Are Festool router bits green?

[bluezomo]

Well, first I did not pay «100 bucks» but €245 and the offer on Toolnation had a 33% discount, i.e. the original price is set at €380. Secondly, I did not know that Festool does not have any router bits in this price class.

the offer is here:https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/to...-set-im-systainer-sysfrees.html?sqr=fräserset

This offer is in my viewpoint leaves the field of «clever maketing» and has to be seen as fraud.
«Fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair [...] gain». The appearance of the website is intentionally done in a way to suggest that this is a set of Festool router bits.

Betrug: «Eine Täuschung über Tatsachen muss zu einem Irrtum des Opfers führen, dieser Irrtum muss eine Vermögensverfügung auslösen, die wiederum einen Vermögensschaden entstehen lässt.»

The question is rather, if it can be proven that Toolnation had this intent. They can claim that they like the colour green, that it matches the systainer colour, etc. and that they never stated that the bits are Festool.

 

[luvmytoolz]

We've had similar cases over the years in OZ like this, and generally it's considered deceptive advertising, and illegal. If these were sold by a local company, Festool I'm pretty sure based on past cases would have a strong position in court.

 

[Coen]

There are plenty of sellers that sell *random stuff* in *Festool Systainer*.

 

[Michael Kellough]

Well, first I did not pay «100 bucks» but €245 and the offer on Toolnation had a 33% discount, i.e. the original price is set at €380. Secondly, I did not know that Festool does not have any router bits in this price class.

the offer is here:https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/to...-set-im-systainer-sysfrees.html?sqr=fräserset

This offer is in my viewpoint leaves the field of «clever maketing» and has to be seen as fraud.
«Fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair [...] gain». The appearance of the website is intentionally done in a way to suggest that this is a set of Festool router bits.

Betrug: «Eine Täuschung über Tatsachen muss zu einem Irrtum des Opfers führen, dieser Irrtum muss eine Vermögensverfügung auslösen, die wiederum einen Vermögensschaden entstehen lässt.»

The question is rather, if it can be proven that Toolnation had this intent. They can claim that they like the colour green, that it matches the systainer colour, etc. and that they never stated that the bits are Festool.

That stretch. The word Festool does not appear anywhere on that page until you enlarge the photo of the Systainer.

A quick search of that site brings up only one other router bit set. 15 (instead of 50) CMT bits cost more than 50% more than the green set. That’s gotta tell you something.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

I'm a little mixed on this, especially since there is no location for the OP. Very few genuine Festool bits are even available in the NA market, definitely no 50.
That, along with the green color, which might seem right, but definitely isn't, would be the first clues.  All of the coated bits that I have seen are black. The big 50mm rebate bit is silver and the solid carbide bits are raw. Festool "green" is an indicator of a function (knob, lever, switch, etc)

Anyone could buy the official Festool Systainer for router bits and put together a "package".
I seem to recall at least one or two sellers doing that with sandpaper assortments?

I don't think I would go as far as calling it a scam. Festool users would know better and the unfamiliar wouldn't care one way or the other. If it offered at a price-point that would be more inline with what Festool would actually sell a set like this, then it would be a scam.
As it is, this looks like deliberately crafted wording, not likely the usual Chinese stuff.
Trickery? maybe, but not exactly fraudulent.

 

[Cheese]

That 2nd one can't be right? The mark for 'insert up to here' is at a spot that has already a groove in it.

Nope Coen, that is the correct depth setting mark. The unusual thing is that the "groove" you mention is actually 2 relief pads machined on each side that hold the carbide inserts. However, there is no reason for those machined pads to extend that far down on the router bit shaft and the machining is not what I consider to be at the typical Festool quality level. Hmmm... [scratch chin]

Of the next 2 items, the first is the instruction sheet packaged with the router bit and the second item is a page from the Festool router bit catalog.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

 

[Coen]

That 2nd one can't be right? The mark for 'insert up to here' is at a spot that has already a groove in it.

Nope Coen, that is the correct depth setting mark. The unusual thing is that the "groove" you mention is actually 2 relief pads machined on each side that hold the carbide inserts. However, there is no reason for those machined pads to extend that far down on the router bit shaft and the machining is not what I consider to be at the typical Festool quality level. Hmmm... [scratch chin]

Of the next 2 items, the first is the instruction sheet packaged with the router bit and the second item is a page from the Festool router bit catalog.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

Yeah, but it will never hold it correctly if actually inserted it up to there as the collet will clamp on a piece of the shaft that isn't cylindrical anymore.

 

[jeh]

Well, first I did not pay «100 bucks» but €245 and the offer on Toolnation had a 33% discount, i.e. the original price is set at €380. Secondly, I did not know that Festool does not have any router bits in this price class.

the offer is here:https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/to...-set-im-systainer-sysfrees.html?sqr=fräserset

[member]bluezomo[/member] Festool or not it is still a good deal and I think you will find the router bits are good enough and maybe even better than you think. Even if they have a 1/2 life of a Festool bit you still have made out. I have found that some off the cheaper bits on Amazon are more than sufficient and in fact I've never been disappointed when I bought a $20 bit versus the same that is $50.

 

[Crazyraceguy]

Festool or not it is still a good deal and I think you will find the router bits are good enough and maybe even better than you think. Even if they have a 1/2 life of a Festool bit you still have made out. I have found that some off the cheaper bits on Amazon are more than sufficient and in fact I've never been disappointed when I bought a $20 bit versus the same that is $50.

That may indeed apply to some situations, especially hobby or other minimalist users, with the lesser used bits. Let's be real about it, many of the bits in these big sets never get used at all. However, the most commonly used bits, even for those users, are not likely to be satisfactory in the long run.
With heavier users, this is important from the beginning.
Like pretty much everyone, I have some cheap bits too, but they see very little usage. The bits that get heavy use are all "name brand" that have enough carbide on them to be resharpenable, or they are insert type. Most of mine are Amana, Whiteside, or Lee Valley (8mm shank)

OTOH, a hobby user may not be interested in that. If they don't have easy access to a sharpening service, that extra carbide (and expense) may not benefit them. It might just be easier to replace them.

 

[Frank-Jan]

Well, first I did not pay «100 bucks» but €245 and the offer on Toolnation had a 33% discount, i.e. the original price is set at €380. Secondly, I did not know that Festool does not have any router bits in this price class.

the offer is here:https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/to...-set-im-systainer-sysfrees.html?sqr=fräserset

This offer is in my viewpoint leaves the field of «clever maketing» and has to be seen as fraud.
«Fraud is intentional deception to secure unfair [...] gain». The appearance of the website is intentionally done in a way to suggest that this is a set of Festool router bits.

Betrug: «Eine Täuschung über Tatsachen muss zu einem Irrtum des Opfers führen, dieser Irrtum muss eine Vermögensverfügung auslösen, die wiederum einen Vermögensschaden entstehen lässt.»

The question is rather, if it can be proven that Toolnation had this intent. They can claim that they like the colour green, that it matches the systainer colour, etc. and that they never stated that the bits are Festool.

Personally, I don't think this is fraud, but it does not matter. If you placed this order as a consumer and not in the name of a company, you can return it within 14 days, and officially you don't have to give a reason, so no need to prove anything. (Consumer protection for "distant sales"), but on the website I read they do ask to fill out a reason for the return, but a simple "product did not meet my expectations" will probably suffice. It is also stated that you have to pay for the returnshipping yourself.
https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/umtausch-und-rueckgabe

/edit: Just scroll down to the part that says "Widerrufsrecht"

 

[bluezomo]

Festool or not it is still a good deal and I think you will find the router bits are good enough and maybe even better than you think. Even if they have a 1/2 life of a Festool bit you still have made out. I have found that some off the cheaper bits on Amazon are more than sufficient and in fact I've never been disappointed when I bought a $20 bit versus the same that is $50.

That may indeed apply to some situations, especially hobby or other minimalist users, with the lesser used bits. Let's be real about it, many of the bits in these big sets never get used at all. However, the most commonly used bits, even for those users, are not likely to be satisfactory in the long run.
With heavier users, this is important from the beginning.
Like pretty much everyone, I have some cheap bits too, but they see very little usage. The bits that get heavy use are all "name brand" that have enough carbide on them to be resharpenable, or they are insert type. Most of mine are Amana, Whiteside, or Lee Valley (8mm shank)

OTOH, a hobby user may not be interested in that. If they don't have easy access to a sharpening service, that extra carbide (and expense) may not benefit them. It might just be easier to replace them.

That hits the point.

My choice for this «Festool set» was against a Technocraft set in a similar price range but only about 20 bits (https://www.galaxus.ch/de/s4/product/technocraft-oberfraesersatz-fraeser-10226699) or at half price with the same amount of bits (https://www.galaxus.ch/de/s4/product/technocraft-woodworker-fraeser-5974944).  The first set is rather quality the second the cheap one for the hobby user.

Now, it looks like that I got the cheap set for the double price ...
(it's not a tragedy, I can use the bits and parade the Festool systainer to show off ... but I would definitely not have bought the set if I had known that the bits are generic)

 

[bluezomo]

...
Personally, I don't think this is fraud, but it does not matter. If you placed this order as a consumer and not in the name of a company, you can return it within 14 days, and officially you don't have to give a reason, so no need to prove anything. (Consumer protection for "distant sales"), but on the website I read they do ask to fill out a reason for the return, but a simple "product did not meet my expectations" will probably suffice. It is also stated that you have to pay for the returnshipping yourself.
https://www.toolnationschweiz.ch/umtausch-und-rueckgabe

/edit: Just scroll down to the part that says "Widerrufsrecht"

Well, sending the parcel back would cost me ~€50. And as I opened the parcel and tested one bit, Toolnation might even reduce the refund further. All this would take time and -- if you check the reviews for Toolnation -- there is practically no way to reach them. I would be at complete mercy with the risk of loosing easily a hundred € for nothing ...

 

[squall_line]

-- if you check the reviews for Toolnation -- there is practically no way to reach them.

That's usually my first indicator that it's not worth buying anything from a given seller, personally.  I'm sorry you're going through this.

 

[Frank-Jan]

Toolnation's service has gone downhill badly a couple of years ago, it used to be very good.

It actually was the first webshop I ever bought a tool from. At the time it was the e-commerce part of a brick-and-mortar toolstore, which also had a branch not too far from where I live, so I could go there in case  I would need to bring the tool in for service.

During the pandemic they moved to a newly built bigger location, right before that move is when I think the problems with the communication and deliverytimes started. (and the bad reviews). I have since ordered a few things they had in stock, and delivery went fine, I had no need to contact them about those.

They also offer longer than manufacturer's warranty on a lot of tools (for example 5 years on festool), as included service, not a premium upsell.  I have had to send in a few festool tools for warranty repair recently, the drills went via festool directly, the vaccuum had a pick-up and return warranty, and I had to send to toolnation (all tools were still in 3 year period, festool and toolnation provided the shipping labels for the returns)

 

[Coen]

They also offer longer than manufacturer's warranty

They might just as well since it might take half a year longer to arrive at your door to start with.

The rule is; don't order anything that you need by *any date within 6 months* at Toolnation.

Also, don't move in said time window... cause this is what happens;
16th; order stuff, promised delivery (!) in 2-3 days
19th; nothing shipped yet, ask for change of shipping destination
22th; reply from Toolnation; 'no impossible, it's already processed and will be delivered asap'
26th; the date they actually shipped it
[dead horse]

 

[bluezomo]

well, the quality  ... [attachimg=1]

 

[xedos]

I've gotten those kinds of cuts with premium bit from Whiteside and Amana on certain material.

For that pic to be useful you'll have to compare it to a cut with another bit of exactly the same type from another manufacturer.

 

[Coen]

well, the quality  ... [attachimg=1]

Without any more context... can't comment.

 

[Michael Kellough]

I've gotten those kinds of cuts with premium bit from Whiteside and Amana on certain material.

For that pic to be useful you'll have to compare it to a cut with another bit of exactly the same type from another manufacturer.

Agree. Looks typical of a cross grain cut in softwood with an ordinary router bit. If you used a down cut spiral you wouldn’t get the fringe but the bottom would be fuzzy.

 

[bluezomo]

This 60-degree angle is definitely not straight! Joke aside, the quality seems to be ok for €4 per piece ...View attachment 1[attachimg=1]