Apollo hvlp in Cabinet Grade Clear

[Scott B.]

I run BM314 unthinned all day long 5 stage. It sprays and lays really well through both hvlp and aaa.

That's what they claim,5 stage turbine can spray latex all day.But why the demo guy thin his latex with 20% water for his demo?
I think that he wouldn't need to do so.
Can one of you post a close up picture of a latex finish with the Apollo HVLP sprayer?
Would really like to see the result of what the Apollo can do.
I am planning to expand my finishing equipment and still undecided witch route to take.

There a hundred reasons how things end up happening the way they do in demos at a show. Somehow, they had Behr, and for some reason (I would only guess product related, given the paint mfr), they probably had to thin that much. Behr is kind of a diy level product, probably formulated with little concern for how it will atomize. That would make sense.

As much as anything, they were probably thinning that much to keep from getting too heavy on paper on an easel, as that was probably the only spraying demo option they had or chose.

I personally don't have anything here in the shop that was waterborne through the Apollo. I shot 314 on a tie rack with a Proshot today though.

Although the apollo gets results that are visually appealing, its the experience and the feel that differentiate it.

Heres a still photo from the wb test we did on it in one of the above vids (the second one). This photo was when the finish was dry (all wet photos look great). Not a great "sight down" but the only example I have. Hopefully rich has some too. [attachimg=#]

 

[mastercabman]

Scott,
Thanks,looks good,but i was hopping to get some EXTREME close up
If you could,will that be possible?
Maybe Rich could do that if he can.I am bouncing around between getting a good HVLP system or getting a spray gun from CAT and a good compressor.
I usually use HI-BILD lacquer/pre-cat and post-cat CV but i would like to keep latex as an option.

 

[tiralie]

Rich:
The photo's of your projects look great! That door in particular looks superb.

That said, there are reasons to thin.  According to my understanding, it's all about the Zahn #4 ... the relationship between tip size, viscosity and time through the zahn #4 funnel (for the Apollo gun) determines if thinning is needed.  In my limited experience, i would agree that there exists an inverse relationship between using the product act full strength and thinning it up to a maximum of 20%.  I lack the experience to tell you how much thinning yields unintended consequences or adversely impacts sheen, durability, color, etc., but sometimes it's just plain necessary to get your medium through the gun, to atomize well, and to flow-out on the surface well.  That's what's so nice about having a 5-stage turbine ... Lots of power to atomize, and with a wide selection of tips, you can spray a lot o different viscosities without too much concern for thinning.  Bottom line: thinning is bad but is sometimes necessary and the general rule is to never exceed 20% for those products that can be thinned.  I'm looking forward to more opinions/experiences/responses...

The topic of thinning 20% and higher comes up often when users post projects sprayed with HVLP machines, and lots of folks seem to get good results but I think the jury is out on the long term utility of the finish.
I bought a CAT H20 gun and a good compressor and it's about 100% easier and faster to get the finish I want than with it than with the Fuji.

If I was only spraying shellac or clears all day I wouldn't hesitate to use or recommend a good turbine driven HVLP. For the odd touch up the Fuji works well on pigmented coatings like the 6500.

I use Target products and would not thin more than 10% if at all. That said I accidentally got some thinned 6500 on the side of my car (cleaning a brush) and it is very difficult to remove. Even after a year through winter salt etc I still see the odd spot here and there.  If I am using house/wall latex with my Fuji, I will thin with BM extender (518) up to 10% but it takes longer to dry, and I really don't like waiting (the ADD kicks in), so I avoid it.

P.S. I thinned the last two projects I posted by 20% (including the TransTinted urethane cabinet door, and Target Coatings EM6500 and SC9000 ... the first projects after buying the Apollo).

While I think, thinning EM6500 for a turbine does help to atomize it, I think it compromises the durability of the finish. I don't think SC9000 needs to be thinned at all for it to atomize, even using a 2 or 3 stage machine.

Atomizing was phenomenal and the booth eliminated the overspray dust from settling all over the project. I'm out of town right now but I'll try to remember to take a close-up photo of the glass-like surface the knock-down booth enabled.

IMHO, it's not worth buying a sprayer if you don make such a booth.

Agreed. Even a makeshift booth with a modest home fan vented away from the work surface improves the finish. For smaller projects, spraying outside also works well.

I'll try to remember to start another thread to detail my booth, and more importantly, my lessons.  It would be different if I did it again.  Sorry for going so off-topic... Best regards, Rich

You may want to consider adding your details Show me your (portable) spraybooths

Tim

 

[Scott B.]

The topic of thinning 20% and higher comes up often when users post projects sprayed with HVLP machines..

Sure does. It depends on the hvlp system, 3/4/5 stage, product being used, user skill level etc, but the pattern seems to be that users of non 5 stage systems have a really hard time with viscosity.

There are alot of reasons not to like reduction (I dont). We have done unintentional experiments on the direct impact of reduction. It happens the most in aaa work when the suction tube is in a bucket that comes up a quart short on the tail end of a spray batch. We will add water to the supply just to push the last of the paint through the hose, but the far back end of the hose will end up pretty well reduced and the biggest difference we observe in the finish is that sheen is reduced, which in turn would point to your questions about durability of the reduced finish.

With waterbornes, we will use non reducing additives to slick up the batch and reduce abrasion on the pump and tips.

 

[mastercabman]

The topic of thinning 20% and higher comes up often when users post projects sprayed with HVLP machines, and lots of folks seem to get good results but I think the jury is out on the long term utility of the finish.

That's what i'm thinking too.Most paint store that i talked to said that if you have to thin with water,use a little.I think it is no more than 1 cup/gallon.That's more like 5-6% not 20%
And based on my experience with latex and HVLP i have to believe that.

Tim,what type of compressor are you running with that CAT?

 

[tiralie]

Tim,what type of compressor are you running with that CAT?

I don't have room for a stationary compressor but I needed a minimum 3 horse power pump to generate enough CFM for the gun (11 cfm @ 29psi) . The SPEEDAIRE Air Compressor, 240 V, 3.0 HP, 20 Gal Tank does the trick. I have a 10 gallon tank as additional storage but really the compressor generates enough CFM and pressure even over 100 ft. of 3/8" hose to spray anything as long as I require. I also use a CAT filter/dryer.
Tim

 

[Scott B.]

Tim,what type of compressor are you running with that CAT?

I don't have room for a stationary compressor but I needed a minimum 3 horse power pump to generate enough CFM for the gun (11 cfm @ 29psi) . The SPEEDAIRE Air Compressor, 240 V, 3.0 HP, 20 Gal Tank does the trick. I have a 10 gallon tank as additional storage but really the compressor generates enough CFM and pressure even over 100 ft. of 3/8" hose to spray anything as long as I require. I also use a CAT filter/dryer.
Tim

Your shop sounds well thought out, Tim. I'd love to see some pictures of it.

 

[junk731]

Mastercabman

Another second for compressor and CAT guns for everything but Latex house paint. I use mainly Target and General finishes for everything I can. I use a 5hp Omega 20gal. PK 5020. Great portable compressor for the price. When I have to spray that latex house paint through a gun I use my Devibiss Trans-tech gun and a 2 quart pressure pot. The latex is diluted about 10% with water and Floetrol. I hate using House type paints, they're soft, dry slow and really not made for spraying.

John

 

[tiralie]

Your shop sounds well thought out, Tim. I'd love to see some pictures of it.

It's a secret lair, it cannot be photographed. Seriously it's not much really. Just a bunch of dusty (now used) equipment standing around waiting to be abused.
You have reminded me that I'm way behind in posting projects and WIP so I will try to do some soon and you will get a sense of the space.
Like many things, our imagination makes it out to be much more than it really is.
tim

 

[Scott B.]

Your shop sounds well thought out, Tim. I'd love to see some pictures of it.

It's a secret lair, it cannot be photographed. Seriously it's not much really. Just a bunch of dusty (now used) equipment standing around waiting to be abused.
You have reminded me that I'm way behind in posting projects and WIP so I will try to do some soon and you will get a sense of the space.
Like many things, our imagination makes it out to be much more than it really is.
tim

Dude...deep.  [big grin]

Seriously, though, I have been reading your insights for many months. I always look forward to them and would enjoy seeing your set up.