All you need to know about the old and new DF500s (including why paddles replaced the pins and why cordless) -- straight from the horse's mouth

[Frnk]

Lastly, I don't buy the lazy/made-up argument that not putting a handle in the RQ model is offering buyers a choice. The claimed 50% of users who are ok with the use of the barrel (like operationg a biscuit joiner) is irrelevant.

German is a low-context language. It’s explicit, direct, and self-contained.

Wolfgang gives you three facts; he’s not “presenting an argument.” The best way of interpreting what he wrote is to understand each of his points at face value and not try to read them as doubling down on something. Offering two alternative grip designs in the line-up is a result of the decision not to redesign it. He’s not trying to sell it as an argument for it.

• They didn’t want to redesign the motor part.
• Some users like the barrel grip because they are used to it.
• Offering two grip versions does give you the choice.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I don’t have a problem using the tool in its original form. There are aftermarket handles now for those who have a problem. Haven’t tried any of them but they look too tall to me, putting the thrust too far above the axis of the bit. So far the 3D printed handles are just copying the DF 700 handle. Maybe someone will be a little more imaginative.

 

[ChuckS]

German is a low-context language. It’s explicit, direct, and self-contained.

Wolfgang gives you three facts; he’s not “presenting an argument.” The best way of interpreting what he wrote is to understand each of his points at face value and not try to read them as doubling down on something. Offering two alternative grip designs in the line-up is a result of the decision not to redesign it. He’s not trying to sell it as an argument for it.

• They didn’t want to redesign the motor part.
• Some users like the barrel grip because they are used to it.
• Offering two grip versions does give you the choice.

About choices, if I had the option to choose a corded machine with a handle or a corded machine without the handle, then I agree it was a choice.

 

[Frnk]

About choices, if I had the option to choose a corded machine with a handle or a corded machine without the handle, then I agree it was a choice.

You certainly have a choice. You even have to choose now what you value more: a cord or a specific handle. It’s up to you to choose what is the better compromise for you. It’s a fixed menu, not a buffet—and the chef does not accept substitutes.

 

[ChuckS]

Suffice to say that's a choice to you, but not to me. If a particular chef doesn't accept substitutes, it's their choice. But as a customer, I've on many many occasions requested changes or substitutes to a menu dish and most, if not all, of my requests have been accepted. I'm pretty sure most diners have had experience like mine -- even at fancy dining places as long as they don't mind asking. At least, that's how many many Canadian restaurants and chefs across the country are accommodating their customers.

 

[Frnk]

Semantics, I know.

The fact that you’re not happy with what’s available doesn’t mean you lack the same choices as everyone else. Dismissing an option is also a choice. You could have the D-grip, but it comes without a cable, so you choose to dismiss it for this very reason. “I can’t have what I want” and “I don’t have a choice” aren’t equivalent. Dissatisfaction with options ≠ absence of choice. Dismissing the cordless D-grip due to no cable is a deliberate selection on your part, not an outside constraint.

Choices have consequences. And I think that's okay most of the time—especially when they're as relevant as in the Festool Domino grip design.

 

[ChuckS]

To be clear, I am not unhappy with what's available. I'm simply stating the so-called choice is a pseudo choice in my book.

 

[luvmytoolz]

I have no interest whatsoever in a cordless Domino, or in fact any cordless tool that still requires a dust extractor to be connected to, but if I didn't have the DF500 already I would buy the cordless Domino just for the new handle and happily put up with changing batteries out.

 

[onocoffee]

I get people's consternation regarding cordless and a dust hose - I trend towards that thinking. However, no one seems to mind the lack of a cord with cordless tools that are now commonplace - like a drill/driver. And I think people wouldn't complain about using the cordless drill in a situation where they want to have dust collection - like with the D27-BSD.

When I use the Hercules 20v compact router, I guess I'm unlike the YouTubers because I'll shove the Bauer dust collection hose (the only one that fits) into it and collect as much dust as I can - and that hose is not easy to maneuver!

I did stop by my Festool dealer today to have a closer look at the DF700 handle and try it out with both horizontal and vertical plunges. If I hold it by the handle, with my thumb on the switch, it feels as though the guides grind a little on the rails. If I adjust it lower so that my hand is more inline with the rails, and essentially behind the tool, it plunges smoothly. Perhaps it's more me being used to the 500 but I feel as though using the handle may cause some slight plunge error.

 

[luvmytoolz]

@onocoffee For me the difference is whether the dust extractor is required to operate the tool, or is optional.

With the Domino's dust extraction is required otherwise you can run into all sorts of nasties, so if the corded and cordless DF500's were the same design without the D handle, I absolutely would choose the corded model over the cordless.

For the planer, trimmer, plunge saw, Kapex 60, etc I'll be buying cordless for the adhoc usage convenience, as dust extraction while nice, isn't required for these tools.

 

[Neil Lickfold]

With brushless vac technology today, a mini extractor could be built into the tool and dump the chips into a collection bag. If the DF500 or DF700 is making dust, you have very dull cutters or something else is wrong. But who knows what that would add to the price.
On the 500 to 700 situation, the larger cutters definately require a lot more sturdy machine, especially when extending the cutting length considerably as well.
Having made my own cutters, have seen why they went around the path that they did for their own cutters. Especially for the fish tail type centre geometry.
That reduces significantly the tendency for the cutting tool to want to drag or move the machine around when it starts the inital cuts into the surface.
I like that you buy the bits and it works the same every time.
That was an interesting video I thought anyway. Thanks for sharing it.

 

[MacBoy]

German is a low-context language. It’s explicit, direct, and self-contained

Thank you for that insight, and the explanation of Wolfgang’s presentation of three facts.

Sincerely appreciated.

I may not be happy with the choices they made, and life goes onwards.

 

[mino]

...
That said, some after-market accessories like the TSO Big Foot and Veritas Domino Joinery Table add precision/handling capability to the domino machine in some applications. So the machine still has its limitations.

I was surprised that they didn't release their new models with a bigger support bracket, which, unlike redesigning the motor, would be a simple, no brainer thing to do.
...

The smaller/lighter foot has its place and uses, so just "making it bigger" would not work, they would need to add a second option, competing directly with the supporting vendors.

I think Festool is enabling an aftermarket ecosystem built around their tools. Taking away business from the likes of TSO or Seneca is not in their interest. It would see those companies focusing more on competitor's products, hurting Festool in the bigger picture, and not add /much/ direct revenue either.

...
Lastly, I don't buy the lazy/made-up argument that not putting a handle in the RQ model is offering buyers a choice. The claimed 50% of users who are ok with the use of the barrel (like operationg a biscuit joiner) is irrelevant. What about the other half (or perhaps more than half) who want a handle? You fix it if there's a deficiency.

Sorry. But it is no 'deficiency'. Period. A design choice between two functional options is not a deficiency. It never is.

Putting that axiom aside, the DD40s, the Lamellos, everybody but the DF 700 all use the barrel design. It is the natural form factor for a light/compact tool. Trying to imply those are all defective tools is .. disingenuous. Yes, I have big hands which can wrap around it, so the barrel form factor is natural, for me. The DFC is awkward. For me.

The DF 500 R is after their existing user base - so refinements only is the name of the game.
The DFC 500 is after additional markets, so being more radical is desirable/justified.
Marketing 101.

That aside, this social media era culture of looking for a 'conspiracy' in just about everything is just .. tiring. Got 'nough of it from the women around me. God bless them.

 

[ChuckS]

Oh well. You seem to have either read too much real conspiracy stuff or read stuff that isn't conspiracy but you still think it is in your head. Both surely will make you feel tired.

If you don't over read, trust me, you'll see less conspiracy here -- or elsewhere. People are just expressing their viewpoints.

 

[ChuckS]

I get people's consternation regarding cordless and a dust hose - I trend towards that thinking. However, no one seems to mind the lack of a cord with cordless tools that are now commonplace - like a drill/driver. And I think people wouldn't complain about using the cordless drill in a situation where they want to have dust collection - like with the D27-BSD.

When I use the Hercules 20v compact router, I guess I'm unlike the YouTubers because I'll shove the Bauer dust collection hose (the only one that fits) into it and collect as much dust as I can - and that hose is not easy to maneuver!

I did stop by my Festool dealer today to have a closer look at the DF700 handle and try it out with both horizontal and vertical plunges. If I hold it by the handle, with my thumb on the switch, it feels as though the guides grind a little on the rails. If I adjust it lower so that my hand is more inline with the rails, and essentially behind the tool, it plunges smoothly. Perhaps it's more me being used to the 500 but I feel as though using the handle may cause some slight plunge error.

Your experience about the DF700 handle may not be that of other DF700 users. But, it is in general agreement with what authorized Festool store sales employees (or ex-employees) I befriend have shared.

If we look at the DFC handle and the DF700 handle, we can clearly see the handle on the cordless model is an improvement. We should accept the opinion of the people who say their DF700 handle or weight work very well (for them). We all have different ways of doing things or tools and levels of tolerance.

 

[mino]

Oh well. You seem to have either read too much real conspiracy stuff or read stuff that isn't conspiracy but you still think it is in your head. Both surely will make you feel tired.

If you don't over read, trust me, you'll see less conspiracy here -- or elsewhere. People are just expressing their viewpoints.

Yes, I absolutely do believe the Festool guy statements represent the base of their actual reasoning. Those statements are plausible, justifiable and were not written in marketing-speak. I may not share the reasoning, but I absolutely do believe it is their reasoning. There is zero indication to me that they are flat-out lying.

---

That out, lets do some OT:

"Lastly, I don't buy the lazy/made-up argument that not putting a handle in the RQ model is offering buyers a choice."

Your words. Not mine.

I put 'conspiracy' in quotes. Indicating a broader position against today's ever-present insinuation everyone has some ulterior motive for every possible action they do. And then feeling the need to criticise that imagined ulterior motive. Not blaming you. You are not the source of this. Such thinking is sadly the norm online these days.

The more open a person/entity is - Festool was unusually open in their response - the more conviction there is of some absolutely vile ulterior motive they absolutely must have when they are so open. What are they hiding being so seemingly open! There is just no possible way that what they say is what they mean .. It is tiring. And is also extremely insulting in the German culture. /I am not/

/OT

 

[ChuckS]

There you're, with your conspiracy lens on: "Indicating a broader position against today's ever-present insinuation everyone has some ulterior motive for every possible action they do. And then feeling the need to criticise that imagined ulterior motive."

When people have a different take on something, they naturally are expected to give their points to support their views.

In my case, I considered the partial reason given for the absence of a D handle in the new corded machine (RQ) as a choice a pseduo choice and a poor argument. I didn't dispute the motor consideration. There wasn't any conspiracy; it was a direct statement of how I felt about calling the absence of a choice itself as a choice.

Surely, you don't agree with my statement (and it's totally fine), but you shouldn't treat or look at it as some of form conspiracy either. I understand the world is full of conspiracists (and many are influencers as well), especially so now that we have had a new world order. I don't blame you for reading news or opinions with your eyes open.

Relax. Conspiracists are few and far between on this forum.

 

[ChuckS]

@onocoffee For me the difference is whether the dust extractor is required to operate the tool, or is optional.

With the Domino's dust extraction is required otherwise you can run into all sorts of nasties, so if the corded and cordless DF500's were the same design without the D handle, I absolutely would choose the corded model over the cordless.

For the planer, trimmer, plunge saw, Kapex 60, etc I'll be buying cordless for the adhoc usage convenience, as dust extraction while nice, isn't required for these tools.

I have never used my domino without dust extraction (I think I've seen some YouTubers do it (out of lazyness or just for a quick shot?) I suspect the risk of the 4mm cutter getting damaged is higher if it is used in hardwood milling without dust collection. The cutter is fragile and I broke one before.

 

[onocoffee]

Your experience about the DF700 handle may not be that of other DF700 users. But, it is in general agreement with what authorized Festool store sales employees (or ex-employees) I befriend have shared.

If we look at the DFC handle and the DF700 handle, we can clearly see the handle on the cordless model is an improvement. We should accept the opinion of the people who say their DF700 handle or weight work very well (for them). We all have different ways of doing things or tools and levels of tolerance.

I don't think that my comment implied that others experiences are invalidated. It was only my limited observation and initial reaction. As with any tool, like the DF500, you can learn to operate it well.

 

[ChuckS]

Haha. My bad. My comment was meant for the general audience, not you.