32 mm system help

[mastercabman]

Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Norse

Most are drilled at 37mm from the edge.

 

[beerburper]

Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Norse

Most are drilled at 37mm from the edge.

Yes, that was what I also thought after reading all this brilliant information on this forum, but after checking my IKEA cabinets I´m a bit confused. But of course, I can just buy a set of IKEA hinges and drawer sets and try on a scrap board  

 

[John Stevens]

Had a look at a IKEA cabinet in my kitchen, and noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

I think so.  I have IKEA kitchen cabs, and although the hinges are made by Blum, they have base plates so they can mount in the holes that are drilled 27mm from the edge.

Regards,

John

 

[ccarrolladams]

There are many applications of the LR-32 System. A whole lot of books are available on this topic.

Where nearly everyone agrees is that holes for adjustable shelf pins are drilled on 32mm centers (or centres) mostly because way back when, using available gears, that was as close as drill bits could be located on line boring machines. So, by logical extension, cabinet heights were in multiples of 32mm. Originally and for years after, LR-32 was an accepted standard to make manufacturing cabinets more efficient.

If all the hobby or custom cabinet maker is using are adjustable shelf holes the set-back from the open front edge and in from the back can be any thing you want. There is much to be said for having the front holes fairly close to the edge, so if the first object placed on the shelf is heavy, the shelf will not tip forward. By the same token the rear holes should be close enough to the back that when a load is at the rear of the shelf (a typical situation) the front of the shelf will not tilt upward. In cases such as book shelves with shelves not more than 12" (300mm) the popular 37mm set-back works well.

Things get tricky with deeper cabinets, such as in kitchens. To better support the middle of the shelf the tendency is to increase the set-back, to reduce the span between shelf pins.

It has been noted that IKEA uses a 27mm front offset. That works with the hinges and drawer slides used by IKEA.

The important thing is to read and understand the instructions for the brand of hardware you are using. I have been designing and building LR-32 cabinets for 60 years. Probably the majority have used a 37mm front setback. Still, I have to be careful, when working with unfamiliar hardware, to use the setback specified by the manufacturer.

Placement of the rear holes is a function also of the design of the slides. Almost always the spacing is a multiple of 32mm, but not always. Clearly it is convenient to have all the rear holes the same set-in from the back. Just do your best to avoid spacing the holes so wide the shelves sag or having the rear hole set-in excessively so shelves tip.

The Festool LR-32 guide rails are marvelous. Festool provides linear stops to establish standard vertical position.

Personally I use the top of base cabinets and the bottom of uppers as the vertical reference since those ends are not scribed. Often the first holes are 80mm from the reference. I usually skip that hole because my clients find it pointless to have a shelf so close to the top or bottom.

 

[FestoolMike]

Truth is this is a more complicated question than if might first appear.  The 32mm system is designed to have a system approach to efficiently making a wide array cabinets sizes with a euro style hardware in a production setting.  Of course you know that.  The important part of the system is in bold above.  If you are asking about the very basics of this system that may indicate you don't really need figure the system beyond the very basics.  For someone that doesn't have a decent understanding of cabinet construction with euro hardware the 32mm system may confusing, this is especially true when talking about drawers.    

You could be better served not to focus understanding the all details at first but rather try to grasp the basic concepts.  that said here is a good place to start.
Dave Lers' 32mm Cabinetmaking.
       
   

Brice (or anyone for that matter),

I have reviewed the information on Dave's site and I was wondering if you might be able to help me understand something.  I am trying out this method for the first time so be gentle.

Anyway, I am building a smaller version of the cabs that Guido detailed in the "Chaos" videos.  As such, I am using common partitions for the cabinets and half overlay hinges.  I am guessing that I would like to see a 3 mm reveal or gap around the "inner" door panels and the drawers.  I don't understand how I need to reduce the dimensions by to achieve the look you see in the Chaos videos.  The clear opening of the upper cabinet section is 1171.5 x 427 mm.

I know that Dave explains it, I am just not seeing it.  

Thanks,

Mike

BTW - I dont intend to hijack this thread.  I think it is on topic.  If not, I will make another thread.

 

[junk731]

What thickness of material are you using? If I understand your question right you would take your opening measurement + material thickness of one gable - 3mm for door /drawer width, this would center the door when using half overlay hinges. Door width would be increased on the gable ends if you didn't want an excessive reveal.

John

 

[FestoolMike]

I am using 3/4" or 19 mm sheet goods for the units.

 

[ororaf]

Hello, I skimmed through all of the replies that you received on the subject of 32mm cabinets.  You have a very nice collection of url's and PDF documents.  I have been looking at the other parts of the FOG and else where and found the following two links.  http://festoolownersgroup.com/member-projects/euro-cabinets-101-2-a-beginner's-guide/ and Brice Burrell's use of the parallel guide and 32mm system http://www.burrellcustomcarpentry.com/subpage98.html

 

[sancho57]

I like Danny Proulx book its a great general overview of the frameless/32mm system.

Here is a link I found for the LR32 system.

I dont have one yet but I booked marked it just in case  I do get one.

http://benchmark.20m.com/tools/Festool/32mm/festool_32mmholes.html

 

[Trecklin]

Hello,

I have a question regarding the side panel on a cabinet. When I'm reading that a panel height is 768mm (24x32mm) does this number represent the finished inside dimensions or does it include the cabinet base and top?

Well figured it out. Cut all my side panels to 800mm allowing for 16mm on the top and 16mm for the bottom and set up Parallel Guide as a jig with LR32 as seen on youtube Festool parallel guide and LR32 guide rail used as a jig for 32mm panels
Worked perfect.

 

[Blouis79]

[...] noticed that the holes on these cabinets are drilled 27mm from the front. Is this a special IKEA feature?  ???

Measuring our old ikea cabinets, I got 28mm setback of the hole row. Due to manufacturing tolerances, there is some variation. 28mm is consistent with Blum and Hettich drawer runners, which have an extra hole 9mm in front of the "standard" 37mm setback hole, which means that one can probably put an appropriate Blum or Hettich drawer in an ikea cabinet without drilling too much. So I've been looking at Blum process 32 and Hettich system 32 and their drawer rails trying to figure where the Ikea 32mm system comes from. Also looked at the other 32mm systems mentioned by others here (KISS, True 32, etc). All of the "systems" look seriously flawed in various ways. What a dog's breakfast.

The main flaw of the Ikea system is that one can't put an internal drawer at the bottom of a cabinet with a hinged door, because the door hinge uses the bottom two holes. The second problem is the design with a tall plinth 160mm, wasting space. I guess that allows for a shorter plinth in markets where the people are shorter. They do make an under cabinet drawer now.

For my limited needs, Ikea hinges and drawer runners are a whole lot cheaper than Blum ones for equivalent quality and will keep me mostly happy. The extra depth of the standard Ikea 600mm deep module gains bench and drawer space missing from most custom kitchens I have seen. Obviously, there is not the product range of Blum (or others). Presumably Blum likes there to be certain incompatibility of their products with their Ikea OEM product. I have been looking to see if a system would be compatible with Ikea and others. I am repeatedly annoyed that local custom cabinet makers seem to like to hang all drawer fronts the same as the bottom one which has to cover the cabinet base. This KISS method (all drawers are made on the same template) wastes 16mm of usable drawer height for every drawer apart from the bottom one.

So the parameters I want for a simple and efficient cabinet system, accounting for Murphy's law:
1. Cabinets with sides reversible top to bottom, indexed from front. Automatically, doors would also be reversible left to right with a 180deg rotation.
2. Minimum clearance for bottom drawer runner as part of the system.

Optionally for cost efficiency:
3. Use an Ikea drawer runner if it suits.
4. Fit an Ikea door or drawer front if desired
5. Make a custom fronts for ikea cabinets

Ikea drawer runners appear to be designed for its 32mm system with 28mm from floor of cabinet to first hole. Drawer mount holes are +300mm and rear shelf pin +525mm from the front hole. Ikea cabinets look to have 46.5mm from end of side panel to second hole presumably based on Blum Process 32.

Blum drawer runners mostly are designed for 33mm minimum clearance from floor of cabinet to first hole. Second hole row is mostly 256 from first and despite loads of extra hole "columns", there are none that are 300mm apart. Crazily, the Blum Process 32 document shows "out of system" holes for the bottom drawer, since Process 32 has 27.5mm clear below first hole. So why bother with Blum and Process 32 at all?

Hettich drawer runners look all different without apparent system in mind for mounting the bottom drawer. Odd since Hettich is attributed with invention of the 32mm system (according to the German version of Wikipedia). The main kitchen drawer runners need 37 and 42mm clearance below the mount hole, but have an extra row of holes 12mm lower than those, so 25 and 30mm is good. System 32's lowest 2 holes are 22.5 and 54.5mm clear of the cabinet base, so Hettich drawer runners don't work in the Hettich system either, without wasting 12.5mm. As with Blum, loads of extra holes with the 2 rows in multiple columns, but none at 300mm either.

Grass drawer runners need 49.5mm clearance. Will do 28 and 37mm setback front hole. Nearest to 300mm is Grass standard 288+9=297mm. Looks not really designed for a system as the GRASS Nova Pro drilling pattern looks rather random.

Looks like I will stick to mostly "Ikea system 32" (28mm hole setback, 46.5mm from end to first hole) and Ikea hardware. For extra flexibility, I can use Hettich drawer runners (25mm clearance works with 28 available). Suggest the second row 265mm (256+9) from the first, as opposed to the unique Ikea 300mm.

LR32 looks designed for Hettich system 32 with 41.5mm = LR32+9.5guide stop. The 16 and 32mm guide stops aren't quite any system I have found.

Can do Ikea/Blum system 32 holes with LR32+16guide stop+1.5mm pack on the guide stop end. With the carcass butt join the other way around, can do LR32+32guide+4mm pack on the guide stop end to get 28mm. I guess that way leaves room for error if the base is not 100% square to the side when assembled.

For a fully commercial hardware system the Blum Process 32 hole spacing should work properly with the Hettich drawer runners! The Ikea drawer front dimensions avoid the messy unaligned drawer gaps problem. If a taller base cabinet is desired, making the bottom drawer taller will retain the tidy system drawer look.