Advice sought on learning dovetails

[FOGNewbie]

Was wondering if any of the experienced guys had any advice about learning how to do dovetails, i.e., router and jig vs. hand tools.  I have an OF 1400 and bought a dovetail jig a couple of months ago, which I have not even tried to set up yet, but have some time this weekend.  Was wondering if anyone thought it would be best to learn to do it by hand first and then move to the router method after getting the feel for how these things go together, or vice versa.  As a hobbyist, I am in no rush to complete projects, but just want to learn the techniques.  Thanks.

Not really addressing your initial question in regards to which technique you should learn first, but am giving another option to learn.

The Dovetail Collection- Popular Woodworking

I do think there is value in learning to do by hand first. I usually get a better idea about what a joining technique is all about when I learn to do it by hand. Most of the time when I use a machine, I am more focused on the machine and it's settings then I am on the joint/ fit, form,and the joints function. For whatever reason, I think more about how things relate when I learn to do it by hand first. Plus by learning both techniques, it sometimes helps me learn fixes to mistakes.

 

[grbmds]

Was wondering if any of the experienced guys had any advice about learning how to do dovetails, i.e., router and jig vs. hand tools.  I have an OF 1400 and bought a dovetail jig a couple of months ago, which I have not even tried to set up yet, but have some time this weekend.  Was wondering if anyone thought it would be best to learn to do it by hand first and then move to the router method after getting the feel for how these things go together, or vice versa.  As a hobbyist, I am in no rush to complete projects, but just want to learn the techniques.  Thanks.

Not really addressing your initial question in regards to which technique you should learn first, but am giving another option to learn.

The Dovetail Collection- Popular Woodworking

I do think there is value in learning to do by hand first. I usually get a better idea about what a joining technique is all about when I learn to do it by hand. Most of the time when I use a machine, I am more focused on the machine and it's settings then I am on the joint/ fit, form,and the joints function. For whatever reason, I think more about how things relate when I learn to do it by hand first. Plus by learning both techniques, it sometimes helps me learn fixes to mistakes.

While I think it's a great idea to learn how to hand cut dovetails, I don't do it. I tried for awhile and just got frustrated given my limited time in the shop. I have found that, with my recent acquisition of the Incra combo, I can focus on the fit and get excellent and relatively quick results. I have not tried variable sized dovetails but believe it would also be fairly easy. It is addressed as a possible option by skipping appropriate template marks and/or making adjacent cuts, depending on whether you're cutting pins or tails. Obviously there is not quite as much flexibility as when you cut them by hand in terms of design. For me, I want them to look good, fit tight enough to be solid joints, and I don't want to take forever to do them. Those who have done a lot of hand cut dovetails go with that, but I just don't want to spend the time doing that at this point in my life. Some get more satisfaction from the process of handcuttiing. Whatever gives you the most satisfaction is what you should do. That is what woodworking is all about for me.

 

[FOGNewbie]

Was wondering if any of the experienced guys had any advice about learning how to do dovetails, i.e., router and jig vs. hand tools.  I have an OF 1400 and bought a dovetail jig a couple of months ago, which I have not even tried to set up yet, but have some time this weekend.  Was wondering if anyone thought it would be best to learn to do it by hand first and then move to the router method after getting the feel for how these things go together, or vice versa.  As a hobbyist, I am in no rush to complete projects, but just want to learn the techniques.  Thanks.

Not really addressing your initial question in regards to which technique you should learn first, but am giving another option to learn.

The Dovetail Collection- Popular Woodworking

I do think there is value in learning to do by hand first. I usually get a better idea about what a joining technique is all about when I learn to do it by hand. Most of the time when I use a machine, I am more focused on the machine and it's settings then I am on the joint/ fit, form,and the joints function. For whatever reason, I think more about how things relate when I learn to do it by hand first. Plus by learning both techniques, it sometimes helps me learn fixes to mistakes.

While I think it's a great idea to learn how to hand cut dovetails, I don't do it. I tried for awhile and just got frustrated given my limited time in the shop. I have found that, with my recent acquisition of the Incra combo, I can focus on the fit and get excellent and relatively quick results. I have not tried variable sized dovetails but believe it would also be fairly easy. It is addressed as a possible option by skipping appropriate template marks and/or making adjacent cuts, depending on whether you're cutting pins or tails. Obviously there is not quite as much flexibility as when you cut them by hand in terms of design. For me, I want them to look good, fit tight enough to be solid joints, and I don't want to take forever to do them. Those who have done a lot of hand cut dovetails go with that, but I just don't want to spend the time doing that at this point in my life. Some get more satisfaction from the process of handcuttiing. Whatever gives you the most satisfaction is what you should do. That is what woodworking is all about for me.

Agree! For me woodworking is currently a hobby. I have little to no formal training and I learn best from hands on experiences. With that said, for whatever reason, It seems to stick with me a little better if I give it a go with hand tools first.

The quality of work? That's a whole different conversation. :-[

I really like threads like this because they make me think about how, and why I am doing what I am doing. One can gain just as much satisfaction creating things totally by machine, as they can totally by hand or some combination. I'm greedy, so I am hopeful that I can get to the point where I can successfully create dovetails by hand and with my Leigh Jig. I will be watching Peter's video(s) on the Leigh Jig. I have a Super 24. I've yet to learn to use it.

In the meantime, I am hoping to settle on a way to hand cut dovetails. I have a Glen-Drake saw and a Dozuki saw, but am still considering getting a traditional Western style rift cut dovetail saw(Veritas? Lie Niesen?) before I lock into a technique. Since I have a Glen Drake, I think I will revisit some of his techniques. After that I will try a traditional western saw and see what I like best?

Glen Drake tools: Using a Joinery saw

BTW I got the Glen Drake saw because I had trouble starting cuts. I now know that there are some tricks to starting a cut with traditional Western saws.

 

[grbmds]

Was wondering if any of the experienced guys had any advice about learning how to do dovetails, i.e., router and jig vs. hand tools.  I have an OF 1400 and bought a dovetail jig a couple of months ago, which I have not even tried to set up yet, but have some time this weekend.  Was wondering if anyone thought it would be best to learn to do it by hand first and then move to the router method after getting the feel for how these things go together, or vice versa.  As a hobbyist, I am in no rush to complete projects, but just want to learn the techniques.  Thanks.

Not really addressing your initial question in regards to which technique you should learn first, but am giving another option to learn.

The Dovetail Collection- Popular Woodworking

I do think there is value in learning to do by hand first. I usually get a better idea about what a joining technique is all about when I learn to do it by hand. Most of the time when I use a machine, I am more focused on the machine and it's settings then I am on the joint/ fit, form,and the joints function. For whatever reason, I think more about how things relate when I learn to do it by hand first. Plus by learning both techniques, it sometimes helps me learn fixes to mistakes.

While I think it's a great idea to learn how to hand cut dovetails, I don't do it. I tried for awhile and just got frustrated given my limited time in the shop. I have found that, with my recent acquisition of the Incra combo, I can focus on the fit and get excellent and relatively quick results. I have not tried variable sized dovetails but believe it would also be fairly easy. It is addressed as a possible option by skipping appropriate template marks and/or making adjacent cuts, depending on whether you're cutting pins or tails. Obviously there is not quite as much flexibility as when you cut them by hand in terms of design. For me, I want them to look good, fit tight enough to be solid joints, and I don't want to take forever to do them. Those who have done a lot of hand cut dovetails go with that, but I just don't want to spend the time doing that at this point in my life. Some get more satisfaction from the process of handcuttiing. Whatever gives you the most satisfaction is what you should do. That is what woodworking is all about for me.

Agree! For me woodworking is currently a hobby. I have little to no formal training and I learn best from hands on experiences. With that said, for whatever reason, It seems to stick with me a little better if I give it a go with hand tools first.

The quality of work? That's a whole different conversation. :-[

I really like threads like this because they make me think about how, and why I am doing what I am doing. One can gain just as much satisfaction creating things totally by machine, as they can totally by hand or some combination. I'm greedy, so I am hopeful that I can get to the point where I can successfully create dovetails by hand and with my Leigh Jig. I will be watching Peter's video(s) on the Leigh Jig. I have a Super 24. I've yet to learn to use it.

In the meantime, I am hoping to settle on a way to hand cut dovetails. I have a Glen-Drake saw and a Dozuki saw, but am still considering getting a traditional Western style rift cut dovetail saw(Veritas? Lie Niesen?) before I lock into a technique. Since I have a Glen Drake, I think I will revisit some of his techniques. After that I will try a traditional western saw and see what I like best?

Glen Drake tools: Using a Joinery saw

BTW I got the Glen Drake saw because I had trouble starting cuts. I now know that there are some tricks to starting a cut with traditional Western saws.

I find that, to determine if a particular method works for me for any work, I need to give a fair shot by using it for an extended period of time before switching methods. Otherwise it's hard to gain the skills to know if it works or not.

 

[FOGNewbie]

"I find that, to determine if a particular method works for me for any work, I need to give a fair shot by using it for an extended period of time before switching methods. Otherwise it's hard to gain the skills to know if it works or not."

Makes sense to me. I was mostly referring to which saw I would use. As I think about techniques, I am also trying to decide which saw works the best for me. Trying to find a balance between ease of cut(especially starting the cut) and keeping the cut straight. Once I figure out that part, I will be following your advice and locking into a particular way until I get proficient at it.

I am borderline obsessing on the saw part, because I know that I will need to be proficient at sawing for any of the hand techniques to work well. Right now many of my cuts look like I am trying to make 3D Jigsaw puzzle pieces...

 

[grbmds]

Also makes sense, but it's sometimes really just getting used to a tool or developing skills with it. With sharpening, for example, the expert advice is to pick jigs, honing guides, stones, and stick with them for awhile; maybe even as long as 6 months or a year. Some things it just takes practice to get good. I would think hand-cutting dovetails is one of those things and getting comfortable with a saw would be a big deal.

 

[mouppe]

I can't see any skill overlap between machine-cutting dovetails and hand-cutting them with the exception of having to accurately prepare square stock. They rarely even look the same! One is to do with precisely setting up a jig and router and the other involves accurate marking out, sawing, chiseling and paring.

There's not even much overlap between the type of dovetails you can do with each method. You can achieve much finer pins when hand-cutting than with a router bit.

So I would choose a method based on what look you are going for, and which skills you want to develop. 

 

[jacko9]

One word of advise I'll give on hand cutting of dovetails is start with "friendly wood".  If you try using white oak or other open pore woods you'll run into a lot of saw drift, edge splitting, etc.

Start with a wood like mahogany or poplar where you get a chance to develop your techniques without the more troublesome issues with difficult woods.

Sharpening requires a lot of practice and I know from experience that your fingers will bleed trying to hold that edge just right while trying to get the perfect edge.  It's not metal residue when it's red!

The Veritas MkII sharpening jig along with the Shapton Glass or Shapton Pro water stones will give you the best result in the shortest time and serve you well for many years.

A quote from one of the woodworking experts I read a long time ago was if your going to build a hope chest for your first project build it for small hopes [wink]

Jack

 

[FOGNewbie]

I can't see any skill overlap between machine-cutting dovetails and hand-cutting them with the exception of having to accurately prepare square stock. They rarely even look the same! One is to do with precisely setting up a jig and router and the other involves accurate marking out, sawing, chiseling and paring.

There's not even much overlap between the type of dovetails you can do with each method. You can achieve much finer pins when hand-cutting than with a router bit.

So I would choose a method based on what look you are going for, and which skills you want to develop.

Valid points. For me, handcutting dovetails is what I would prefer for many reasons. The main one is that I mostly build one offs. I could see in the future that I may want to build something with multiple drawers, etc., or join a large cabinet. That is why I am still hopeful that one day I can do both well.

 

[jacko9]

I can't see any skill overlap between machine-cutting dovetails and hand-cutting them with the exception of having to accurately prepare square stock. They rarely even look the same! One is to do with precisely setting up a jig and router and the other involves accurate marking out, sawing, chiseling and paring.

There's not even much overlap between the type of dovetails you can do with each method. You can achieve much finer pins when hand-cutting than with a router bit.

So I would choose a method based on what look you are going for, and which skills you want to develop.

Valid points. For me, handcutting dovetails is what I would prefer for many reasons. The main one is that I mostly build one offs. I could see in the future that I may want to build something with multiple drawers, etc., or join a large cabinet. That is why I am still hopeful that one day I can do both well.

Get some of the books by James Krenov and read about his treatment of hand cut dovetails and you will see that there is a difference between hand made and machine made if you can execute them like he did.  I have the Leigh 24" dovetail jig and yes I can cut variable spaced dovetails but I'm still stuck with the geometry of the router cutter.

Jack

 

[grbmds]

Maybe there is more flexibility with handout. However, I want my finished product to look good also. My hand cut dovetails never looked good and I will admit to really just not wanting to spend the time. There is no skill overlap between hand cut and machine cut dovetails. For me, though, other than learning about dovetails, there has never been an upside to hand cutting dovetails. I love woodworking and creating pieces from wood whether drawers or other items. However, I do love doing other things also, like fishing, golf, fly fishing, hiking, bicycling, reading, watching movies, traveling.  .  . If I spend my time perfecting my hand cut dovetail technique time for other things suffer. So for those who want to hand cut dovetails, I give you a lot of credit for your patience during the learning process, your willingness to put up with results that aren't close to perfect (at least for the time you're learning), and I envy your available time for just that one thing. That is what woodworking is all about - satisfaction, relaxation, etc. So, whatever you get satisfaction from go for it.

 

[FOGNewbie]

Maybe there is more flexibility with handout. However, I want my finished product to look good also. My hand cut dovetails never looked good and I will admit to really just not wanting to spend the time. There is no skill overlap between hand cut and machine cut dovetails. For me, though, other than learning about dovetails, there has never been an upside to hand cutting dovetails. I love woodworking and creating pieces from wood whether drawers or other items. However, I do love doing other things also, like fishing, golf, fly fishing, hiking, bicycling, reading, watching movies, traveling.  .  . If I spend my time perfecting my hand cut dovetail technique time for other things suffer. So for those who want to hand cut dovetails, I give you a lot of credit for your patience during the learning process, your willingness to put up with results that aren't close to perfect (at least for the time you're learning), and I envy your available time for just that one thing. That is what woodworking is all about - satisfaction, relaxation, etc. So, whatever you get satisfaction from go for it.

Very well stated. That is the beauty of woodworking. Whether by hand or machine, we are all trying to get to those "perfect" pieces. If we just wanted to slap stuff together, we wouldn't be looking at Festool.

Happy woodworking!

 

[woodwrights_corner]

I have really enjoyed Ian Kirby's book, THE COMPLETE DOVETAIL.  It is a good reader, an excellent reference source and includes practice exercises.  It will take you as far as you want to go with traditional dovetails.  While it doesn't have specific jig information, once one understands the information in this book it makes transitioning to any jig easier.

A great investment for about $12-15.

 

[FOGNewbie]

I have really enjoyed Ian Kirby's book, THE COMPLETE DOVETAIL.  It is a good reader, an excellent reference source and includes practice exercises.  It will take you as far as you want to go with traditional dovetails.  While it doesn't have specific jig information, once one understands the information in this book it makes transitioning to any jig easier.

A great investment for about $12-15.

Good to know. I just got that book. Working on two Krenov books, then I plan on reading that. The book is also part of a package Popular Woodworking is offering. I linked it in an earlier post in this thread.

 

[Holmz]

If you have the time to do it by hand, then I think it is worth trying.

In theory it seems possible to do the pins with a machine and the tails by hand.

So knowing and understanding both does not seem like wasted effort.