1400 vs. router table for furniture

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cparson

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Didn't want to hijack the first-festool thread, and this seemed off-topic enough to warrant a separate thread ???  so here goes...

Dave Rudy said:
Agreed.  For on top routing, this one is out of the ballpark.  All Festools are good, some are just over the top.  The 1400 is the latter.  Doesn't make sense to use it in a table, though, for a number of reasons.  You can get a bigger motor cheaper and won't miss the 1400 features if it's buried underneath the table.
Click to expand...

Anyways, for typical furniture making - cabinets, coffee tables, bookshelves, that sort of thing - what do people tend to use more (or, couldn't get by without) - the 1400 or a router table?

I was going to pick up the 1400 soon, mostly just to do roundovers on the bases of speaker stands, figuring it would also be the most flexible way to go for dados(dadoes?  how do you pluralize imaginary words? ;D)/rebates/etc.  My inexperienced guess is that I should be able to use the 1400 for just about everything except door panels... which I can get along without for now.  But if I'd be better served with a table, I could forego the festool for now  :'(

 
cparson said:
Anyways, for typical furniture making - cabinets, coffee tables, bookshelves, that sort of thing - what do people tend to use more (or, couldn't get by without) - the 1400 or a router table?
Click to expand...

For me, its not even close. I use the router table far more than any hand held router. I do almost all of my dados and rabbets on the TS (its so much faster), so its mostly edge work that gets done on the router table. For me, having a fence and a large table to support the work means more to me than anything else. Setting up featherboards and so forth is much easier on the table. I wouldn't want to run rail and stile bits with a hand held either.

For roundovers on speaker boxes, your use will probably be different than mine though. A hand held is the better way to go for something like that. I'll never be one to agree that a router is better for dados though. By the time I got my 1400 and rails set up exactly, I'd already be done using the tablesaw.

I have the 1400 and the 1010. I like the 1400, but I'm not blown away by it like many others here are. I don't care for the 1010 at all. I'm actually thinking about selling it.
 
If you are just starting out and have a limited budge, my recommendation is to get the 1400,  and add a router table later.  I never had a router table until completion of several large projects from hardwoods.  You can make a simple, inexpensive yet effective, easily stored router table from an old cabinet door like I did, or from a piece of 3/4" MDF or birch ply.  Simply cut a hole in the sheet panel and mount your router with countersunk screws.  You can make a very effective straight fence from a jointed piece of 2x4 stock, cutting a semi-circular relief in it for the router bit with a saw.  Size that relief to fit your dust collector hose and it will collect the chips very effectively.  Simply clamp the table cantilevered to your work bench with the router hanging outside of your bench.  This arrangement provides maximum access to the underside of the router to make adjustments, and since the router table is clamped to your bench, you can push the router upward against its plunge return springs without any problem.  I use a couple of C-clamps to secure my simple table to my workbench.  The shopmade router table fence is secured to the router table using a couple more C-clamps.  A simple upgrade is to secure one end of your fence to your router table with a through bolt that allows you to rotate the fence about the axis of the bolt to adjust the position of the fence relative to the bit, using a clamp to secure the other end of your shopmade fence.  (From 7/8" thick red oak I made >400 sq ft of T&G "ranch plank" flooring with all top edges beveled that way, without this upgrade.)   My approach to woodworking is read, ask others, experiment and to try to use what appears to make the most sense to me.  Sometimes it is easier (and safer) to move the wood relative to the tool (router table) and sometimes it is easier and safer to move the tool relative to the workpiece (handheld router with or without guides).  Experiment and find out what works best for you.  That is why Festool's TS 55 and TS 75 saws with guide rails excel at cutting sheet goods, and wherever it is better to move the saw rather than the wood.  I found rabbeting the back edges of the pieces od a pair of cabinets (to accept an inset panel) much faster using my router table than placing the guide rail or the workpiece relative to the guide rail and a stop for each cut.  When creating a custom molded edge on a table top, I may use 2 or more bits and an edge guide with a handheld router to get exactly what I want, and I can see what is occurring at the workpiece as I proceed.

Dave R.
 
Thanks Lou, Dave!

For the near future, I don't have the room for a proper table saw.. the best I could do would be one of those table-top varieties.  But it sounds like a pain to set up the handheld with the rail...  enough to convince me that it'll be worth getting a TS once I have a proper shop space to work with.  The contractor Sawstop should definitely be out by then, too :) 

That table suggestion sounds perfect - especially since I'd be able to use the plunge router .  It'd let me see how often I'd use the table as well, so I'd know if it would be worth investing in a standalone setup.  Easily stored is definitely a plus, too, since I need to break my shop down to about a 4x6 area when not in use.  That way I can make it a little bigger than I otherwise would have gone with.  Thanks for all the ideas! 
 
You should know that I worked 30 years without a proper table saw.  I relied exclusively on my Shopsmith for many years for that function, and later added a radial arm saw, which I found very useful for cross-cutting long stock.  Since I "graduated" to Festool's TS 55 with guide rails, I sold the radial arm saw.  I still have my original homemade portable router table made from an old cabinet door (3/4 " lumber core plywood) and that Craftsman router is mounted in it.  I bought a General hybrid table saw a couple of years ago, and added a router table in place of the left table extension.  A Freud 13A router is mounted in that table, with a bottom enclosure connected to my dust collector.  This setup saves some space and allows me to use the same JoinTech fence setup for both the router table and the table saw.  I have yet to fully explore the various joints that are allegedly possible with this equipment, which is very similar to that made by Incra.  I also a 1400 router which I prefer to use free hand and with guides rather than mounted to a table.  But I note there are two factory drilled and tapped 6mm holes in the base of the 1400 that can be accessed without removing the subbase.  These could be used to mount the 1400 inverted to a table as I have described.  Have fun and be safe!

Dave R.

Contractor saw by Sawstop is pictured and briefly discussed in page 22 of Nov/Dec 2007 issue of Fine Woodworking.  Targeted price US$1500.  Available early Spring 2008.
 
I made the rolltop desk shown in my avatar when I only had a $75 tabletop saw from Harbor Freight! It was a royal pain to set their poor excuse for a fence and I had to 'adjust' the fit of the poor excuse for a miter guage with paper from shopping bags, but I did finish the project (with all of my fingers intact).

I suggest you spend a little more than $75 on the tabletop variety. Get a good blade, too.

Charles
 
For smaller or narrow pieces I prefer to use the router table.  It is easier to hold a small or narrow piece of wood against the fence than to balance a router on the piece.  For larger or longer pieces I like to use a handheld router.  Because I have a rather cramped shop, most of my projects are smaller so I use the router table most of the time.  I usually use a handheld router for dadoes and rabbets.
Tom.

 
I make all my dadoes and rabbets with my OF 1400 and use the guide rail often with it.  Fast easy set up, accurate repeatable results.  No router table in my shop.  None anticipated.  If you are going to use a lot of big panel raising bits, a router table would be a safety issue.  There are other ways to get the same results, quickly and effectively though.

If you want to spend the money on it, it would get some use, but I don't see it as a must have.

Just my 2 cents - remember, I started out making all my furniture by hand - none of those noisy, tailess apprentices for me.  But then I discovered FesTools and... well it was love at first sight.
 
It is amazing to see how a talented guy like Clint can cover the waterfront with only portable tools and make incredible creations out of wood.  The more I read here the more I learn that there are at least two or three and often a multitude of ways to do any task in woodworking.  So you don't really "need" any one tool to the exclusion of others.  You can accomplish most router tasks with hand planes.  You can dado with a router or a tablesaw (or short trenches with the Kapex, if it really exists). 

I have the luxury of some space for my shop so I'm not totally overcrowded (but getting there).  The question for me is what is fastest, most convenient and  safest?  As I have used the TS55 more and more, I use the tablesaw less and less.  I even use the TS55 for jointing much of the time, so use a jointer less and less.

But when routing, I'm with Lou.  More often than not, I use the table.  It is easier, faster to set up, and I like working with a fence.  But some cuts are easier and faster (and safer) with a topside router.  Then I am awfully glad I have the 1400.

Dave R's idea about the table is a good one.  What you really don't need is a fancy router table.  A small sheet of plywood clamped to the edge of your MFT or workbench does nicely.  Gary Rogowski used one that way for a long time (don't know what he does currently).  Someone who did a video years ago (Michael Fortune maybe) used a sheet of plywood on top of a 55 gal drum with a little door cut out of the side of the barrel to get to the router to make adjustments.  A straight piece of hardwood anchored at one end of the table and pivoting for adjustment makes a great fence.  I've never tried table routing with the 1400 because I have a PC 3.5 hp 7518 with a jessem lift  -- it's got tremendous power and the lift makes it really easy to set up.  I wouldnt buy a 1400 as a table router because you can do better cheaper and its features get lost underneath.  But it makes great sense to use the 1400 as Dave suggests and have the best of both worlds.

 
Dave - Thank you for the nice words!

I agree with you that there are indeed many approaches to solving woodworking problems.  And what works for me, or you or any one individual, may not work nearly as well for someone else.  That is one of the joys of doing this thing we call woodworking - and this list - to seek out new ways and new perspectives for working with wood.  It is remarkably enjoyable.
 
I recently built a RT and glad I did.  It's a Jointech version with their fence set up.  It was a good learning project for me, didn't cost about maybe $100 for the materials, turned out pretty nice giving me some extra storage.  I'll post some pics this weekend.  I also have the 1400 with the guiderail set up.  My dad wants me to build him a freestanding pantry cabinet and I'm planning on using the 1400 to rabbet the sides and dado the bottom shelf.  Very fast and effective.  I'm also going to start replacing all the cabinet doors in our kitchen (about 40) and having the router table to do the rail, stile, coping and raised panel work will help tremendously.  I wouldn't get rid of either set up as they both have their respective place. 
 
>>>The more I read here the more I learn that there are at least two or three and often a multitude of ways to do any task in woodworking.
 
Man you guys have it all wrong. Keep in mind that this comes from someone that used to be in charge of over 100 employees... There's only one way to do things. MY WAY! Anything else is wrong and I don't want to hear about it...

Just kidding of course :)
 
For my usage: 
OF1400 - Dados, rabbets, and LR32 stuff
RT - everything else.  The OF1400 can't spin big panel raising bits.  You're much more likely to have consistently good, fast results using a table to do things like edge treatments.  There's too much chance for the handheld router to tip/wobble while cruising down the wood.  If I had to give up either my OF1400 or my homemade RT with a PC7518, I'd have to go with the OF1400.  However, I'd be screwed when it came to drilling hinge cups and shelf pins (I don't have a drill press).

 
My answer would depend on how you build and what materials you use for "typical furniture making....".  For rail, stile and panel work the router table is the fast, easy, accurate and safe way to do the tongue and grove or profile while the guided rail router is the fast, easy, accurate and safe way to do sliding dovetail slots, dados and groves.  If you are mirroring dovetail slots or dados on the inside faces of a chest there simply is no accurate alternative to guided rail routing both pieces simultaneously while they are held firmly together front edge to front edge on a flat reference surface.  A hand held router with two edge guides is the hot ticket for machining inlay groves in edges.  For open field inlay work the hand held router with the MFS system and a few guide bushings is hard to beat.  For things like chamfering edges and beading work the router table is fast and safe.  For drawer construction it is a matter of preference and size of drawer whether it is easier/faster to do the dovetails on a router table jig like a Gifkin or an incrementally postional fence system like Incra/Jointech or whether to cut them on a holding jig like the VS600 with a hand held router.  Bottom line, I don't see the RT vs hand held as a logical choice since they both are important for working safely and efficiently.  Buy a hulking big ugly fixed base router to mount under a table.  Hook it to a lift that allows bit change from above the table and surround it with a heavy housing to cut the noise and direct dust to a dust port hooked to a dust collector.  When it craps out throw it away and get anouther big ugly to replace it.  Don't settle for anything less than a Festool guided rail router and Festool dust extractor for all the hand held work.  Build a horizontal router jig to fit on the side of a MFT to mount your Festool router to safely cut male sliding dovetails or tongues on the edges of large pieces.  Now you are equiped to take on any size project whether from solid woods or man made materials.  My take, anyway.

Jerry

cparson said:
Didn't want to hijack the first-festool thread, and this seemed off-topic enough to warrant a separate thread ???  so here goes...

Dave Rudy said:
Agreed.  For on top routing, this one is out of the ballpark.  All Festools are good, some are just over the top.  The 1400 is the latter.  Doesn't make sense to use it in a table, though, for a number of reasons.  You can get a bigger motor cheaper and won't miss the 1400 features if it's buried underneath the table.
Click to expand...

Anyways, for typical furniture making - cabinets, coffee tables, bookshelves, that sort of thing - what do people tend to use more (or, couldn't get by without) - the 1400 or a router table?

I was going to pick up the 1400 soon, mostly just to do roundovers on the bases of speaker stands, figuring it would also be the most flexible way to go for dados(dadoes?  how do you pluralize imaginary words? ;D)/rebates/etc.  My inexperienced guess is that I should be able to use the 1400 for just about everything except door panels... which I can get along without for now.  But if I'd be better served with a table, I could forego the festool for now  :'(
Click to expand...
 
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