywood is, at least here in the UK, horrendously expensive. Sure, there's not much of it in each stand, but it all adds up.

I'm guessing that the components are CNC cut. The overheads for running a CNC aren't cheap, nor are they to buy. Then you think about the labour for assembly, sanding, and finishing. They're not done in China on slave labour. And what about the time & effort someone put in to designing it, building prototypes, and getting it to the point where it can be sold?

Working for a company like Festool, I would have thought you'd appreciate that good design & quality costs money?
 
Scott has a good grasp on how to charge and stay stable.

My experience is that most people in the construction world aren't charging enough which explains why most dont succeed.  I also agree with having accurate data and accounting.....this is essential for any growing business.

My rates have gone up over the last two years and naturally this means a lower closing rate as Scott mentioned.  Although I don't have to close near as many jobs to make the same so its actually a benefit.  For me one of the best ways to being stable is to offer a range of services.  A business is like any other investment....its best to be diversified. 

I read someplace that the best way to get an Idea of what one should charge is to call the local Auto Garages and check hourly rates......if you aren't close then its  time to reevaluate.  In my area Auto mechanics, Plumbers, HVAC, and Electricians are all about the same in price per hour.

 
 
Scott B. said:
Its not about your logo, how cool your website/t shirts/trucks are.[/i]

I have to agree to a certain point.
I got business without a nice website or business cards etc. but I got cleaned up, dressed up and arrived on time when asked to discuss projects customers were contemplating. If I show up to a initial meeting with a 5 day (beard) growth and pants around my ankles (exaggerated for affect) I am not going to get asked to do the project.
Most of my clients have lived with something less than they want, have the means to pay a premium price and have shopped around for a cabinet (Ikea to Ethan Allen etc.) to solve their problem, but usually cannot find exactly what they want (locally) at any price so a custom solution is their only choice. I am selling a luxury good. No one needs a cabinet to survive.
Tim
 
Tim Raleigh said:
Scott B. said:
Its not about your logo, how cool your website/t shirts/trucks are.[/i]

I have to agree to a certain point.
I got business without a nice website or business cards etc. but I got cleaned up, dressed up and arrived on time when asked to discuss projects customers were contemplating. If I show up to a initial meeting with a 5 day (beard) growth and pants around my ankles (exaggerated for affect) I am not going to get asked to do the project.
Most of my clients have lived with something less than they want, have the means to pay a premium price and have shopped around for a cabinet (Ikea to Ethan Allen etc.) to solve their problem, but usually cannot find exactly what they want (locally) at any price so a custom solution is their only choice. I am selling a luxury good. No one needs a cabinet to survive.
Tim

Those are the icing on the cake items, in my opinion. When all the correct infrastructure is in place, sure, spend time polishing out that stuff. The problem is, at least in my industry, too many contractors never get the business side of it straight.

Michael Gerber's book, The E-Myth describes it well in the sense that too many small business owners are great technicians who at some point had an entrepreneurial seizure. While I don't agree with alot of what that book says, I do strongly agree with his assessment of small business owner personality types.

To your point about cabinetry, no, your customers don't "need" a custom cabinet to survive. But they sure do want one. The higher end niche customers buy completely out of want rather than need, in my business. It is interesting to assess customer needs. We serve all ends of the spectrum. those who will be just mortified if a cocktail party guest spots a cobweb in the soffet, and those who just don't want to have to replace their 25 year old pt deck in this lifetime. Both are purchasing out of desire as much as need. It is never boring.
 
Shane Holland said:
If someone can charge $200 for this, you guys need to up your rates.

I think it's not a bad price for a business to business product.
I don't really like the design/finishes much but some real thought has gone into it and I am sure it will appeal to some retailers.

Why do you feel this is high priced materials estimated time to create one etc. etc..
Tim

 
Good thread this Shane.

Big kudos for Scott to state you need to know you've got all stuff sorted, not just the workshop, that the machine is running smoothly and you know how to run it. That the organization is not a worry but even better that you are actually in the driver seat. What I used to do and what I've seen most of my colleagues do is estimate so that most offers get accepted. That is getting you absolutely nowhere, except keep things exactly as they are. I'm no expert but lowering your prices to the budget of the masses might be common tactics in retail but not with the services like most here deliver. If 30% is the mark then I'm not there yet, I like to think om on the right track though.;)
But anyway, Scott is very right (correct me if I got the wrong message Scott) in that if your business side of things is anything but crystal clear you're simply in the dark on what you should charge.

Comparing prices with colleagues is so tricky. I know I calculate more per hour than most of my direct colleagues but I find it hard to compare the products so what does that tell me? I like to think the quality of my work stands well above average so comparing prices to an average woodworker doesn't tell me much. I also like to think I go the extra mile and that service as such stands above average, so how do I compare myself to others when I have never experienced them as from the perspective of a client? Comparing your prices with colleagues only tells you so much and can easily lead you in the wrong direction.

Pricing seems to be a taboo subject, it is always about the love for wood and how we all love to be in the shop and get our hands dirty and such. Sure, but that doesn't change when you've got the financial side sorted. In fact, I find it clears your head so, that you enjoy the work a lot more.

Have to say though that I've never changed clothes when going to a client Tim. In all honesty I do not see how, being a small or one man business that is, a client will be persuaded by fresh clothes and after shave. I've gone to meetings with clients and architects regarding big projects, straight from the shop floor and I am pretty sure the things I said regarding the work itself have gained me the credits that brought the work to me. I mean, I would be careful not to smell bad or drag wood dust all over there carpet or things like that, I like to think I'm professional. But getting out of my workers, I don't see the point. I'll spray myself of with the air hose and get in the car. If you're running a medium sized or large operation and you're in charge of visits for estimate it's a different story.

Going to check that Gerber book now.... ;)
 
Scott, before I press the button to get a digital copy of the E-Myth as it seems interesting, would you recommend it yes or no?

Cheers!
 
Bob Gerritsen said:
Scott, before I press the button to get a digital copy of the E-Myth as it seems interesting, would you recommend it yes or no?

Cheers!

Bob,

Overall, yes I would. It is a quick and easy read. Alot of it will ring true with most of us who pursue business in the trades. It covers alot of practical info and holds the mirror up in front of you a bit. Where it loses appeal for me is that it suggests that small businesses should run more like franchises, wherein the ultimate goal is an absentee owner, a model which I think is not practical at all in the trades, or at least not in the world I live in. But yes, overall, a good read.
 
Good post, Scott. I know from talking with you and learning about your company that you're quite the savvy businessman in a niche market.

I just see posts here from time to time about what to charge. I think there are some who are probably under charging for their work. The point of the thread was to provoke responses and opinions on how to gauge whether you're charging enough. There are a lot of good remodelers, contractors, cabinet and furniture guys, etc. that aren't necessarily good business people per se.

Here's an example from another industry... My brother works as the director of web design for an agency. They are ALWAYS scrambling to keep up with the quantity of work and deadlines. To me, that means they are undercharging. They could do less work with the same amount of profit or more. I think Scott offers some valid insight on the matter.

I guess that iPad holder wasn't the best or most extreme example of charging a premium, but when I saw it I thought, "heck, I could make that for a lot less". I'm not in the market for such a thing and was actually on their website because it was link from a blog post I was reading. But, it triggered a reaction and made me think of you guys.

I hope this thread continues and those who are professionals and make a living with tools can share and learn from one another. Your success is important, after all.  [wink]
 
Bob Gerritsen said:
Have to say though that I've never changed clothes when going to a client Tim. In all honesty I do not see how, being a small or one man business that is, a client will be persuaded by fresh clothes and after shave. I've gone to meetings with clients and architects regarding big projects, straight from the shop floor and I am pretty sure the things I said regarding the work itself have gained me the credits that brought the work to me. I mean, I would be careful not to smell bad or drag wood dust all over there carpet or things like that, I like to think I'm professional. But getting out of my workers, I don't see the point. I'll spray myself of with the air hose and get in the car. If you're running a medium sized or large operation and you're in charge of visits for estimate it's a different story.

Getting cleaned gets me out of technician mode and into business manager/sales/marketing mode. It's more about setting the tone with clients vs. the (marginal) affect on clients.
Why would it make a difference what size of business you run. I am in charge of visits for my estimates.
Tim
 
Scott B. said:
Michael Gerber's book, The E-Myth describes it well in the sense that too many small business owners are great technicians who at some point had an entrepreneurial seizure. While I don't agree with alot of what that book says, I do strongly agree with his assessment of small business owner personality types.

You might like My come up for some inspiring stories.
Tim
 
Tim Raleigh said:
Bob Gerritsen said:
Have to say though that I've never changed clothes when going to a client Tim. In all honesty I do not see how, being a small or one man business that is, a client will be persuaded by fresh clothes and after shave. I've gone to meetings with clients and architects regarding big projects, straight from the shop floor and I am pretty sure the things I said regarding the work itself have gained me the credits that brought the work to me. I mean, I would be careful not to smell bad or drag wood dust all over there carpet or things like that, I like to think I'm professional. But getting out of my workers, I don't see the point. I'll spray myself of with the air hose and get in the car. If you're running a medium sized or large operation and you're in charge of visits for estimate it's a different story.

Getting cleaned gets me out of technician mode and into business manager/sales/marketing mode. It's more about setting the tone with clients vs. the (marginal) affect on clients.
Why would it make a difference what size of business you run. I am in charge of visits for my estimates.
Tim

Tim, I hear what you say with what cleaning up might do with yourself and the different modes but still don't get it from the clients point of view. With regards to the size, I meant to say that a business with say 10 guys on the floor might have 1 guy doing all visits, no need for that guy to wear work-wear.

Thanks for that link btw, looks promising.
 
Bob Gerritsen said:
But anyway, Scott is very right (correct me if I got the wrong message Scott) in that if your business side of things is anything but crystal clear you're simply in the dark on what you should charge.

Bob,

Yes, you are reading me correctly.

It is about as much fun for most small business owners to talk about as root canal is. Most of us start small, one man sole proprietorships. Thats where I started in '90 and I did it solo for years, simply filing a 1040ez at the end of the year. Thats all pretty simple, but life becomes just a function of how to attract 40 hours per week of work for yourself, how to do the 40 hours of work whilest scheduling and outfitting the next. It becomes a treadmill pretty quick.

That is one aspect of Gerber's book that rang true for me. The number of hats we wear as a sole proprietor. There are not enough hours in the week to do it all, or at least to do it effectively.

Especially if you are attempting to do all of it, including the bookkeeping and accounting. Back to that in a minute.

So, as a sole proprietor, I did most of my business by selling quality work through word of mouth (no marketing expenses). And I was WAY underpriced, even by 1990 standards. So I got REAL busy, and fast. I had one property management account for which I painted all of their student apartment turnovers. All of the houses were old (what we call) hill section Victorians. I literally could not keep up with the work. Long story short, you get to the point where you need help. So you get a helper. Then, your time is spent as a trainer and supervisor, rather than a technician. You become Gerber's manager. (Managing by the way, in my opinion, is a skill that most of us are not adequately prepared to do, so you learn fast on the fly). Then, the person you hired needs a paycheck, and your business entity and ability to process payroll taxes and handle the w-2/w-4 side of things becomes an issue. Or, maybe you decide your helper is a "sub", or just a cash assistant, and start treading a precarious tightrope. Many take this short cut. With each new helper you take on, you start to realize that you don't need or want "help". You need to not babysit. Which means you need to pay well, and create real full time opportunity for others. And have cash flow to pay every week or two. And, you need more marketing than word of mouth at that point, so you start to really have to look at the business side.

You probably get the drift. Anyways, in my experience with my business, the 3 most important human assets to bring on board (no later than when you are considering more of a labor force than just yourself), are a good:

- bookkeeper
- accountant
- lawyer

Bookkeeper handles all billing, tracking a/r, payroll, payroll taxes, quarterlies, payables (making sure all bills are paid quickly), job costing, generation of all financials (weekly/monthly/quarterly/ytd/yty comp) P&L and balance sheets, etc. This is the most important person in my business. She makes me more money by far than it costs to have her. In interest alone. I could sit here all day and write about the ways our bookkeeper makes us money by handling our money well. There is not a nickle that runs through the business that doesnt hit the most capable hands in the group.

Accountant for obvious reasons. You never, ever want to have the IRS notify you that you missed a report or payment a couple of years ago. Thats costly in dollars and time. And you really want your state and federal returns properly done. Ours are about 70 pages long annually. My accountant is the one who helped me figure out what I needed to charge in our current level of operation, and our bookkeeper has made sure it gets tweaked every time it needs to. Internally, we handle issues of different services that need to be billed at different rates.

Lawyer advises you on proper corporate structure and confers with accountant on tax treatment of the entity. Lawyer also makes sure that all corporate documents are current and proper in your state or governing entity. Also advises on delinquent account issues and handles any lien situations that come up. Also, and perhaps most importantly, advises on employment law. Such as, when you start getting former employees who think they might have accumulated a chronic knee or wrist problem while on your watch.

You yourself, as the owner, need to be constantly running the SWOT test over your business, inside and out. As soon as you see concerns, you consult whichever the 3 above listed resources the concern falls under. You do all of this while handling marketing, sales, hiring, supervising, firing, crm and trying not to go nuts.

Bottom line, there is no need to have to run a small business looking over your shoulder all the time, or dreading your walk to the mailbox.

Its chicken and egg. Lots of contractors tell me they can't afford to set up this way. If you don't at least have the bookkeeping properly done, you will have a difficult time really knowing how you are doing. It would be like driving a car with no dashboard or gauges whatsoever. Just keep pumping pumping gas into it and driving. With the right info, you make informed decisions and accelerate the learning curve. Lots of guys tell me they do their own quickbooks. Sure, any one can figure out how to crank invoices out of qb. Thats just enough to get checks coming in. Unless you happened to get an associates in accounting in college, I wouldn't bother trying to figure out that discipline. You will be about as effective as handing your bookkeeper a TS55 and rails.

Anyways, sorry about the short novel. It is a topic of great import.
 
Am I underpricing myself?  I don't think so.  

How do I gauge this? Because I don't get every job I'm going after?  Because I'm busy, but not too busy (by choice).  

Over the past three years of being self-employed, I have spent more money on tools, materials, truck maintenance, telephones, etc.  Yet for the first time I'm my life I am free of credit card debt.  This is no coincidence.  I also finally have some cushion in my savings account.

Does this mean I'm making more money than when I was employed?  Or am I just more disciplined with my money now that I am responsible for bringing it in?  

I have no clear answers for the questions above.  But I do know that now that I do have some savings and confidence built up over the last few years, my outlook on charging has changed.  I no longer "need" to get THAT job to in order to pay the bills.  This allows me to charge not only what I need to charge, but to charge more.  Because, ultimately, I really forget sometimes just how skilled I am.  Certain jobs have become so "easy" to me, I can't believe that someone would pay me a premium to do certain tasks, like modifying a cabinet to accept a different (usually expensive) appliance, or cutting interior doors down because they rub.  I need to remind myself of this nearly every time before i hand an estimate to a client.  I have a friend and colleague that also reminds me of this too, regularly.

I ramble...My bills are paid.  I have work coming in, but now I am actively looking to build my business instead of just being a worker bee.  I am not undercharging (I hope.)

 
 
I'm like Tim when its comes to how I look.  Sometimes I even wear a Tie!  Like Tim said its for me not just the client......although I've found one needs to be viewed as a professional to be paid like one.  Sadly "professionals" are the ones who wear wing tips and ties......right?  Its actually a lot of fun when someone says "What do you do" and I respond with "I own and run a Remodel Company."  There faces are worth the effort!  I'm not only interested in making money but changing the industry....one client at a time!  

Great Post Scott.  Luckily my wife has a Bachelors in Accounting and works at a CPA firm.  I couldn't do it without her!  My need for a Lawyer goes up every year.  Currently I just make a phone call or email with my questions and get a Bill for the advice.
 
My rates are the cost of materials plus a suitable donation to a charity.

But, I can afford this since I am retired.   [smile]

I average about 30 hours a week doing work for others and I turn down most (probably 80%) offers for work.   I never solicit work.  Most of these offers are for real money to me based upon word of mouth about items I have made or work I have done.  When I do accept a job, I am able to purchase top of the line material and to take more time than I might because I am not atempting to make a living profit -simply a reasonable wage donated to a charity.  
 
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