I recently bought a 2024 Ford E-Transit Medium roof, 148" cargo van for work. I wasn't looking for an electric van, but the price was hard to pass up at $27,000. I've only had it for a few days, but I really like how it drives versus my former 2019 Ram Promaster van. Its much smoother and quieter on the road. I know the 160 mile battery range has its limitations, but for local work it seems pretty nice. It also has a pro power station to charge batteries and supply power for tools if necessary. I'm just starting to buildout the cargo area for my equipment. I'm curious if anyone is doing the same, and if so, how has the van worked out? Thanks
Anybody driving an electric Ford E-Transit cargo van?
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Congratulations on your van! I looked on the Ford website and couldn't see anything about interior layout or if it was different from gas transits. We have a few gas Transit owners here (including me - 2015 130" Mid) so you might get some suggestions. For even more idea wise you might want to check out the Ford Transit Forums. There are areas of the van where not to drill and also easy places to connect, especially using rivnuts.
Peter
Peter
Crazyraceguy
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In Pennsylvania? Don't those electric vehicles have issues with the cold weather? Isn't the range affected even more? Mountains?
I get it, smooth and quiet are great. I really prefer battery powered fork lifts to propane, since the hydraulics are so much smoother. You never have to rev the engine to speed up the pump. They are nowhere near as jerky.
I get it, smooth and quiet are great. I really prefer battery powered fork lifts to propane, since the hydraulics are so much smoother. You never have to rev the engine to speed up the pump. They are nowhere near as jerky.
Crazyraceguy said:
I'm in the Alps in Europe, a lot of work around 2000m of altitude (6500ft), we regularly get -10°C (14°F) but it does go down to -20°C (-4°F) sometimes. My main work van for day to day driving is a VW electric, I get up to a 20% hit in the winter (can be as low as a 10% hit) - in the summer I'm doing about 20% better than official figures, across the year it evens out. The reason I do so well in the summer is because although there is a hit going uphill, the regeneration going down hill is insane, enough to slow a 3000kg vehicle (6600lbs) to an almost stop - over a 25km run (15.5 miles) that's a lot of energy being recuperated. A lot of myths about for EVs in general... my Transit sized work van (also VW) is diesel and guess what, there is a hit in cold weather, there is a hit towing, and a mega hit going uphill - and the diesel tank doesn't get filled back up on the way down! Also at -10°C the engine has to run for a good 20 minutes before you can even think about scraping the layer of ice of the windows - in the EV, I click on the app 10 minutes before I go outside, I take a 1% battery hit, but it's warm and de-iced.
Walter Cronkat
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Wow, how did you find a new one for $27k??
In July I bought a 2022 E Transit, High Roof Extended with 33K miles for $25k. It was a delivery van in Berkley CA, so it has some dents, but thats what got me the good price.
I love it, I've wanted a van for awhile and when I found this one I knew I needed to jump on it. Its a game changer having all my tools inside and organized. Leaving the house every morning with a full charge is awesome too. Operating cost is so cheap. My 2002 Duramax was about 40 cents a mile to operate, the E-Transit is 4 cents a mile. It has a range of 120 miles, but my farthest install has been 50 miles away, most are 30-40. Most of my clients homes have an ev charger, if not I can always plug in 120v and gain about 5% charge while working.
With the heavy battery down low, its actually a really stable vehicle on windy mountain roads for being such a long tall van.
For anyone looking for a work van, I would highly recommend electric, you save alot of money and time.
In July I bought a 2022 E Transit, High Roof Extended with 33K miles for $25k. It was a delivery van in Berkley CA, so it has some dents, but thats what got me the good price.
I love it, I've wanted a van for awhile and when I found this one I knew I needed to jump on it. Its a game changer having all my tools inside and organized. Leaving the house every morning with a full charge is awesome too. Operating cost is so cheap. My 2002 Duramax was about 40 cents a mile to operate, the E-Transit is 4 cents a mile. It has a range of 120 miles, but my farthest install has been 50 miles away, most are 30-40. Most of my clients homes have an ev charger, if not I can always plug in 120v and gain about 5% charge while working.
With the heavy battery down low, its actually a really stable vehicle on windy mountain roads for being such a long tall van.
For anyone looking for a work van, I would highly recommend electric, you save alot of money and time.
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woodbutcherbower
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I was planning on writing a knowledgeable and thoroughly informed anti-EV rant, but I'll stay quiet because we're all different and we have different work priorities and situations. There's not a chance that I'd ever buy an electric van. Three trade buddies succumbed to the glitzy advertising and leased one for insane money. Within three months, they were all wishing like crazy that they hadn't. But they're all tied into 3-year leases so they're stuck with them.
Walter Cronkat
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[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] I would be interested in hearing your informed anti EV rant, most I hear are uninformed.
EV's are not for everyone or every situation, but for many they are a great option.
EV's are not for everyone or every situation, but for many they are a great option.
I wouldn't recommend paying full retail for a new electric van in the US yet. I'm sure Ford will make many improvements in the next few years. My 2024 e-transit with a lot of nice options, low miles, and in like new condition was more than half off the original sticker price. The e-transit, like the Lightning isn't for everyone, which is probably why there are so many deals out there for these used vehicles that apparently did not work for the original owner. If you can live within the range, and charge at home its an interesting option. I rarely travel more than 60 miles in a day for work. I'll save enough on fuel and the purchase price vs a regular van to more than pay for the occasional rental if I need one for long hauls. There is a dealer near DC that has a few used 24's under $30,000 for anyone interested.
woodbutcherbower
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[member=74627]Walter Cronkat[/member] Since you asked - here goes. No prejudice, no hysteria, no hidden agenda - just observations and facts presented to me by three owners who are close friends and long-term work colleagues;
My van's a Transit Custom - it's a midsize not available in North America. It's the biggest-selling van in the UK with annual sales of around 45,000 = almost four times that of its closest competitor. It was the UK's biggest-selling vehicle in 2022. (Not the biggest-selling van = the biggest-selling vehicle). My local Ford Transit dealer right now currently has 28 brand-new electric ones on his forecourt which he can't sell - because nobody wants them. By comparison, the delivery time on new diesels is 3 months. This is making him uncomfortable because the UK Government has set crazy and unreachable targets for manufacturers to sell a certain percentage of EV's, with IC engines shortly to be burdened with equally crazy tax disincentives.
The three trade buddies I mentioned all have virtually identical stories to tell, and all three were sucked in by a combination of the marketing hype, along with the subliminal pressure applied by dealers desperate to meet EV sales targets. So bearing in mind my initial comment about everyone's situation being different and in the spirit of complete honesty, let me also qualify this by saying that I'm from a region in the UK which has lots of hills, lakes, forests - and a lot of rural, isolated towns and villages which is where a large proportion of our work comes from. So let me first tell you about Martin, a friend who I've worked alongside for 30 years. He's a plasterer who bought the new e-version six months ago;
Range of up to 250 miles*
In tiny print at the bottom of the brochure - *Estimated. Actual range will vary according to driving conditions (It's the get-out-of-jail card which you'll see on literally every EV advertisement).
But moving on ...... it became immediately obvious to Martin that what he thought he was buying was nothing close. The quoted (or suggested possible) range was based on a best-case, ideal scenario which bore ZERO comparison to actual reality;
Ideal = It's a nice, temperate day (70 degrees F) - so the battery's at optimum temperature. The van's lights are off, the heater's off, the A/C's off, the wipers are off, and the radio's off. The van's unladen, and there's a 170-pound guy at the wheel, wearing a delicate, fluffy pink slipper shoe on his right foot. The road is dead flat and dead straight with no gradients and no headwind. 250 miles? Sure, I'll buy that.
Actual = It's 6am and Martin's on the way to today's job. There are three burly guys in the front weighing a combined 630 pounds. It's December, it's dark, it's 25 degrees F, and sleet is falling. So the lights are on, the heater's on, the wipers are on, and the radio's on. There's a quarter-ton of plasterboard in the back, plus half a ton of bonding, plasterboard adhesive and multiple 25kg sacks of plaster, along with trestles, sheeting, mixing buckets, power mixers, and all the other stuff these guys use.
The job's in a small town only 30 miles from home, but which involves multiple long hill climbs which are like scaling the north face of the Eiger.
Martin gets to the job and realises that despite starting out with a full battery - he possibly doesn't have enough charge left to get home, even though the van will now be way lighter and some of the return journey will be downhill. 'Range anxiety' kicks in. He tries to Google 'nearest charger' but he can't, because there's no cellphone signal up in these hills. So he leaves his two buddies to start without him, whilst he drives around trying to get a signal and some 3G. He eventually does. The nearest charger's 12 miles away from where he now is. So he drives there to charge, thinking that he can leave the van and get a taxi back to the jobsite. He hooks up - but he can't charge because it's a machine with a credit card slot, and unless you've created an account with the charger company, your card won't work. But he can't go online to create an account - because there's no cellphone signal. So he drives around again until 3G kicks in, and he creates an account. He drives back to the charger - which now has a car plugged into it. The charger display reads 'charging at 19%' - so that car could be there for hours. Martin gives up and drives back to the jobsite, two hours after he left it. The guys finally finish up and leave at 4pm. The job's taken way longer because a 2-man crew have struggled on a 3-man job for some of the morning. They get to within 5 miles from home and are down at 2% charge, so they have to stop at a garage to recharge. They wait for an hour and a half for a charger to become free and available, but Martin firstly has to go online an create another account because this charger's operated by a different company. He now has six different accounts.
My second buddy Lee is a roofer. His 9-month-old van has so far spent 2 months in the dealership's service department. Doors won't lock, heater won't work, tailgate keeps auto-locking, brake warning light is constantly on - a whole list of minor faults which take forever to fix because all the parts come from China and Ford can't seem to keep pace. The AA, RAC and Green Flag (the UK's roadside assistance companies) don't flip the hood and fix your EV - they just tow you to the nearest main delaership. None of the thousands of independent back-street skilled mechanics can fix EV's either - so once your warranty expires, every time you have a problem you're at the mercy of a main dealer who will pull down your pants every time. Lee hopes his battery doesn't give out, because it's 19,000 bucks for a new one.
I'm not going to tell you about Chris the stonemason, because his story is way worse.
I think you can see why I like my 185-horsepower diesel Transit Custom. It does 700 miles on a tank, it's Euro-6 compliant meaning that it emits zero NOx and particulates. I've put 100,000 miles on the clock since new, and it's been 100% reliable = not a single, solitary fault.
Edit = the UK list price for the basic, poverty-spec version is $63,000. Add a few options or take a better trim level, and add $15,000 easy. Depreciation is off the scale.
Nope.
My van's a Transit Custom - it's a midsize not available in North America. It's the biggest-selling van in the UK with annual sales of around 45,000 = almost four times that of its closest competitor. It was the UK's biggest-selling vehicle in 2022. (Not the biggest-selling van = the biggest-selling vehicle). My local Ford Transit dealer right now currently has 28 brand-new electric ones on his forecourt which he can't sell - because nobody wants them. By comparison, the delivery time on new diesels is 3 months. This is making him uncomfortable because the UK Government has set crazy and unreachable targets for manufacturers to sell a certain percentage of EV's, with IC engines shortly to be burdened with equally crazy tax disincentives.
The three trade buddies I mentioned all have virtually identical stories to tell, and all three were sucked in by a combination of the marketing hype, along with the subliminal pressure applied by dealers desperate to meet EV sales targets. So bearing in mind my initial comment about everyone's situation being different and in the spirit of complete honesty, let me also qualify this by saying that I'm from a region in the UK which has lots of hills, lakes, forests - and a lot of rural, isolated towns and villages which is where a large proportion of our work comes from. So let me first tell you about Martin, a friend who I've worked alongside for 30 years. He's a plasterer who bought the new e-version six months ago;
Range of up to 250 miles*
In tiny print at the bottom of the brochure - *Estimated. Actual range will vary according to driving conditions (It's the get-out-of-jail card which you'll see on literally every EV advertisement).
But moving on ...... it became immediately obvious to Martin that what he thought he was buying was nothing close. The quoted (or suggested possible) range was based on a best-case, ideal scenario which bore ZERO comparison to actual reality;
Ideal = It's a nice, temperate day (70 degrees F) - so the battery's at optimum temperature. The van's lights are off, the heater's off, the A/C's off, the wipers are off, and the radio's off. The van's unladen, and there's a 170-pound guy at the wheel, wearing a delicate, fluffy pink slipper shoe on his right foot. The road is dead flat and dead straight with no gradients and no headwind. 250 miles? Sure, I'll buy that.
Actual = It's 6am and Martin's on the way to today's job. There are three burly guys in the front weighing a combined 630 pounds. It's December, it's dark, it's 25 degrees F, and sleet is falling. So the lights are on, the heater's on, the wipers are on, and the radio's on. There's a quarter-ton of plasterboard in the back, plus half a ton of bonding, plasterboard adhesive and multiple 25kg sacks of plaster, along with trestles, sheeting, mixing buckets, power mixers, and all the other stuff these guys use.
The job's in a small town only 30 miles from home, but which involves multiple long hill climbs which are like scaling the north face of the Eiger.
Martin gets to the job and realises that despite starting out with a full battery - he possibly doesn't have enough charge left to get home, even though the van will now be way lighter and some of the return journey will be downhill. 'Range anxiety' kicks in. He tries to Google 'nearest charger' but he can't, because there's no cellphone signal up in these hills. So he leaves his two buddies to start without him, whilst he drives around trying to get a signal and some 3G. He eventually does. The nearest charger's 12 miles away from where he now is. So he drives there to charge, thinking that he can leave the van and get a taxi back to the jobsite. He hooks up - but he can't charge because it's a machine with a credit card slot, and unless you've created an account with the charger company, your card won't work. But he can't go online to create an account - because there's no cellphone signal. So he drives around again until 3G kicks in, and he creates an account. He drives back to the charger - which now has a car plugged into it. The charger display reads 'charging at 19%' - so that car could be there for hours. Martin gives up and drives back to the jobsite, two hours after he left it. The guys finally finish up and leave at 4pm. The job's taken way longer because a 2-man crew have struggled on a 3-man job for some of the morning. They get to within 5 miles from home and are down at 2% charge, so they have to stop at a garage to recharge. They wait for an hour and a half for a charger to become free and available, but Martin firstly has to go online an create another account because this charger's operated by a different company. He now has six different accounts.
My second buddy Lee is a roofer. His 9-month-old van has so far spent 2 months in the dealership's service department. Doors won't lock, heater won't work, tailgate keeps auto-locking, brake warning light is constantly on - a whole list of minor faults which take forever to fix because all the parts come from China and Ford can't seem to keep pace. The AA, RAC and Green Flag (the UK's roadside assistance companies) don't flip the hood and fix your EV - they just tow you to the nearest main delaership. None of the thousands of independent back-street skilled mechanics can fix EV's either - so once your warranty expires, every time you have a problem you're at the mercy of a main dealer who will pull down your pants every time. Lee hopes his battery doesn't give out, because it's 19,000 bucks for a new one.
I'm not going to tell you about Chris the stonemason, because his story is way worse.
I think you can see why I like my 185-horsepower diesel Transit Custom. It does 700 miles on a tank, it's Euro-6 compliant meaning that it emits zero NOx and particulates. I've put 100,000 miles on the clock since new, and it's been 100% reliable = not a single, solitary fault.
Edit = the UK list price for the basic, poverty-spec version is $63,000. Add a few options or take a better trim level, and add $15,000 easy. Depreciation is off the scale.
Nope.
Walter Cronkat
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[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] Thanks for the rant, a good one!
I agree and can attest to when temps are below 30 F, range can drop by 20-30%, but I find it hard to believe your friend could not get to work and back, 60 miles on a full charge. I have the largest transit they make, loaded with tools (the van weighs nearly 10k lbs total) and on the cold days of 30 degrees (using the heater) my range goes from 120 down to 88 miles. All my jobs are 30-40 miles away, going over mountain passes with 1500-2000 elevation gain. On an install I always plug in at least with my 120v charger and can gain 10% charge during a work day. I've yet to come back home with less than 20% charge.
Driving an EV is definitely way different than a gas or diesel. It takes more planning ahead, plug in every night so you leave every morning full. The little extra work is worth it if you your commute fits within the range of the vehicle.
I'll admit living on the West Coast in a city with one of Teslas factories does give me a lot of infrastructure, as well as my wife working for Tesla for 10 yrs and us owning a Tesla for 4 yrs, I have become well versed in the advantages and limitations of EVs. I do think they are not marketed correctly. Now I care about the environment and conservation, but I'm no tree hugger and environmental reasons are not why I got an EV. They are quick, fun to drive, much cheaper to operate, and more convenient.
There are definitely still use cases where a diesel van with 700 mile range makes much more sense than an EV. Driving an EV is a mindset shift, but I think its worth it in most cases.
I agree and can attest to when temps are below 30 F, range can drop by 20-30%, but I find it hard to believe your friend could not get to work and back, 60 miles on a full charge. I have the largest transit they make, loaded with tools (the van weighs nearly 10k lbs total) and on the cold days of 30 degrees (using the heater) my range goes from 120 down to 88 miles. All my jobs are 30-40 miles away, going over mountain passes with 1500-2000 elevation gain. On an install I always plug in at least with my 120v charger and can gain 10% charge during a work day. I've yet to come back home with less than 20% charge.
Driving an EV is definitely way different than a gas or diesel. It takes more planning ahead, plug in every night so you leave every morning full. The little extra work is worth it if you your commute fits within the range of the vehicle.
I'll admit living on the West Coast in a city with one of Teslas factories does give me a lot of infrastructure, as well as my wife working for Tesla for 10 yrs and us owning a Tesla for 4 yrs, I have become well versed in the advantages and limitations of EVs. I do think they are not marketed correctly. Now I care about the environment and conservation, but I'm no tree hugger and environmental reasons are not why I got an EV. They are quick, fun to drive, much cheaper to operate, and more convenient.
There are definitely still use cases where a diesel van with 700 mile range makes much more sense than an EV. Driving an EV is a mindset shift, but I think its worth it in most cases.
^^^ this... I think your friend may have buyers remorse (or leasers remorse!) and has embellished the story.Walter Cronkat said:
OK three burly guys and some plasterboard... yeah I get it, there a few hundred kilos, but it's a small addition to the already couple of thousand kilos of van, it doesn't make that much difference. Heater? it will consume maybe 5kwh getting up to temperature, after that very little to maintain temperature, let's say it takes 15 minutes to heat the van - it's used 1.25kw - again not a huge amount compared to a 80ish kwh battery.
It's not 'because the internet says so' that it's true... I have a lot of (non-EV owners) telling me how bad it is going to impact my life/work/etc., none of who have ever driven an EV.
Yes it takes a bit of forethought to use, I've done 6000km road trips no sweat though, so it's not that hard. Day to day use, I park at my workshop and plug in, it takes 10 seconds. My nearest diesel filling station takes 20 minutes drive plus filling time... oh and I'm saving about 4000€ per year.
After that, I have no bias one way or another, I have a diesel too (and the new replacement diesel arrives in Feb!)... but I do wish we could have an official contract for the all the people who say 'I will never drive/buy an electric' and then they'll be stuck in 10 years time
/s
woodbutcherbower
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[member=79486]Fourmi[/member] Your skepticism is understandable, but the guy’s as honest as you could imagine. ‘Some plasterboard’ weighed three-quarters of a ton. And let me also reinforce the fact that some of these hills are crazy-steep. Like 1 in 8. And the ‘60 miles’ didn’t include all of the hill miles he drove whilst trying to get some cell signal.
Yep - it’s a pretty extreme case. But to me - a commercial vehicle being used to earn a living has to do everything you need it to. And this van doesn’t.
I’m happy that EV owners in a different situation have something which works for them - and I totally get the appeal - especially the part about having a charging facility where you’re working. My post wasn’t an anti-EV rant, it was simply three shared experiences.
Yep - it’s a pretty extreme case. But to me - a commercial vehicle being used to earn a living has to do everything you need it to. And this van doesn’t.
I’m happy that EV owners in a different situation have something which works for them - and I totally get the appeal - especially the part about having a charging facility where you’re working. My post wasn’t an anti-EV rant, it was simply three shared experiences.
woodbutcherbower said:
I certainly agree with you... and thinking about it, there have been a few electric vans released that are basically modified combustion engine vehicles (i.e. VW E-Crafter with an E-Golf motor and battery!) range is shocking, it should never have been released!.. - and I've been driving VW's 30+ years. If they got hoodwinked into leasing something like that, yeah they won't be happy. But some of the new stuff being released (Mercedes E-Sprinter, Renault Master E-Tech, and of course the Ford E-Transit) have a good useable 350/400km useable range.
Michael Kellough
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When the EREV tech makes it to work vans that will solve some of those problems.
A gas engine (could be diesel) serves solely to run a generator so the EV range is only limited by the size of the fuel tank.
In the meantime couldn’t current EV Transit owners carry a small generator to a remote worksite a charge while they work?
A gas engine (could be diesel) serves solely to run a generator so the EV range is only limited by the size of the fuel tank.
In the meantime couldn’t current EV Transit owners carry a small generator to a remote worksite a charge while they work?
I wonder if the N.A. and EU versions of this vehicle possibly have slightly different specs??
(or even post Brexit UK???)
Seems it would certainly be assembled in global region plants rather than shipped and with a maze of various subsidies and mandates might a manufacturer alter things a bit by market?
(or even post Brexit UK???)
Seems it would certainly be assembled in global region plants rather than shipped and with a maze of various subsidies and mandates might a manufacturer alter things a bit by market?
bobtskutter
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This is a great thread.
There are a group of 30yr olds at the company I work for who have replaced their high powered BMW's with Tesla's. They buy the car second hand for a cheap cost, pay the extra for insurance (did you know EV's have higher insurance premiums) and relish the fact they have almost 600hp and All-Wheel drive. They charge the vehicle up every night! I can understand that sort of reason for EV ownership.
I've heard lots of other stories about EV owners who struggle to live with it "in the real world". Driving everywhere with no heating on is a story I've heard a lot.
[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] I really hope your mates get sorted, trades people need reliable transport!
Bob
There are a group of 30yr olds at the company I work for who have replaced their high powered BMW's with Tesla's. They buy the car second hand for a cheap cost, pay the extra for insurance (did you know EV's have higher insurance premiums) and relish the fact they have almost 600hp and All-Wheel drive. They charge the vehicle up every night! I can understand that sort of reason for EV ownership.
I've heard lots of other stories about EV owners who struggle to live with it "in the real world". Driving everywhere with no heating on is a story I've heard a lot.
[member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] I really hope your mates get sorted, trades people need reliable transport!
Bob
bobtskutter
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I just looked at the Ford UK website.
The eTransit has a 68kWh battery (only one size available).
The Mach-E has 72 or 91 kWh options.
Usually commercial vehicles have larger fuel tanks than family cars.
Bob
The eTransit has a 68kWh battery (only one size available).
The Mach-E has 72 or 91 kWh options.
Usually commercial vehicles have larger fuel tanks than family cars.
Bob
In 2022 Ford introduced the E-Transit to the US with a 68 kWh battery providing the low roof van a 126 mile range. Subtract 2% range for the medium roof van, and 4% for the high roof van.
In 2024 Ford increased the battery size to 89 kWh raising the range to 160 miles for the low roof van. Apparently Ford also improved the charging speed.
Same specs for 2025.
In 2024 Ford increased the battery size to 89 kWh raising the range to 160 miles for the low roof van. Apparently Ford also improved the charging speed.
Same specs for 2025.
Michael Kellough said:
EREV is the only hybrid tech that makes any sense. There is company in the Balkans - EV Clinic, the guy posts regularly about hybrid problems, worth reading before you buy a hybrid (just in case anyone is thinking about it!)
Buying an EV is no different to any other purchase, it requires an informed decision, and that involves research. [member=75780]woodbutcherbower[/member] I quote "all three were sucked in by a combination of the marketing hype, along with the subliminal pressure applied by dealers" - this is not (for me) an informed decision.
There will always be concerns about buying into new tech - "but the batteries wear out and cost so much"... I'm changing my diesel van at 5yrs old as the warranty is up, a new engine is over 20000 euro, a new gearbox over 10000 euro - a new battery is 20000 euro, except it has 8 years warranty (actually the diesel came with 2 years, I had to pay to increase to 5); "but you can't do road trips in an electric"... errr yes you can, I've already done a 6000km road trip, doing a 7500km road trip in a few weeks time; "it takes 2 days to charge"... find the right charger and it takes 20 minutes, when road tripping I stop every 2 to 3 hours to stretch my legs, use the bathroom, have a coffee and it's charged before I am; "you can't put the heating on when it's cold"... or variations on that one, yes it reduces range when it's cold, like a diesel or gas vehicle, in a really cold snap recently, with preheating the diesel to scrape of the ice, my diesel range went from 500km to 350km, a 30% drop, worse than the electric that loses about 20%; "new tech will be coming out that will be better, I will wait for that"... the wonderful thing about human progress is that it doesn't stop, at some point jump in and accept that the better thing you were waiting for will come out next week - too bad, at least you can experience the latest tech now; "but Toyota is against electrics and they're the biggest car company in the world"... they've been caught well and truly with their pants down, the future will be some form of electric tech, pretty much every single manufacturer in the world of cars, vans, trucks, site equipment is investing billions in electric - it will happen despite the negatives...
