220V & 240V what's the difference ? ? building a DC system

[Slappy]

That taking a vertically designed blower motor then placing it in a horizontal position is one of the untested issues that I ruled out my intentions of going with building the rig myself outta that Grizzly blower/motor.
that   was something that until I had read the Pentz site wasn't even considered by me to be a problem that the Grizzly's blower bearings were not designed to placed horizontally but now that I've read it. It  now make sense . As the horizontally designed blowers have  bearings that are made to take the downward weight load & not move . where the vertical blowers that downward weight load on the bearings  is not even a consideration in bearing design as centrifugal forces keep the bearing floating on it's shaft .
I should have realized that myself as I've build many High power H2O cooled Gamer PC's for clients & learned the hard way to not place a cooling fan that that was only designed to run vertically & i placed it in a horizontal position on the radiators  ( the Vertical PC fans are a much lower cost item  ) I had the vertical fans fail quite quickly on rad's that where on top of the machine horizontally , by fail their bearings started to squeal .

the above is what I had meant by a risk factor that I realized I could not accept

When cobbling together 2 different systems , one has to look at that using a item in a different aspect than it was designed for your then wading into uncharted waters .
In the past I've rigged up things that worked at 1st but they later failed badly due to using a item outside of it's intended design . In the long run that had cost more $$ than just buying a device that was designed to do what I wanted .    
The old saying  "spending a dollar to save a dime" comes to mind  [blink]
 

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I think this might be a topic worth a little more investigation, because I don't recall ever seeing general purpose induction motors rated specifically for horizontal versus vertical mounting. I'm not saying there may not be a difference, but I have just never noticed it as a typical specification.

I could see a motor designed for a high axial load to have thrust bearings, but I don't think it is very common in a general purpose motor. Standard roller bearings will take a significant axial load. Axial bearings would be the conical type like you would see in your automotive axles. You just don't normally see that type of bearing in a general motor.

ClearVue lists that their cyclone contains a Leeson 5 hp motor, but doesn't list model number or specifications. I would be curious to know which model they are actually supplying, and whether or not is was in fact vertically rated. I could not find any vertically rated motors on the Leeson website for blower motors.

 

[greg mann]

I think this might be a topic worth a little more investigation, because I don't recall ever seeing general purpose induction motors rated specifically for horizontal versus vertical mounting. I'm not saying there may not be a difference, but I have just never noticed it as a typical specification.

I could see a motor designed for a high axial load to have thrust bearings, but I don't think it is very common in a general purpose motor. Standard roller bearings will take a significant axial load. Axial bearings would be the conical type like you would see in your automotive axles. You just don't normally see that type of bearing in a general motor.

ClearVue lists that their cyclone contains a Leeson 5 hp motor, but doesn't list model number or specifications. I would be curious to know which model they are actually supplying, and whether or not is was in fact vertically rated. I could not find any vertically rated motors on the Leeson website for blower motors.

I was hoping you might weigh-in on this, Rick. Do you think my perception regarding negative pressure on the blade side of the impeller being somewhat akin to increased thrust making any sense or am I just being overly optimistic? I too, have looked for thrust load callouts on various electric motor data charts without seeing much that really addresses thrust loads as a separate category. I am banking on the notion there is enough thrust load capability present. The actual impeller is not particularly heavy and the motor surely should support the weight of the armature but time will tell. Stay tuned.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

It is actually a little beyond my engineering level, but I am not sure how much of the force of the negative pressure is imparted on the impeller versus the ducting around it. The more I think about it, the more I suspect it does not pose any additional (or appreciable) axial load to the impeller. As far as the impeller is concerned, all it is doing is moving air from its center to the perimeter (in to out 2-dimensionally). It is only the existence of the ducting that causes inflow in the axial direction. Therefore, it is likely that only the ducting is experiencing any forces resulting from the axial flow.

If that is the case, then the only appreciable axial forces acting on the motor bearings are the weight of the rotor and the weight of the impeller.

Even though it is a topic that Bill brought up on his website, I would be kind of surprised to learn that ClearVue, or any other retail manufacturer, is using vertically rated motors. That's why I was hoping that someone who owned one would provide a motor nameplate model number.

Edit: By the way, this is the complete opposite of a propeller, where the forces acting upon that propeller are almost entirely axial. It is designed to move air front-to-back, while an impeller is designed to move air in-to-out radially.

 

[greg mann]

It is actually a little beyond my engineering level, but I am not sure how much of the force of the negative pressure is imparted on the impeller versus the ducting around it. The more I think about it, the more I suspect it does not pose any additional (or appreciable) axial load to the impeller. As far as the impeller is concerned, all it is doing is moving air from its center to the perimeter (in to out 2-dimensionally). It is only the existence of the ducting that causes inflow in the axial direction. Therefore, it is likely that only the ducting is experiencing any forces resulting from the axial flow.

If that is the case, then the only appreciable axial forces acting on the motor bearings are the weight of the rotor and the weight of the impeller.

Even though it is a topic that Bill brought up on his website, I would be kind of surprised to learn that ClearVue, or any other retail manufacturer, is using vertically rated motors. That's why I was hoping that someone who owned one would provide a motor nameplate model number.

I wasn't too concerned about the negative pressure being imparted on the impeller as much as I was it being imparted BY the impeller ON the motor bearings. It seems most of these motors, almost all for that matter, just list ball bearings. Of course the amount of thrust a ball bearing set can handle is based on the design of the races, and nobody is giving that info out, unless one can dig into a specific brand's website more deeply than I care. Your observations do make me feel more confident that I have not done anything the motor should not handle.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I wasn't too concerned about the negative pressure being imparted on the impeller as much as I was it being imparted BY the impeller ON the motor bearings.

They are one-and-the-same force. What ever force is applied to the impeller is also applied to the motor. Any force that pulls on the impeller also pulls on the motor.

 

[Slappy]

I was hoping that someone who owned one would provide a motor nameplate model number

I'm ordering the CV1800 this week , I need to call them about the electrical hook-up 1st .
when it gets here I'll pass along the data plate details plus a Pix of the motor & the shaft bearing area
if I had a video recorder I'd do a un-boxing vid  but I just might do a series of un-boxing pix .

 

[greg mann]

I wasn't too concerned about the negative pressure being imparted on the impeller as much as I was it being imparted BY the impeller ON the motor bearings.

They are one-and-the-same force. What ever force is applied to the impeller is also applied to the motor. Any force that pulls on the impeller also pulls on the motor.

That part I understood. I just wondered how that might be calculated as a force, or even if it was significant as a 'pulling' force on the motor shaft and subsequently the bearings as thrust, and how that might compare to the actual weight of the impeller and motor armature. When I think it through, with the motor hung vertically, whatever force there may be will be cumulative. The weight of the moving parts plus the effect of any negative pressure on the inlet side.

 

[Rick Christopherson]

I'm ordering the CV1800 this week , I need to call them about the electrical hook-up 1st .

When you call them for the electrical, just ask them what the motor model number is. You don't have to tell them why you are asking.

BTW, as for the electrical, the Leeson motor is rated at 20.8 FLA (Full Load Amps), so it requires a 30-amp circuit with #10 wire. If you are going to put a plug on it, use a NEMA 6-30 or L6-30 (which is the twist lock version).

============================================================
With that out of the way, let's talk about this massively huge dust collector you are about to buy. Based on what you've told me about your workshop and the tools you have and don't have, I would assume it is a typical sized home shop in the ballpark of a garage or half-garage.

The CV1800 is rated at 1440 CFM, and is equipped with a 6" inlet. So it stands to reason that the ducting you are planning to run in your shop will be 6" or less.

1440 CFM through a 6" duct will result in an air speed of 7344 ft/min. Or to make it easier for you to visualize.......83.1 MPH !!!!

Just to give you a better handle on this, here are numbers for other duct sizes at 1440 CFM:
12" = 1836 ft/min = 20.8 mph
10" = 2644 ft/min = 30.0 mph
8" = 4131 ft/min = 47 mph
6" = 7344 ft/min = 83.1 mph
4" = 16,524 ft/min = 187.5 mph

To better put these numbers into real life perspective, here is something you can do on your own. Go find a cardboard tube, like a large Christmas wrapping paper tube, or even larger. Fill the bottom of the tube from end-to-end with about 1-inch of sawdust. Now get in the car and drive down the road at 47 mph and point the tube into the wind for a couple of seconds. So does the tube empty out, or does the dust just lay there?

Keep in mind that this 1-inch of dust constitutes a blockage, and not normal dust flow through the tube. So now you could drop down to about 20 or 30 mph and take a handful of dust and pour it into the end of the tube while the tube is facing the wind. Does the dust flow through the tube, or does it settle out and land on the bottom? (and that's at only 20 or 30 mph.)

The reason why I chose the 47 mph (as opposed to the 83.1 mph) is because even this high speed is what Bill suggests should be your target air speed for dust collection ducting. So even if you are abiding by Bill's recommendation of 4000 ft/min, ClearVue is selling you a cyclone that will produce a speed of 83.1 mph by way of its required 6" inlet tube. In reality, that cyclone should have a 10" or 12" inlet.

Unless you can teach your ductwork to whistle a happy tune, the whistling sound of the air flow is going to drive you insane.  [big grin] [big grin]

 

[Slappy]

it's 2 car garage but one that uses that wide single door,  21' x 21' floor space
8 '  ceiling to the bottom of open 8" rafters  with a attic above  meaning I can place part of it up in the attic if needed .
( placing the motor between the rafters & open up that attic floor area for the motor heat to escape, the attic floor is 2 x 8s  )
the attic is not used for anything
here are some  pantries & a closet  that are going to be torn out to free up floor space

I plans on have me getting  jointer, but 1st i'm getting a table saw that Sawstop pcs is what I want  

router table being made now , standing  drillpress ,miter saw, 6' x 32" maple workbench already there  , 12" planer

the cyclone would either be enclosed & outside vented  or set outside the shop , I do understand it is loud , I been around bigger ones

ducting ( ATM ) plans are 8" main runs & 6" drops

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Oh my. It isn't very often where you'll catch me speechless.

About all I can say is that the Clearvue system is even way larger than my shop needs. I have a 15" planer, 8" jointer, 3hp tablesaw, wide belt sander, horizontal edge sander, 18" bandsaw, radial arm saw, and 3 hp shaper. (Kapex has its own dedicated Festool Mini, and should NOT be connected to a full-size dust collector due to the lack of static pressure).

 

[PaulMarcel]

Once my neighbor looked at my DC (was just the modded HF DC) and said "wow, bet that could suck the butthole off a cat".  [blink]  Pretty sure mine couldn't, but that ClearVue has a shot at it!  Yes, I found it an odd performance benchmark...

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Just so you know Paul-Marcel, you have officially made his "list".

 

[Slappy]

this is what TOO much suction has benefits for :



I think it would work on Kapex  don't you ?  that's why for of the Huge duct @ all the stations

 

[dicktill]

About all I can say is that the Clearvue system is even way larger than my shop needs. I have a 15" planer, 8" jointer, 3hp tablesaw, wide belt sander, horizontal edge sander, 18" bandsaw, radial arm saw, and 3 hp shaper. (Kapex has its own dedicated Festool Mini, and should NOT be connected to a full-size dust collector due to the lack of static pressure).

Hi Rick,

If the Clearview CV1800 is an overkill for the small home hobby shop, what would you recommend? I am mostly working with Festool stuff. (Although as an aside, I just bought a Ridgid oscillating belt/spindle sander, and OMG what a mess, even when hooked to a CT 26! Too bad Festool doesn't have something like it available.) I do have a DeWalt 735 planer and an Incra router table with a Porter-Cable 7518 motor. I rarely use my PC table saw (and hope to get rid of it), but it sure makes a mess when I do use it. I want to have a serious dust hood over/around my Kapex, as well as a downdraft sanding table. The shop is in my basement-garage, and I want to prevent the fine dust that Bill Pentz discusses at length (and that Peter Parfitt has also discussed) from both the shop and the house.

Thanks for your knowledgeable comments, Dick

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Hi Dick,
I don't want to put myself forward as any sort of expert on dust collection. It is easy to pick out faults, but quite another to recommend a system.

With that being said, you will want to examine your worst case situation. That will either be a tablesaw (although I hear SawStop has a good internal design) or a downdraft table. The difficulty with a tablesaw is that the particulate already has a high velocity, and your dust collection system needs to be able to change the velocity of the debris in a different direction. The difficulty with a downdraft table is that the opening is so large that the air speed is going to be very low. Granted, with fine dust that is not already moving, it doesn't take much air speed to capture it.

You need to start your design process at the point of dust generation. Throwing large amounts of horsepower into the blower is simply compensation for the deficiencies along the way. I don't know what size you need, because it all depends on the rest of the design and how well it utilizes the available power.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Hi Dick,
I don't want to put myself forward as any sort of expert on dust collection. It is easy to pick out faults, but quite another to recommend a system.

With that being said, you will want to examine your worst case situation. That will either be a tablesaw (although I hear SawStop has a good internal design) or a downdraft table. The difficulty with a tablesaw is that the particulate already has a high velocity, and your dust collection system needs to be able to change the velocity of the debris in a different direction. The difficulty with a downdraft table is that the opening is so large that the air speed is going to be very low. Granted, with fine dust that is not already moving, it doesn't take much air speed to capture it.

You need to start your design process at the point of dust generation. Throwing large amounts of horsepower into the blower is simply compensation for the deficiencies along the way. I don't know what size you need, because it all depends on the rest of the design and how well it utilizes the available power.

Every "dust generation" situation is different. The TS 75 makes about as much dust traveling at about the same velocity as a table saw or chop saw but dust management is integral to the tool's design and very little escapes when properly used. Think about how it is managed in that tool and you can improve the management of dust created by other tools.

Think about make-up air too. For example, you have drilled a hole partway into a board and the bottom of the hole is covered in debris. You get much better results vacuuming out the debris if the the hose doesn't completely cover the hole because you need the make-up air to enter the hole and push the debris into the hose.  (An exception is if the hole is drilled into red oak, ash, or other porous material than can allow make-up air to pass through into the hole.)

There isn't any actual effective suction. If there isn't air flow the debris doesn't move. When you use a "vacuum cleaner" you're just directing the ambient air through the vac's impeller/blower in a way that pushes debris into the hose.

An example of the management of make-up air is the dust collection adapter on my Ridgid 13" lunch box style planer. There is a round port for attachment of a hose on the side/rear of the planer, 90 degrees from the direction of the chips being thrown off the cutter head. On the opposite side of the adapter is a small hole that allows make-up air to enter which creates a current of air moving directly towards the collection hose. That air current helps re-direct the chips toward the hose. It seems unlikely that a small hole could make any difference but it does.

Air is much more substantial than it seems. I met a an engineer who worked for a munitions manufacturer. They had a contract to increase the range and accuracy of a US Navy cannon. They knew a longer barrel would improve accuracy but they weren't getting the velocity they needed to improve the range. Increasing the charge didn't make much difference. They realized that the static air in the cannon barrel was holding back the projectile. The surprisingly simple solution was to drill a 1/4" hole through the barrel about 2/3rds of the way up.

So, design a dust management system for each dust generator and you can get by with one good vac. Or, install a system capable of changing the air in the shot every three minutes and don't worry about it.