Activate Karma?

[Eli]

I think there might be one or two. But you'd really be barking up the wrong tree so to speak....

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Good Morning,
Lately, there has been some discussion about giving members labels such as "contractor" or indicating who receives free tools.  This has at times been a messy, contentious debate.  In the end, the fact is we need to trust each other, and our value to the community is based on the reliability and usefulness of the information we provide.

Recently we have had a few members who do great work in their posts.  At the same time, we have had a small number of members who have caused some problems.

As the administrator, I often have to deal with all these issues at once.  I've struggled with how to involve the community in these issues, and yet not make too much of a big deal about it publicly.  After much thought, I believe the best way to resolve these issues is to have a silent but visible way for the community to weigh in on a member's positive or negative impact.

I have activated a feature known as "Karma."  It's been discussed before, as you can see from the posts above.  But I feel this feature is now more useful.  I've done my research, and when Karma is activated in a forum, the level of positive posts tends to go up.

Here are the benefits of Karma:

• When people are helpful to the community, their "peer rating" goes up, regardless of whether they are contractors, reviewers, or whatever.
• When you have a positive peer rating, you will be motivated to keep it -- and make it more positive!
• I may not have to deal with as many offline complaints, since people can make their negative feelings known by voting.
• Rather than me having to write to members and tell them they are causing issues, they will see an indication of that in their peer rating.

Here's the way it works...

In any given post, right below a person's name you will see this:
[attachimg=1]

• Every member starts off with a peer rating of 0 (neutral).
• Any active member can click on positive or negative.  That adds or subtracts from the member's peer rating.
• As time goes on, the rating becomes more of a reflection of the person's general standing in the community.
• You can vote once every day for any member, thereby changing that member's peer rating.

If anyone has questions or comments, please feel free to post them here.

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[graphex]

Great move, Matthew. I think as this feature matures a bit, it will have a very positive affect on the tone of the forum.

 

[poto]

Just out of curiosity - is there any way you (Matthew) or any other FOG member can find out who has voted for/against them? The scope for retribution seems pretty vast - and unpleasant to comtemplate.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Just out of curiosity - is there any way you (Matthew) or any other FOG member can find out who has voted for/against them?

No, the voting is anonymous.  Not even the administrator knows who voted what.  The only thing the administrator can do is prevent people from voting for him!  But to me, that would be dishonest.  I should be given a Karma rating just like everyone else.

The scope for retribution seems pretty vast - and unpleasant to comtemplate.

The key thing about this feature is, you can vote over and over again for someone (once every 24 hours).  That allows the Karma to be a fluid tracking of your effect on the community.  If your peer ratings suddenly shoots up, that says you're doing something right -- keep it up!  If the opposite happens...well, you know.

It's just starting out right now, so a couple of votes one way or the other seems like a lot.  But eventually, it will take many votes to change your Karma, which means it will gradually become a more accurate snap shot of your standing in the community.

We can try it out in an experimental basis, and determine if it's working or not.

Other comments or suggestions?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[graphex]

Just out of curiosity - is there any way you (Matthew) or any other FOG member can find out who has voted for/against them? The scope for retribution seems pretty vast - and unpleasant to comtemplate.

Yeah, if I get my hands on the guy that gave me the -1 I'll k.... I mean I'll kindly thank him for showing me the error of my ways.  

After things get going and the karma totals start adding up (or down, in my case most likely) I'd tend to prefer "Enable karma total" instead of "Enable karma positive/negative".

 

[slb]

It seems to me that the biggest weakness, which others noted in the earlier discussion, is that it is ambiguous what a + or - really means.  Value of contribution?  Quality of writing?  Agree/disagree with opinion stated?  Good photos?  Appreciation of humor?  Popularity?  I don't see how something with such vague meaning can improve the quality of the forum or of my own posts.

It's also not clear to me what the number of votes means.  Can the same person vote more than once about the same posting?  Can they search out all your postings and vote on each of them if they want to flood your rating?  Won't people who post frequently tend to get the largest positive and/or negative scores?  Can you vote on your own posting, or perhaps recruit stooges to enhance your own/destroy your enemy's?  It seems very vulnerable to manipulation.

That said, I guess we'll see how it goes.

 

[Daviddubya]

I just went back and reread this thread.  There was not one single post in favor of implementing the karma rating.

 

[greg mann]

I just went back and reread this thread.  There was not one single post in favor of implementing the karma rating.

Dave, I'm okay with it. And just so you know, one of your plusses was from me. ;D

 

[Matthew Schenker]

After things get going and the karma totals start adding up (or down, in my case most likely) I'd tend to prefer "Enable karma total" instead of "Enable karma positive/negative".

I'm glad you mention this!  Yes, that is the other option, and some people may like it better than a +/- scenario.

OK, Steve asked some good questions, which I will attempt to answer one at a time...

It seems to me that the biggest weakness, which others noted in the earlier discussion, is that it is ambiguous what a + or - really means.  Value of contribution?  Quality of writing?  Agree/disagree with opinion stated?  Good photos?  Appreciation of humor?  Popularity?

In other forums that have had this system in place for a long time, it does start to become a reflection of the member's general contribution.  The system works, but of course it takes time for the votes to reach a high enough level.

... Can the same person vote more than once about the same posting?

You can vote once a day for a member.  Where you vote is up to you, but it's only once a day.  I can change the frequency, but once a day seems like a fair balance for now.

... Can they search out all your postings and vote on each of them if they want to flood your rating?

Again, they can only vote once a day.  So, if you have 100 posts, it would take someone 100 days to flood your rating.  I think that's unlikely.

... Won't people who post frequently tend to get the largest positive and/or negative scores?

Not necessarily!  It depends on what you post.  I believe the members here are wise enough not to just vote on numbers alone.

Can you vote on your own posting, or perhaps recruit stooges to enhance your own/destroy your enemy's?

No, you cannot vote for yourself.  If you look below your name, you'll see the "Peer Rating" is not there.  Regarding the recruitment of "stooges" (good word): that sort of thing is possible even without Karma!

It seems very vulnerable to manipulation.

Well, yes, but not any more than other elements of the forum.  The very idea of a forum is people posting ideas and responses.  That system is itself open to manipulation.

I just went back and reread this thread.  There was not one single post in favor of implementing the karma rating.

That's true.  But the forum has developed some new needs since then, and I wanted to give it another try.

The funny thing is, Karma is a default feature of the forum.  It's actually the more unusual thing to turn it off.

Have my answers helped?

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[woodshopdemos]

Matthew,
  I dn't like karma and beyond that Ithink re. the forum, less not more.. Specifically, we have too many sub=forums.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Matthew,
  I dn't like karma and beyond that Ithink re. the forum, less not more.. Specifically, we have too many sub=forums.

The structure may be getting too complex, I admit.
Can you start a new discussionon this?
Matthew

 

[dirtydeeds]

have to say, i have mixed feelings, on this karma thing

ive seen it in operation on a couple of english sites

it simply decended into chaos

because peoples karma in the end

depended on your mates (if people liked your point of view)

SIMPLE disagreement with a point of view could get your karma knocked

even worse, if you were "billy no mates" you where knackered

anyway

we see how it goes

dd

 

[woodshopdemos]

I think not. Your response says that you are aware of it so I will leave it in your capable hands. Thanks.

 

[monte]

hmmm,

hmmm, Michael......

Minus 26 on your Karma level?

should I pull out the string of garlic and silver cross?

(or is it a wooden cross and a silver bullet?)

R.

________________________________________

[attachimg=#]

________________________________________

Anybody wanna guess what my vote on the "KK" is?  (Karma Kops)

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Roger,
Hey, my record is under .500 at the moment!

Seriously, this is a feature that probably should never have been turned off in the first place.  In the beginning, the numbers can be swayed by a few individuals, but over time it becomes a better representation of your general stand in the community.  Give it a little time.  Besides, anyone who hates the idea can just not vote.

Thanks,
Matthew

 

[Michael Kellough]

hmmm,

hmmm, Michael......

Minus 26 on your Karma level?

should I pull out the string of garlic and silver cross?

(or is it a wooden cross and a silver bullet?)

R.

________________________________________

[attachimg=#]

________________________________________

Anybody wanna guess what my vote on the "KK" is?  (Karma Kops)

Since Rick has left the building...

Rick Christopherson
.

Peer Rating: +3/-135
[Positive] [Negative]
Offline

I guess I win the bag of sawdust, eh?

 

[slb]

Matthew, thanks for the answers  .  I have innate distrust of vague voting systems.  They tend to produce things like a definition I once saw for "history" (paraphrased - and I have no idea who originated it)  "history is the currently favored set of lies about the past".  But, again, we'll see what develops here.

Steve

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Steve,
We'll watch it.  But I feel that because it originates from our peers, the numbers do reflect something beyond a temporary glitch.  Also, because people can keep voting, one can always go up or down in the eyes of our peers.  In the beginning, it might be clunky, but after it goes long enough, it is hard to argue with it.

We're all in it together!

Stay in touch,
Matthew

 

[BlueMaxx]

I rarely comment on things of this nature but feel I need too on this "Karma" issue. It is misleading, childish, and inane. Inane as in lacking significance, meaning, or point...silly I am stopping there on adjectives.
I was stumbling around and saw the feature, not familiar with it I clicked on it. I voted on someones rating thinking I was going to see something. So I effectively rated someone in ignorance.
I recently started coming to this site because I am fixing to drop a boat load of money into some festool equipment. I wanted to read from actual users on how they liked their equipment, how they used it in their shop. However after reading some of the odd ideas about how to label people and now how to rate them I am saddened.
I do not care if you are a contractor, a bloke who dreams about someday having some tools or the Grand-Master Wizard of all things Festool. Why does this have to become a popularity issue..which is basically what this "karma" thing is.
The more complicated you make the machine the more things there are to go wrong. This is only going to create animosity and folks threatening to meet at the bike rack after school.
A free exchange of ideas is powerful. Pigeonholing is dangerous.