You're WAY underpricing yourself

Bob Gerritsen said:
...still don't get it from the clients point of view.

It's not for the clients, it's for me and my business.
It's my standard. It's says "this is who I am". That's not to criticize anyone else or their approach. Frankly it's a pain in the butt to change in the middle of a project, but it really is what I am creating and selling.
Like many here, I am hired to solve problems and my personal presentation is a reflection of the type of solution and execution they can expect.
It's really about my objectives and vision what I want my business to be, the kind of projects I want and the kinds of clients I want to attract and deal with.
Tim
 
I have a 6 month beard. I will be damned if I have to shave impress a customer.

I turn down more work then I accept. I am expensive for my area, but I am able to pick and choose what I want to do.

Most don't have a clue what it really costs them just to wake up and go to work.
 
My rate is high enough for me to never say "screw this", and I'll always think they deserve to have me finish it the right way (they'll remember that, not the money) but never high enough for the people I work for to say "screw him". I'll work for less, closer to home, or less complicated work.
I like to have made enough two or three jobs ago that I don't have to chase somebody for money but can be laid back a little bit when it is coming in. I'd rather be the one cutting someone else some slack as long as they don't run with it. People remember that too, and it makes you the one they want around on a tight deadline for a tough client. I tend to sub myself or do jobs small enough to handle on my own. No brains, no headaches.
Having said that, I wish I did estimate more jobs. I'm not T&M, usually just hourly. I don't get the big markups, so maybe I'm leaving money on the table, but I've been around long enough to see people lose a lot of hair all at once because they massively underestimated.
Take it all with a grain of salt, I also have four or five other industries I work in to protect myself against seasonal or demand dips in the market.
 
Tim Raleigh said:
Bob Gerritsen said:
...still don't get it from the clients point of view.

It's not for the clients, it's for me and my business.
It's my standard. It's says "this is who I am". That's not to criticize anyone else or their approach. Frankly it's a pain in the butt to change in the middle of a project, but it really is what I am creating and selling.
Like many here, I am hired to solve problems and my personal presentation is a reflection of the type of solution and execution they can expect.
It's really about my objectives and vision what I want my business to be, the kind of projects I want and the kinds of clients I want to attract and deal with.
Tim

Tim, thanks for taking the effort to respond to my nagging. ;) I totally undstand what you are saying, it turns out we simply have totally different views on 'pr' and getting new commissions. I find that really intriguing for some reason, that's what I like about the Internet, that you can get in touch with different views. Would love to see your work btw, do you have a gallery here?

Cheers!
 
Scott B. said:
Bob Gerritsen said:
But anyway, Scott is very right (correct me if I got the wrong message Scott) in that if your business side of things is anything but crystal clear you're simply in the dark on what you should charge.

Bob,

Yes, you are reading me correctly.

It is about as much fun for most small business owners to talk about as root canal is. Most of us start small, one man sole proprietorships. Thats where I started in '90 and I did it solo for years, simply filing a 1040ez at the end of the year. Thats all pretty simple, but life becomes just a function of how to attract 40 hours per week of work for yourself, how to do the 40 hours of work whilest scheduling and outfitting the next. It becomes a treadmill pretty quick.

That is one aspect of Gerber's book that rang true for me. The number of hats we wear as a sole proprietor. There are not enough hours in the week to do it all, or at least to do it effectively.

Especially if you are attempting to do all of it, including the bookkeeping and accounting. Back to that in a minute.

So, as a sole proprietor, I did most of my business by selling quality work through word of mouth (no marketing expenses). And I was WAY underpriced, even by 1990 standards. So I got REAL busy, and fast. I had one property management account for which I painted all of their student apartment turnovers. All of the houses were old (what we call) hill section Victorians. I literally could not keep up with the work. Long story short, you get to the point where you need help. So you get a helper. Then, your time is spent as a trainer and supervisor, rather than a technician. You become Gerber's manager. (Managing by the way, in my opinion, is a skill that most of us are not adequately prepared to do, so you learn fast on the fly). Then, the person you hired needs a paycheck, and your business entity and ability to process payroll taxes and handle the w-2/w-4 side of things becomes an issue. Or, maybe you decide your helper is a "sub", or just a cash assistant, and start treading a precarious tightrope. Many take this short cut. With each new helper you take on, you start to realize that you don't need or want "help". You need to not babysit. Which means you need to pay well, and create real full time opportunity for others. And have cash flow to pay every week or two. And, you need more marketing than word of mouth at that point, so you start to really have to look at the business side.

You probably get the drift. Anyways, in my experience with my business, the 3 most important human assets to bring on board (no later than when you are considering more of a labor force than just yourself), are a good:

- bookkeeper
- accountant
- lawyer

Bookkeeper handles all billing, tracking a/r, payroll, payroll taxes, quarterlies, payables (making sure all bills are paid quickly), job costing, generation of all financials (weekly/monthly/quarterly/ytd/yty comp) P&L and balance sheets, etc. This is the most important person in my business. She makes me more money by far than it costs to have her. In interest alone. I could sit here all day and write about the ways our bookkeeper makes us money by handling our money well. There is not a nickle that runs through the business that doesnt hit the most capable hands in the group.

Accountant for obvious reasons. You never, ever want to have the IRS notify you that you missed a report or payment a couple of years ago. Thats costly in dollars and time. And you really want your state and federal returns properly done. Ours are about 70 pages long annually. My accountant is the one who helped me figure out what I needed to charge in our current level of operation, and our bookkeeper has made sure it gets tweaked every time it needs to. Internally, we handle issues of different services that need to be billed at different rates.

Lawyer advises you on proper corporate structure and confers with accountant on tax treatment of the entity. Lawyer also makes sure that all corporate documents are current and proper in your state or governing entity. Also advises on delinquent account issues and handles any lien situations that come up. Also, and perhaps most importantly, advises on employment law. Such as, when you start getting former employees who think they might have accumulated a chronic knee or wrist problem while on your watch.

You yourself, as the owner, need to be constantly running the SWOT test over your business, inside and out. As soon as you see concerns, you consult whichever the 3 above listed resources the concern falls under. You do all of this while handling marketing, sales, hiring, supervising, firing, crm and trying not to go nuts.

Bottom line, there is no need to have to run a small business looking over your shoulder all the time, or dreading your walk to the mailbox.

Its chicken and egg. Lots of contractors tell me they can't afford to set up this way. If you don't at least have the bookkeeping properly done, you will have a difficult time really knowing how you are doing. It would be like driving a car with no dashboard or gauges whatsoever. Just keep pumping pumping gas into it and driving. With the right info, you make informed decisions and accelerate the learning curve. Lots of guys tell me they do their own quickbooks. Sure, any one can figure out how to crank invoices out of qb. Thats just enough to get checks coming in. Unless you happened to get an associates in accounting in college, I wouldn't bother trying to figure out that discipline. You will be about as effective as handing your bookkeeper a TS55 and rails.

Anyways, sorry about the short novel. It is a topic of great import.

Thanks for this, Scott, this is sticky worthy material! I've managed to read some snippets of the Gerber book online, it seems to only be available as a hard copy ( totally into ebooks atthe moment) so I will have to order and wait for it but I'm sensing this might turn out to be the missing piece in my puzzle. I've been restructuring, or rather structuring my business for some time now and the Gerber method seems to be the missing link so to speak. I might ask you some more question in the near future, I find it inspiring the way you have stuff sorted! Thanks a bunch!
 
i under charge sometimes, and I over charge some times and some times I get it just right ! :)

I have a friend who does built ins but it takes him 2 times as long as it does me because he spends way too much time on exactness and very anal. so he tries and charges 2 times my price and does not have any jobs cuz people are not going pay 6 gran for a 3 gran built in cuz he takes too long, yes very rarely he will book a job and it is perfect, he marks with a knife and everything is exact. but he is broke.

me I do a very good job but its not perfect and my built ins look awesome and I do book lots of work and get it done and my customers are very happy
I will give a price some times for lets say $2900 for a set of built ins.. the customer says wow thats a good price.. we had a price from someone else for $4200  yet another customer I give same price and they say wow we had a price for $2100 !! and others say well that sound good lets do it..

then you have the guy who can work faster, smarter and easier should he charge more cuz he is faster.. for example  lets say on a 3 gran job.. your material cost is 750 so labor is 2250... so if you work faster and can get it done in lets say 22 hours where the other guy takes 44 hours and makes 50 bucks and you make 100 how do you compare that ?  so if the guy wants to make 100 an hour for example instead of 50 then he would have to charge $2,250  more to make the same money, would customers want to pay him more ?

so in reality a lot of factors go into pricing a job.
 
As a mason contractor, biz was almost always slow during the winter.  Look-ats would start calling along about February for starts in late March or early April. 
I always hated estimating so early, but i used the estimates/responses as a partial barrometer for the upcoming season.  If i got all the jobs i estimated, i was bidding too low and made some adjustments. If i lost all of those early jobs, I was bidding too high and made adjustments accordingly.  I had the biz for over 30 years and was never out of work unless i wanted to be.  For a few years, i had a crew of 5 to 10 men and i hated it.  i was just the supervisor/office manager/estimator and etc, etc, etc.  I almost never got my hands on any of the actual work.  I enjoyed the actual work, so i finally cut back to using only one helper and sometimes an extra hands on mason.  I was getting much more unusual and interesting jobs.  I was not making any where near a much money working alone, but the work was far more enjoyable to me. 
Tinker
 
As long as you earn what you set out to earn then you are not under pricing even if someone did the same thing for twice the price. Everyone has their own price that they are happy with even if to some it may seem cheap/expensive.
 
Kreg is on to it when he talks about the speed and efficiency you work at. When I first started my carpentry company; building residences/cottages and specializing in interior finish work, it was hard to find out/know what to charge on a quoted project. I had no idea as to what my expenses were. A friend of mine had owned an auto repair shop for years and brought me up to speed as best he could with some basic business advice.

The going rate in my area for residential carpentry work is about $50.00/hr as billed out to the customer for a skilled tradesman. If I do work on a T&M basis at this rate I do fine, a decent income after all expenses are paid. When I tell people my rate (for those that want T&M work) I am one of many contractors they could choose from, that seem equally apealling. If I quote a job I allow an extra 12% in case things don't go as planned. I have found that I am usually on the low end of the quotes people receive and yet I make quite a bit more (more than the 12% I allowed) than if I had worked T&M. Since we started at the same baseline ourly rate it can only be the result of 2 things, the other guys allow even more as a cushion, or they are less efficient and allowed more time to complete the work.

So what's my point? As was already pointed out you absolutely need to know your costs, both direct and indirect expenses. You need to know/find out what the market will bear in your area and then to make a good (or better than just good) profit you need to maximize your efficiency. Faster, Easier, Smarter. Where have we heard that before?[wink] Part of this is knowing when to take the time to fine tune the details that domake a difference, and when good enough really and truly is good enough.

This comes from my perspective as owner of a small company, I work with one helper on every project. It goes without saying that larger companies with more staff and overhead complicates things, although in the end the basic methodology is the same, no?

j
 
Jason Kehl said:
It goes without saying that larger companies with more staff and overhead complicates things, although in the end the basic methodology is the same, no?

j

Not really. As you add employees, your overhead doesn't change all that much. In fact, overhead costs are covered by a larger billable labor force. Theoretically, with more people, you could actually charge less and make more. To a point.

Sometimes people who prefer to stay one man operations think that they can keep their costs down and remain competitive that way, when in fact a 3-5 person operation can beat them on production and price.

This article touches on that dynamic: Does Size Matter?

 
scott I agree with your point and you can make more money with a crew usually.
 
Scott B. said:
Jason Kehl said:
It goes without saying that larger companies with more staff and overhead complicates things, although in the end the basic methodology is the same, no?

This article touches on that dynamic: Does Size Matter?

Scott:
While I can quibble with the math, I think there is some great insight in this article.
This quote from Brandt Domas from the article is true for every business.
"....is to be exceptional, know their costs and build good relationships."
I think the last couple paragraphs of your article really encapsulates this discussion.
But there is no singular strategy for building a sustainable small business for long-term success. Whatever approach you are using to customize your business to fit your lifestyle needs and desires, go deep into it. Try bucking industry trends. For instance, instead of letting the workload dictate the size of your workforce, maybe find the sweet spot in size that fits your vision and let that drive the type of work you choose to take on, as well as how much of it you take on. Sometimes the best thing you can do is NOT do what everyone else is doing.
At the end of the day, the size of your business should be a reflection of how you want your livelihood to fit into your life. Whether your business features only you, or you and 30 other painters, finding the best fit for yourself and making it stick is the key.


Making your particular strategy and tactics stick is sometimes harder than just deciding on one, particularly if you have an unrealistic plan. Bigger can be better but as Tinker points out if you aren't happy and don't enjoy it, it ain't really working. As a small business owner it's difficult to stay on strategy and sometimes you find yourself with an organization you started that you are now a slave to because you wanted to more. At the end of the day I believe strategy drives decisions but many small business (particularly bootstrapped business) get strategically whipsawed by forces (micro and macro economic forces) beyond their control.

Tim

 
I really liked that part of the article as well. 

Personally I have no desire to build a business based on the popular Corporate model.  This demands "bucking industry trends" and "NOT doing what everyone else is doing." 

When I talk with other business owners they are confused by my direction.  They are using large corporate models of employees, branding, and marketing for a small business.  Its a good model to yield income but not necessarily happiness or good work.  Its a model that produces a generic product but almost always requires exploitation of its workforce.   

Like Scott Mentioned as a business takes on more employees the Visionary becomes a manager.  This is imperative to a point such as an Apprentice but only to eliminate the medial tasks reserving the Visionary for problem solving and technical work.  When the Artist stops painting its no longer a work of art.....imagine the value if the only point of contact is the Signature?

 
Jalvis said:
When the Artist stops painting its no longer a work of art.....imagine the value if the only point of contact is the Signature?

Several "artists" have put this to the test, notably Andy Warhol, Damian Hurst and Mark Kostabi to name a few contemporary artists. It could also be argued that Rubens and DiVinci had so many students/apprentices helping that it is sometimes difficult for historians to really discern who did what.
The point is I think that these "artists" were/are more concerned with the art of making money (manufacturing) vs. making something themselves. Nothing wrong with that. One of my favorite quotes is attributed to Andy Warhol "Making money is art and working is art and good business is the best art."
My other favorite quote is attributed to Churchill: “'You are drunk Sir Winston, you are disgustingly drunk. 'Yes, Mrs. Braddock, I am drunk. But you, Mrs. Braddock are ugly, and disgustingly fat. But, tomorrow morning, I, Winston Churchill will be sober.”
Tim
 
honeydokreg said:
i under charge sometimes, and I over charge some times and some times I get it just right ! :)

I have a friend who does built ins but it takes him 2 times as long as it does me because he spends way too much time on exactness and very anal. so he tries and charges 2 times my price and does not have any jobs cuz people are not going pay 6 gran for a 3 gran built in cuz he takes too long, yes very rarely he will book a job and it is perfect, he marks with a knife and everything is exact. but he is broke.

And you don't try to show your buddy the wisdom of your ways?  Nice friend, lol.  And he probably uses a knife 'cuz he afford the fancy festools...you should lend him yours.  ;D

Here you're moving up this way full time Kreg, Linda sell the house finally?
 
Scott B. said:
Bob Gerritsen said:
Scott, before I press the button to get a digital copy of the E-Myth as it seems interesting, would you recommend it yes or no?

Cheers!

Bob,

Overall, yes I would. It is a quick and easy read. Alot of it will ring true with most of us who pursue business in the trades. It covers alot of practical info and holds the mirror up in front of you a bit. Where it loses appeal for me is that it suggests that small businesses should run more like franchises, wherein the ultimate goal is an absentee owner, a model which I think is not practical at all in the trades, or at least not in the world I live in. But yes, overall, a good read.

Scott, thanks for mentioning this book!! I'm well into it now and I feel a veil has been lifted. Funny thing is, what you mentioned to be a less attractive concept to you, the idea to run your business as though it were a franchise, for me it feels as though that might be the big game changer in my situation. Well, that sounds a bit dramatic but when I look at my business with that idea in mind, all of a sudden many of these smaller and bigger questions get answered and things seem to start to move in the right direction.

Just to explain briefly, as many will not have read this book; Gerber sees three roles in each enterprise, the technician, the manager and the entrepreneur. All are important. He addresses the imbalance between these roles in most small businesses, causing failure basically through one of I believe three scenarios. He uses examples obviously and he is pretty clear about it all, stating that in the end the small business as a concept has such flaws that success in the economic sense is basically impossible. Sure you can keep yourself busy and provide a job for you but getting an appropriate pay for the hours is next to impossible.

Then he introduces the idea of running the business like a franchise. Meaning, your current business is to be seen as the prototype of future franchises that you can sell. This doesn't mean you will or even have to sell your business as such, it does however have you look at your business from a totally different perspective. It makes you have to consider all aspects from the bottom up. What I noticed is that looking at my business like that, it really opens my eyes to all these little things that are simply not right despite my biggest efforts and at the same time all these ideas come up to fix the issues. The idea of the franchise, which is sort of the ultimate in efficiency, I think is a very effective tool to tweak your business. Simply by looking at your business as that franchise prototype, you need to address issues that, sometimes without you realizing it are a drag on the flow of your business and eventually on finance. Anyway, that's what I've experienced the last couple weeks. For me this feels as a very simple and hands on approach to implement all of these snippets of information and ideas that I've been searching for and ran into.

In the end, following this logic you will re-organize your business from the ground up, also arriving at a very confident stance regarding the question of pricing. You cannot take this route without ending up knowing exactly what to charge and how this compares to competition if you have any.

So just to say thanks to Scott and recommend the book to fellow FOG-ers. In my case, I'm working on a very exciting big and new idea to steer my business in a new direction right now and this book has surely added to that.

Btw, he wrote a couple of different version, I'm listening to the original in audio book form but have ordered a paper copy of E-myth for contractors. I'm expecting there to be at least a couple good tips to supplement the original book.

Cheers, Bob.
 
Glad to hear it, Bob!

It is kind of like holding the mirror up in front of yourself and your business. We all need to step off the treadmill and get that reality check once in a while...
 
I dont see anything wrong with this guys priceing. Nothing at all. If people will pay, why not.

Charge what you think its worth plus profit.

About 18 years ago, I was building these country shelving units.

Just pine shleving with a milk paint.

I was selling them on the cheap not really making any money on them , in fact losing money when ya compute the shop time , material etc.

I was selling them to a freind of my wife's, who I thought was a friend of mine as well.

I sold her 2 I think.

Soon she said her daughter wanted a couple of them.

So I made them and sold them on the cheap through the wifes friend to her daughter.

Im  thinking that well her daughter is a friend to. As we been over her home for parties etc.

Soon she asked for a few more of them for her daughter, different colors/designs etc and soon more.

Then the complaints came in ,

Oh Ron this divider is crooked its horrible, awful, how could you sell this to me. Made it sound like it was a real POS, horrible build etc…

I honestly couldnt tell if it was crooked or not. My wife couldnt see anything wrong either.

So I had the wife hold it against my living room wall couldnt tell, We both ended up standing accross the room from it one taking turns looking at it. We turned on all the lights thinking a shadow may help us find it, and finally noticed a slight very slight out of square divider ( this one had something like 6 cubbies in it) so I took my square and checked it. It couldnt have been more then 1/32 out.

So I repaired it and gave it back to her.

Then she asked for more of them.

Soon I realized that she was reselling them for a profit. making money on my generosity.

I was building them for fun.

I talked to my mentor about the situation with the complaint and everything else that was going on.

He said Ron, Your not charging enough.

When you charge a premium price for some reason you dont get the silly arsed complaints.

I thought it would be the opposite. But I was wrong.

So I jacked my price up to the point where I would be getting what they were worth, well materials/ time. I think I raised the price to something $25-$30 bucks each.

That was still a steal.

Something like that at Pottery Barn would of gone for much more.

Suddenly, she quit asking for more. Her her re-sale I guess took a dump.

BTW she never mentioned that she was selling them. They were supposed to have been gifts for her/ daughters  to use in their home.

So I felt like she took advantage of me and was dishonest.

If she would of kicked me some back and or been honest about her re-selling them it would of been different.

I did it as a favor and that they were fun to build.

So the point is this, build something, charge what its worth make a profit.

Ive lived by that bit of advice for the last 15 years.

No mo piddley gators come my way now.

My mentor  and friend, Mr. P (RIP) , was a true Genius. I truely miss him.

Some advice from our mentors last a life time.

The moral of this tale of woe is this, charge what you think the roduct is worth include profit and when it comes to business you have no friends.

They pay the same, if I even work for them at all.
 
I know I have underpriced my self on this job and especially to day just dropped one of the units i was building face first on some steps and it pushed the doors in. 

Damaged the brand new Blum hinges broke the door and the curved rail in the middle. Few other places joints opened up slightly gutted!!!!!

  U can't really see how bad the damage is in the picture cus I bent it back but u can still see the left door is inwards. 
u7a9uba8.jpg


I got that angry I kicked the unit and hurt my foot and now I can't walk on it!!!!
 
All repaired now but took me over half a day cus I cudnt walk and I cudnt stop moaning at my self!!!  Very angry with my self

9egyzy6u.jpg
 
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