20 20 and or other rendering programs

[rnt80]

Except for a couple of projects a few years ago that I did with Sketch up all of my drawings for jobs have been done by hand.  I don't know if I've ever lost a bid because of that but no one has ever mentioned my lack of computer based renderings.  I'm at the point though where I would like to start producing them for bids but I don't want to go back to sketch up.  Does anyone use 20 20 or other rendering programs?  I'm wondering about cost, learning curve, how beneficial it is for your customers, etc.

 

[Bob Gerritsen]

Well, I can't give any user experience on rendering, not yet anyway. However, as I'm in the same boat, checking out different options and such, I came across an old Google videon regarding Sketchup. There, one of the developers actually explained how they've design Sketchup specifically without rendering in mind. His point was that with rendering you get to such a realistic level that the client will expect exactly what you will present on screen. Doesn't seem like a bad thing at first except that when it comes to color accuracy and wood grains and all these tricky details there is a real risk of disappointment.
Showing a sketchy Sketchup drawing helps you tackle many choices without claiming 100% realism. I don't know yet exactly what I think of this but I think he has a point at least to a certain level. I'm a bit less interested in getting rendering going quickly now as it turns out, I'm seeing the merits of my sketchy presentations now.

Anyway, this isn't answering any of your questions... 

 

[ccmviking]

Russell,

    We have both 20-20 V10 and Cabinet Vision V8.   Both programs do a great job of rendering your project and can be an impressive sales tool.  We specialize in Kitchen and Bath remodeling where if I'm not mistaken you do mainly custom built in type work.   Our jobs can run from $25,000 to upwards of $100,000 so the whole presentation is very important, and when people are getting multiple bids on such a large project the presentation can help us to be the ones winning the contract.   We carry many cabinetry lines for retail sales and 20-20 is one of 3 or so programs that most manufacturers provide catalog support for (you should also take a look at chief architect).  So we primarily use 20-20 to design kitchen and bath projects in total where we are going to be purchasing cabinetry from one of our manufacturers.  We use Cabinet Vision for more one off and custom stuff where I'm going to be the one building it.  From CV I get all the information I need for costing out the project, ordering materials and cutting everything to size to assemble (sheet optimization, etc).  I've got probably 4x the amount of money in CV compared to 20-20 and probably use it less than 5% of the time, but I sure wouldn't want to build stuff without it.  I'm not sure how you can work justifications around it but for your type of projects you'd need Cabinet Vision Ultimate to make the necessary casework changes.  Let me know if you have any specific questions about either program or would like to see some renderings.

Chris...      

 

[kmdwoodwork]

If you are not a computer guy do yourself a favor and find a designer that is willing to work with your hand drawn sketches. I looked into programs a couple of years ago and between cost and learning curve i decided it was not for me.

The designer that i use can do them in a tenth of the time it would take me and much nicer than i ever could.

Since i started offering this service i have only had 3 clients who wanted it done, i charge above what i normally charge for design which makes most people stick with my pen and paper drawings. Also i never do drawings for bids i only do them after i have a signed proposal.

 

[Max Neu]

I use KCDW,it is one of my best tools.I can quickly draw a job to impress the customer and give me an edge for getting the job.It is also great for producing cut lists for all of your cabinet parts,doors,and drawer boxes.I have mine set up to work with my Omga cutoff saw,so i can just plug in a flash drive from my computer to my saw and automate the cutting.The nice thing about KCDW is you can add capabilities as you progress.I started out just using it to draw renderings for customers,then added other features as time went on.I chose KCDW because it is very user friendly,and has a pretty low learning curve.

 

[rnt80]

Thanks for the feedback guys.  I looked at KCDW and Cabinet Vision since I am not familiar with either one.  I certainly want a program that will allow me to do both elevations (what my drawings consist of now) and 3D renderings.  The only thing I outsource at this point is moulding so I make all my boxes, drawers, and doors.  At some point I may outsource my doors/drawer fronts so having the ability to choose from a catalog would be helpful in the future.
Chris, how steep is the learning curve for CV?  Do they offer versions that have stock moldings, basic door profiles, etc.?  I saw that KCDW offered those features but a quick look didn't lead to any information about the ability to do simple elevations.

 

[Jonhilgen]

I do installs for a designer (master kitchen designer MKBD) and he mainly (only) uses CAD.  The drawings are more professional looking and it certainly helps as a sales tool.  It just looks a little more polished than Sketchup.  I use Sketchup personally, and I do feel that sometimes it looks a little bush-league compared to CAD.

There is a certain benefit to hand drawings though.  It shows the client that you have spent serious time working on it, and it imparts a certain warmth that computer programs can't.  One shop (a quite successful and high-end one) I used to work for many moons ago only odd hand drawings for that very reason.  The personal touch from a hand drawing is hard to match.

I have just become aware of another program called Mozaik (a program used with/for cnc) and from what I understand it is compatible with Sketchup.  You can export drawings from this program into Sketchup.  

Jon

Edited for spelling...

 

[chrisrosenb]

I have been using Cabinet Vision for about 14 years. I does have a big learning curve, but once you learn it & it is setup to the way you build things, you can design & build about anything from it. That includes elevations, renderings & cutlists.
Cabinet Vision does cost a chunk of money, but I have never regretted buying it. I would not want to go back to working without it.

 

[Fesnewb]

There are rendering programs that plug into sketchup such as VRAY, Indigo and Thea amongst others. Some are free and less capable some are in the 3-800 dollar range. If you can use sketchup you can get reasonable results out of these plugins and with experience, amazing results.

I was amazed when I saw what a simple cartoony sketchup furnished room model looked like after a pass through the renderer.

Do a google image search for sketcup Vray and the same on YouTube

 

[Claimdude]

I use Sketchlist 3D Pro. It will produce repeatable 3D PDFs of your drawings, elevations, parts lists and so forth. Does not have much in common with other CAD programs. Check it out at sketchlist.com .

Jack

PS I think 3D Pro can be had for $100 for a short time (just went through a major upgrade). The regular price is $500.

 

[ccmviking]

Chris, how steep is the learning curve for CV?  Do they offer versions that have stock moldings, basic door profiles, etc.?  I saw that KCDW offered those features but a quick look didn't lead to any information about the ability to do simple elevations.

Russell,

   CV isn't as much of a learning curve as a lot of other software out there because it is designed very intuitively.  You do have to spend a lot of time setting everything up to get the exact output you desire but most of the setup is wizard driven with pictures showing you what changes you are making.  So you set up every aspect of how YOU want to build a box with all dado's, nailer size and locations, how a partition attaches to the deck, back, face frame, etc.   You setup all reveals you want to door/drawer, what size extended stile you want against a wall, etc.   Once you've made any of these changes from program default you can just set cabinets, create cut lists and get busy in the shop.  You can print labels to put on each piece if it's a big job to help keep track of everything (the label will even have a picture showing you where you need to edge band)  

    There are a lot of stock moldings and there is also a molding editor so that you can use the simple included cad tools to change the molding or make your own.  Doors are the same way.   Many profiles included but you can design your own as well.  The program can provide you with cut lists to make your own doors, drawers, etc. or you can print out the sizes and qty's to send off to have them made.  Currently the only direct manufacturer that has their catalog built for the software is Decorative Specialties.  You can send the order from the software and they also will finish them.  So if you were building frame-less you can build the boxes and then just click the doors into place.  

    So when you decide to purchase software like this it's usually based on whet you might like to do in the future.  There are 3 levels (essential, advanced, ultimate) that offer varying capability and then there are add on modules that add specific functionality to that product.  If you don't have a CNC now but might have one later you can add the CNC output at that time rather than pay for it now.  The add on that I just had to have was panel optimization.  I was so frustrated trying to layout parts to cut on 12 sheets of material and keeping in mind grain orientation.  That can drive you mad.   This just does it all for you.  So the reason you  purchase software like this is that it grows with you.  Has been around since 5.25" floppy days and has over 25,000 users.  Chances are good that they'll still be improving on it for decades to come.  I didn't want to learn how to use 10 different pieces of software and import this data from here to there, etc. and then to find out there's a small mistake and I have to redo all that shuffling to make a small correction.  

    Chris...

 

[rnt80]

As luck would have it the current job I'm bidding on, a home office in the $10-15K range, the customer is requesting 3D drawings with color/texture.  I told him that I could outsource it but would have to pass the cost onto to him, a suggestion that he balked at.  He asked that I just give him the dimensions so that he could draw it up in Sketchup.  I don't charge for my design time/drawings and this is the first time I've had someone request renderings after I've given them my hand drawn drawings.  Any suggestions?

 

[NYC Tiny Shop]

Russell, with this new era of computer technology constantly advancing, we may find these kind of requests occurring with increasing frequency.  Listen, you seem like a smart enough guy.  From the youtube tutorial videos, I learned Sketchup well enough in two days to design two dressers and two storage benches. This weekend, I start on a TV console.  Just do your best to learn it.  It is not too hard, it's free, so what do you have to lose?
If this customer doesn't have enough imagination to visualize your ideas from your drawing, then let him draw it in Sketchup.  The problem for him is that the Sketchup drawing will still not look anything like the final product.
I love those customers who just say, "can you make me a ....to go there?" ...and that's it!

 

[rnt80]

I've used Sketchup in the past so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me.  I certainly would need to go back and watch some tutorials though.  I simply don't have one or two days to dedicate to doing additional drawings, my docket is too full.  Any ideas how much outsourcing this kind of stuff would cost?

 

[Oldwood]

Hi,

e Cabinets is also an option for this. It is free and does rendered drawings cut lists etc. It does have a learning curve but has a good user forum and help files. Here is a elevation of a job we did produced in e Cabinets. The program will output to a Thermwood or Shopbot router or you can choose strait-line nesting if you are using a saw to cut your parts and it will give you a cut list for all parts required. You can also do dimensioned drawings if required.

HTH
Gerry

 

[tiralie]

I don't charge for my design time/drawings and this is the first time I've had someone request renderings after I've given them my hand drawn drawings.

In future, indicate in your quote that you either charge for your drawing/design time or that they can save money by going with the pencil sketches. Giving clients the option usually gives them the opportunity to say thanks but no thanks. Because I believe design is my value add, I include a design fee in my quote. It's usually a percentage of the overall fee.

Generally speaking, you can tell when you meet with a client whether they need to have a 3D rendering with all the textures etc. or not. You can straight out ask them.

...the customer is requesting 3D drawings with color/texture

The above comment by the client indicates some insecurity or missed expectations. Part of the sales process is making the customer comfortable with their decision to hire you. When a client asks for this specifically, I always feel they either are having some difficulty visualizing the finished project and need help to understand how it fits in the space or someone has told them that they should have a 3D drawing. In any case, it means they still have questions, issues that are unresolved and it's a signal to you to resolve those issues before you start the project.  A 3D drawing is a tool to open the discussion to resolve the issue.

He asked that I just give him the dimensions so that he could draw it up in Sketchup.

Because I want the client to be a collaborator vs. a partner, I wouldn't really want them to be doing a Sketchup drawing for me. I feel that as a client, being to close to the project by doing the drawings will only create problems such as indecision and multiple changes that they feel they are untitled to vs. having to pay for.

I told him that I could outsource it but would have to pass the cost onto to him, a suggestion that he balked at. Any suggestions?

See if you can find an architecture student or design student that wants to earn some money. You will drive yourself nuts (steep learning curve) if you try to do this particular drawing in Sketchup with color/textures with all the other work you have.

It will take some time to master Sketchup, but it's not impossible and the free YouTube videos etc make it a very accessible and usable 3D application. With a laptop and a good mouse you can probably learn a lot in your "down" time with the kids watching TV etc. Taking a previous project and rendering it in Sketchup will probably help you to learn it faster. Almost every client except the very discerning will be very pleased with Sketchup 3D presentations.

I believe Sketchup and some good computer hardware can do most of what you would need it for some of your custom work like the gun cases etc., my require a more photo realistic approach.  Sketchup really bogs down on a regular workstation when you add too much photo realism.
Programs such as Rhino3D/Rhinoceros or Top Solid wood can give you but the investment in computer hardware, education is not trivial so the fee needs to justify the cost.

 

[BUTTER]

As luck would have it the current job I'm bidding on, a home office in the $10-15K range, the customer is requesting 3D drawings with color/texture.  I told him that I could outsource it but would have to pass the cost onto to him, a suggestion that he balked at.  He asked that I just give him the dimensions so that he could draw it up in Sketchup.  I don't charge for my design time/drawings and this is the first time I've had someone request renderings after I've given them my hand drawn drawings.  Any suggestions?

Since you aren't charging him for your design time/drawings, and you are still bidding it, you are putting yourself at a serious disadvantage if you give this potential client your design dimensions.  This person can then take your work and shop it around to someone else.  If he/she has the skill to draw it in Sketchup, then they can make their own measurements (and crib your sketch if they want to.)

I am working on a 19K built-in unit right now.  The client had a couple of example pictures and a description of what they wanted. I was fairly sure to get the job, so I made a simple set of 2D drawings with overall dimensions for the client (took a few hours) to both give them a visual reference and so that I could estimate my costs.
Only once they gave me a 10% deposit did I give them a more specific set of dimensioned drawings.  Once THOSE were approved, then I took a second deposit and began construction.

Drawing your projects is as much an act of building them as is using a saw and screws.
Don't lower the value of your skills/talents by giving away such an important part of your work.

 

[Max Neu]

If you are interested in KCDW,they will give you a free trial version.I used their trial version to draw a whole kitchen before I bought the program.I was impressed how easy it was to use,that's what made the sale for me.

 

[kmdwoodwork]

I've used Sketchup in the past so it's not entirely unfamiliar to me.  I certainly would need to go back and watch some tutorials though.  I simply don't have one or two days to dedicate to doing additional drawings, my docket is too full.  Any ideas how much outsourcing this kind of stuff would cost?

I don't know the labor rates in your area but the interior designer that i use charges by the hour and just taking a guess based on the price of your job i would say that it would cost me between 2 and 3 hundred to get that done.

I have to agree with Tim and Joseph that you need to charge for your design work and not hand over anything but a 5 minute sketch before you at least have a deposit. Look at it this way, if they called an architect or interior designer they would be paying for their design expertise so why should they not be paying you. You may not have any fancy certificates but it sounds like you have been designing your own work for a while so you should charge for your expertise.

 

[WPeters]

I have just become aware of another program called Mozaik (a program used with/for cnc) and from what I understand it is compatible with Sketchup.  You can export drawings from this program into Sketchup.  

Sorry to revive an old thead here, but have any of you used Mozaik?  I did a year ago and was pretty impressed www.mozaiksoftware.com  CV is like a bad habit though and I drifted back into using that full time.  I hope to switch to Mozaik in the next year and was wondering if any of you have opinions on it.

Thanks