Any use for a damaged MFT/3 rail?

JohnDistai said:
I was talking about the table profile that mounts to the side of the table.

Was it the long profile or the short?  I might be interested in buying the profile after you get the new one.

Peter

 
John,

I had the exact samething happened to me when I bought my 1st MFT months ago from beavertools.com. As you have noticed, the long sides of the MFT, even if carefully packaged can be easily bent because of not enough packaging there in my book. However, my dealer got me a replacement part in 2 days. It took couple of minutes to install (it snaps into place pretty easily). I was so pleased with service from my dealer that I had no problem in ordering other festools from him after that (including a second MFT, router, T15, etc..).  Now for the bent part I do have, since the 'posterior' part of it is still straight, I use it as a kind of straightedge in my jigs.

Cheers

Alex
 
It was the long one.  What would you use it for?

John,

I have been working on something for several months that may involve a profile.  Unfortunately, I am not able to discuss it at this time.  I'm not trying to be rude, just prudent.

Peter
 
Hey Peter! I asked first  ;D

Michael Kellough said:
Any use?

Yes.

If the guide rail is damaged cut out the bad spot and you've got
two shorty guide rails. They won't be especially useful with the MFT
itself but they are useful for short cuts when working on stuff too big for the MFT.

A damaged MFT rail may still just fine structurally but you do deserve one
that is cosmetically sound too. If that is what is damaged I'd be happy to buy it
from you if the price is right.
You really only need a foot or so of MFT extrusion
(to hold each guide rail fixture) to make a homemade MFT styled cutting table.
 
Quote-Wood Junkie
"Yes it takes time, but that's the price you pay for not purchasing it locally..."

This was also my first thought.
Both of my local dealers work together to make sure end users are satisfied. In one case I had a damaged part that Dealer #1 didn't have a replacement for. D#1 called D#2 and "borrowed" what I needed. I had my part in 20 minutes. These 2 businesses are in direct competition with each other but can work together to keep their customers happy.
I do realize that many folk don't have the luxury of two dealers within a 40 minute drive like I do (Australia comes to mind) but receiving damaged goods is part of the gamble when buying over the web.
 
Having dealt with European import products for over 20 years, I'll throw in my two cents.  The packaging on most European tools is designed to protect the product while it is transit stacked on a pallet and tied together with dozens of others just like it. A minimum of interior blocking and bracing is employed and an effort is made to ensure that the package dimension is absolutely no larger than necessary.

Now, contrast that to UPS requirements, which state that to get an insurance settlement a product must have interior blocking and bracing that will keep it intact after a 4 foot free fall and that absolutely no product should be within 2 inches of the outer carton. Mail order buying isn't as common in Europe as it is here in the States, so designing a package for individual shipment just isn't contemplated.

I haven't looked at Festool packaging analytically, but I have enough stuff that I've seen how they do things, and it isn't much different from most other quality European manufacturers.  I don't think I am going out on a limb by saying that if the dealer took the factory packaging, slapped a label on it and sent it out on UPS or FedEx, the chances that it will be damaged are better than 50/50.  It is up to the dealer to package the goods for individual shipment, which as Bob has pointed out, is not an inexpensive proposition.

John, I feel your pain, but your angst should be directed at the shipping company and your dealer, not at Festool. While I am sure that they are well aware that a lot of tools in the USA are being sold by mail, I would guess that world wide the percentage of Festool products that ship individually would be under 10%.  They're not going to (nor should they be expected to) change the packaging design standards to accommodate that fraction of the market.

A lot of retailers -- even many who rely on internet and mail order trade -- just don't get this. 
 
I'm curious where you found those UPS packaging requirements, Jeff. I'd like to  read them in detail...

I agree with your assertion that the packaging as provided by the manufacturer may not be adequate for common carrier delivery. I don't think much is, short of a JOBOX.

It was my understanding, based on the documentation that UPS puts out, that packaging must
pass tests set forth in the International Safe Transit Association (ISTA) Procedure 3A
. This testing procedure describes environmental conditions and punishment procedures like shock & vibration that are appropriate for Parcel Delivery System Shipment.

The requirements of ISTA Procedure 3A are pretty brutal and include dropping the package onto heavy metal objects and dropping heavy metal objects onto the package.

Additionally, UPS has a clause that states,
the packaging must afford reasonable protection as determined by UPS in its sole judgment
.

As a shipper, my conclusion a long time ago was, "you pays your money and you takes your chances". I try to package everything reasonably and am prepared to respond quickly to alleviate any problems that might arise during a shipment. I've made crates but normally use cardboard boxes. I rarely have problems unless something is really unwieldy, like guide rails and MFT's.

Tom

 
Interesting thread all around... makes me think that it would be really nice if there was a 'return crate' option with some outfits like UPS et al. Basically, dealer builds a crate specifically or such items, that holds the package in question, and gets return-shipped to the dealer on the next go round. Might save a pile of $$ for UPS, and save a lot of hassles for the dealers. It wold make the dealer-made crates more cost-efficient that way. (multiple uses... cooooool)
 
Thanks, Balrog! I've read the stuff about how they rate various boxes and their reasoning for derating the box mfr's ratings.

UPS goes into more detail in their more legal-like documents about the ISTA testing procedures I mentioned. Basically, they are saying that if you can't prove that you have followed those testing procedures, they don't have any liability. The real kicker in those testing procedures is that they require multiple tests be conducted and the results documented for each package possibility.

That would work fine if one were shipping 1000's of the same package with the same contents. Then it might make sense to perform the testing. For my typical shipments, which vary each time, it doesn't make sense for me to even try to comply. Complying with those requirements would mean that I'd have to make up the package, subject it to various atmospheric conditions (some that simulate flight), do vibration testing, impact testing, etc. and then analyze & document the results. Then I would have to make up a new package and repeat the test multiple times.

It's their out... If they don't want to pay a claim, they don't and they are pretty ridiculous about it sometimes. They will send two people out to a site to avoid paying less than $50. They've done it to me.

How many of you will go out to a customer's house with a helper for less than $50? I think very few.

James:

What you are saying would work out except the shipping costs would about double. There are certain things where it makes sense to have dedicated crates that travel around with them. My neighbor is the Pres. of a semiconductor mfg equipment mfr. They have a BIG reusable crate that they ship around with some test equipment. It's more like a coffin for a 600 pound man, the kind of person that is as wide as they are tall...

For things like MFT's or Kapex's it might make sense also. I think by the time you added the crate and all, it would have to go LTL anyway.

Tom
 
Hey, I'm not mad at Festool per se.  As an Industrial Engineering type, I would think that a quality organization such as Festool would do some analysis of their claims and costs and perhaps beef up their packaging for the U.S., if U.S. shipping practices differ from those in Europe.  You would think that they would beef up that part of the box to prevent damaged rail claims.  I don't know why people are defending this and placing the blame solely on UPS.  If the packaging stinks, it stinks.  It seems that some of the U.S. dealers realize that, and they take steps to fix it.  Again, if Festool is so interested in "systems" thinking, then they need to look at the supply chain, packaging, and damage claims as its own "system".  It seems that some of the more reputable U.S. dealers are implementing work-arounds to protect shipments because they understand the constraints of the U.S. supply chain system.  If Festool is so interested in "systems" thinking, then they shouldn't ignore this aspect of their packaging, and work to improve it.

Aside from the insufficient guarding of the rails, Festool should also look at how these boxes are handled.  The MFT tables weigh about 80 lbs, which may be on the cusp or slightly above some of the lifting requirements of workers in the U.S. supply chain.  A box this size and this heavy is bound to be mis-treated.  Can you lessen the weight?  Nope.  But you can add handles to the packaging, much like Panasonic does for its flat screen TV boxes.  By providing a handling affordance, perhaps people moving the boxes would be able to grasp and handle the load more easily, leading to less damage and fewer claims.  For the Festool reps reading this, Festool sure likes to have customers pay for Festool's intellectual property.  I just provided some industrial engineering and ergonomic analysis that could save Festool and its dealers a great deal of money in shipping and handling-related damages.  My intellectual property shouldn't be free either, so I would appreciate tools or accessories to compensate me for this.

On another note for Tom and Bob, in a full MFT/3 shipment, does the 42" rail come pre-packaged with the table, or do you have to add it to the package before shipment?  I'm curious because there was a hole in one of the ends of my MFT box and the box for the rail had mailing label with my address.
 
James Watriss said:
Interesting thread all around... makes me think that it would be really nice if there was a 'return crate' option with some outfits like UPS et al. Basically, dealer builds a crate specifically or such items, that holds the package in question, and gets return-shipped to the dealer on the next go round. Might save a pile of $$ for UPS, and save a lot of hassles for the dealers. It wold make the dealer-made crates more cost-efficient that way. (multiple uses... cooooool)

A lot of companies in Germany are doing this already! They have specialty shipping boxes that are standardized through out europe. Best example are wooden pallets. Called Europaletten. Those are build in several sizes that will fit fork lifts and pallet jacks. They are also constructed in a way that makes them usable over and over again, you even get a refund! Have a standardization in place allows delivery van manufacturers to optimize their designs. Take the Dodge Sprinter for example: The side door is big enough to get those pallets in and with a forklift! Try doing this with a chevy express....

Anyhow, these systems are already in place all over the world... just not in North America --uuuuhhh ohhhh be careful, it could ruin our economy  [tongue] [crying] [mad] [wink]
 
in a full MFT/3 shipment, does the 42" rail come pre-packaged with the table, or do you have to add it to the package before shipment?  I'm curious because there was a hole in one of the ends of my MFT box and the box for the rail had mailing label with my address.

That sounds pretty strange, John. Unless something has changed that I don't know about, the rail and all accessories are in the big box with the table. The rail does come in its own box within the big box.

Tom
 
Tom Bellemare said:
in a full MFT/3 shipment, does the 42" rail come pre-packaged with the table, or do you have to add it to the package before shipment?  I'm curious because there was a hole in one of the ends of my MFT box and the box for the rail had mailing label with my address.

That sounds pretty strange, John. Unless something has changed that I don't know about, the rail and all accessories are in the big box with the table. The rail does come in its own box within the big box.

Tom

Agree with Tom here. The rail (with the fence) come packaged together in its own box, inside the MFT box.

  Bob
 
JohnDistai, sorry to hear you got a damaged rail. I hope you are getting your new rail soon. It should have left Lebanon on the day you called (if you called before 12:00PM EST) or the next day.

A couple of comments about packaging:

We try to minimize shipping damage by reinforcing some of the packaging and doing tests with new packaging. We send for example new items  
from the East to the West and back a couple of times and record how the package and the contents look. We also give new products (like the Kapex) to UPS. They have a laboratory that can simulate shipments all over the US and then report back if a package and the contents are likely to survive or not.

Doing all this does not prevent that occasionally shipments arrive damaged. Most of the time we ship out replacement parts. Sometimes it is necessary to
replace the entire product. And while it is unfortunate that some packages arrive damaged, the number of shipments that arrive damaged is very small.

Christian

 
I have had many, many shipments from Festool (maybe too many  ;)) and I've had only one incident of shipping damage.

The shipment was two Sysports, and when the truck arrived they were the only boxes in one of those super long semi-trailers (probably the end of the run). They were laying on their sides, and it was obvious that they had been sliding around inside the trailer. The boxes looked fine, so I accepted them. But, when I unpacked them I found that one had been hit so hard that the sides were buckled, so badly that it was actually about an inch shorter than it was supposed to be. Anyone who owns a Sysport knows how well they're built, so imagine how hard it must have been hit.

I called my dealer (Bob Marino) and he had a new Sysport shipped immediately, no questions asked. Later someone from Festool called to investigate exactly what had happened. After I told them what I had seen in the truck, they said both Sysports had left Lebanon strapped to a pallet, which would surely have prevented such damage. The trucking company took full responsibility, and came by several weeks later to pick up the damaged item. I hope they enjoyed their "customized" Sysport.  ;D

The whole thing was handled so quickly, and so well by Bob and Festool, I don't remember even having a chance to get upset.
 
I asked my dealer to follow up to ensure the part was coming.  It's been a couple of days and I haven't heard anything.  I'm pretty disappointed.
 
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