Are we being ripped off?

[peter halle]

This thread is going off the rails.  Obviously the original poster- by their own acknowledgement in the post - knew that this was going to be of those kind of threads - so please don’t feed into it.  He asked about all tools - not just Festool products.

Consider purchases prior to buying.  Weigh the advantage versus the cost.  And once done, use and enjoy your decision.

Peter

 

[aloysius]

The only possible way - at least in the pricing context - that you're being "ripped off" is if you actually pay "too much".  Nobody's forcing you to.  There's always going to be a cheaper alternative.  There's also often a better alternative;  occasionally more expensive, too.  A high price is not a ripoff if you choose to pay it:  it's just additional expense.

Where I think a product can be a "ripoff" is when it doesn't perform as promised.  It just hurts even more when the product is expensive.  I've felt that way about the purchase of a particular company's jigsaw, linear sanders (I stupidly bought 2) & mini multi-purpose "4-in-one" sander.  Frightful tools that were premium priced yet didn't perform anywhere nearly as satisfactorily as I either expected nor, more seriously, as advertised.

The former expectation failure is nobody's fault but mine.  A sort of "idiot tax" rather than unrealistically unrealised expectations.  It's pretty stupid to purchase an inadequate tool for the task, but the purchaser (me) must wear the blame.  The latter, performance failure, however is down to the manufacturer, & can be justifiably described as a "ripoff".

In summary:  I don't believe there are any pricing ripoffs, just performance ripoffs.

It's not as if there aren't excellent, even superior, alternatives available these days.  To continue purchasing products from a producer with a history of inadequacy (whatever the price-point) in the vague hope that perhaps the newer model will be "better" is just another example of the Sunk Cost Fallacy.  It's just dumb to double down.

Either pay the price or cut & run.  It's your money, your decision, your risk.  Caveat emptor.  Don't blame the producer or manufacturer when it's really nobody's fault but one's own. 

 

[MaineShop]

This debate seems a little silly to me in the context of the cost of Festool. As I mentioned above for us as a small business these tools often make a lot of sense and the cost is perfectly in line with other stuff we use. I understand that a lot of home hobby type woodworkers and weekend warriors love festool and why wouldn't you, its great stuff and can be a joy to use. But I feel it is naive to look at how the costs play out in terms of only that market. As a small business if we spend a couple thousand dollars a quarter on festool products then we are spending around what we spend on consumables in the shop, such as rags and saw blades, glue, brushes and such. It is hardly a major line item. And they are durable tools so they tend to last years for us.

The system approach is handy, while not a major selling point for us as we are not exclusive to one brand or another, but that system approach has had some value, and lead to us purchasing their stuff over some competition at times just to make things easier in the  job site trailer.

It could be called expensive for someone who does not make a living with their tools. At that point you are buying them probably because you enjoy using them or you want the quality, and why not, you are presumably doing this woodworking because you enjoy it. Rather then hire someone like me, if you are doing it a project yourself to save money over hiring a professional, I hate to break it too you but to get the same quality it is almost always going to be cheaper to hire the experience, or at least much faster.

I have no doubt homeowners are a nice large percentage of the addressable market for festool, but it is not the only target. There are tens of thousands of shops and companies like mine out there and we are spending thousands if not tens of thousands a year on tools and consumables for those tools. We are a major part of the tool market. And we are spending that budget year after year after year. Festool makes sense for companies like mine so I think as long as they can prove their value to professional users and businesses they will do just fine as a company and can set prices accordingly. If their quality drops, or their tools stop being slighty ahead in terms of features or capabilities then they will get dropped by professionals like a bag of hammers, there is very little brand loyalty in my business.

 

[AstroKeith]

I do think some of the respected responders to my original posting need to read it!

I didnt criticise Festool once. All my new power tools have been Festool and I am happy to pay their prices.

I highlighted simple pieces of cnc milled aluminium, for which we seem happy to pay sometimes many 100's of $/£
I also highlighted an example of a better made Chinese tool costing half a so called quality British one.

Personally, I think this thread is best stopped.

 

[DeformedTree]

I do think some of the respected responders to my original posting need to read it!

I didnt criticise Festool once. All my new power tools have been Festool and I am happy to pay their prices.

I highlighted simple pieces of cnc milled aluminium, for which we seem happy to pay sometimes many 100's of $/£
I also highlighted an example of a better made Chinese tool costing half a so called quality British one.

Personally, I think this thread is best stopped.

So, to be honest, when you were talking about the plans and mentioned "Quangsheng"  I had no idea what that was, as I don't follow planes.  I made no connection to it being from china.  Could be just another European tool company I've never heard of.

With that said, there is nothing about something made in China that would imply lesser quality or even that it can't be higher quality. The issues with stuff being made is generaly not one of quality, they can do what ever level of quality they want, same as stuff made in any country.

But on something like hand planes, you are now off in the world of artwork, not tools.  While they were once the way things are done, they are now a tool for people who just want to be retro/oldschool or own some work of art of a tool.  This means their pricing is completely disconnected from reality.  When a brand is selling stuff not because of performance, etc, but completely based on name/status symbol, don't try to think about pricing. Further there will be companies selling products that meet or exceed the quality/performance for a fraction of a price.  A 40 dollar watch from wal-mart does the job just the same as some 10,000 dollar mechanical watch, it's not about price/performance/function when it comes to the mechanical watch.

Festool is in a hard spot,  in the US, even people who do construction/woodworking can easily not have heard of them though they are getting more generally known, but even still, they are niche.  But the items they make that were special, have competition over time.  More track saw options out there, more tools with dust collection.  They very well will have some issues with this, the bad news is this could mean bad cost cutting, the same that has impacted many products.  Other stuff it's easy to ignore festool prices since buying their stuff makes little sense, like their drill stuff and cordless stuff.  You can buy very good tools that do the same for a fraction of the price. Yet festool will keep selling stuff and at high prices because their will be folks who just want festool  (how many milwaulkee/dewault impact drivers can you buy for the price of the festool?)

 

[MikeGE]

I do think some of the respected responders to my original posting need to read it!

I didnt criticise Festool once. All my new power tools have been Festool and I am happy to pay their prices.

I highlighted simple pieces of cnc milled aluminium, for which we seem happy to pay sometimes many 100's of $/£
I also highlighted an example of a better made Chinese tool costing half a so called quality British one.

Personally, I think this thread is best stopped.

I did read, and I think understand, your thread.  What I didn't understand is why you created a click bait title for a complaint about an ordinary market reaction to supply and demand.

To answer the title of your thread, I can't think of a single time where I thought I had been ripped off following a voluntary purchase of anything.  My interpretation of being ripped off is when an item purchased turns out to be unfit for purpose, and it doesn't matter if the cost was $5 or $5K.

Concerning the content, I own a lot of Incra, Woodpeckers, and TSO products, most of which appear to be made from commonly available materials and manufactured with machinery that is within my financial grasp to purchase and knowledge to program.  I do not doubt that given the time I could make something that would be an adequate substitute to meet the immediate need.  However, in each of these cases the path of least resistance was to throw money at the problem and make it go away so I could use my irreplaceable resource, time, to better use.  I have never thought I was being ripped off as a result of any of these purchases.  Some of the items have been one-trick ponies, but I still value them and do not regret the purchase.  Given the same circumstances, and knowing what I know now, I would make the same decision without regret.

The barrier to entry for these products is low.  Buy some 6061-T6 aluminum stock, a modest CNC machine on the used tool market, an anodizing setup, and get on with production.  You can skip the anodizing process and contract out for this.  You might even consider skipping the material purchase and just contracting out to an engineering firm for the manufacturing using your design.  This leaves the fulfillment of the orders, which is easy to arrange as well.  I would think it would be a simple matter for a successful company based in Florida to ship product from a warehouse in Michigan and never touch anything other than a computer keyboard.  All that appears to be required is the vision to see a market void, the skill to identify the sources to fill the void, and the marketing talent to promote the product.

I wonder if a similar conversation ever happens on the other FOG (Ferrari Owner's Group).

 

[mino]

Could you please point out to me where exactly anybody DECIDES anything here in this thread?

...

Funny thing about a free country with a market economy is, we don't have just two choices. We're not obliged to either agree to everything or shut up.

If you think that having a bit commentary on a companies pricing means the same as being in favour of a central planned economy, then you're going way over the speed limit here, and you just flew out of the bend and crashed. Things are not so black and white.

The points you raised about multi million companies etc. are political/emotional points and have nothing to do with the topic. And they are even misplaced as I tried to point out.

Apologies, but being a person who thinks this through I was trying to make it clear that there is no "wrong price" in market economy bu definition. The *only* exception being monopolies where there is not market to set the price balance.

There is however an ideological and economical concept where cost+ is the only accepted scenario and where your arguments *would be* valid. And that concept is a socialist economy where not "profit" but "social need" decides prices. You may not have realized it, but that is what your arguing was pointing to.

My point being, that I know first hand those concepts of "fair prices" do not work. Period. They end with stagnation.
The problem is this is visible only after a generation or so - the negative impact of "fair" - is hideous as it takes time for it to destroy people's will to excel.

It is that reason why I believe an ability of a company to set arbitrary prices is absolutely fundamental.
It is the only known method which can provide adequate reward for the pioneers and innovators to push a society/technology/field forward.

 

[AlexThePalex]

Apologies, but being a person who thinks this through I was trying to make it clear that there is no "wrong price" in market economy bu definition. The *only* exception being monopolies where there is not market to set the price balance.

Nice of you to point this out. Less nice of you to keep on ignoring the fact there was a court decision where Festool was penalised for doing exactly that, creating an illegal monopoly with their price fixing. Don't put butter on both sides of your bread, you'll get dirty hands.

There is however an ideological and economical concept where cost+ is the only accepted scenario and where your arguments *would be* valid. And that concept is a socialist economy where not "profit" but "social need" decides prices. You may not have realized it, but that is what your arguing was pointing to.

I get the idea that since you came from one of "those" countries, you tend to judge everything from a very certain "anti"-perspective.

My point being, that I know first hand those concepts of "fair prices" do not work. Period. They end with stagnation.

You know nothing, John Snow. Again you think so black and white. Fact is, people complain about exorbitant prices everywhere. Especially in the most capitalistic countries you can find. It's our birthright.  [tongue]

It is that reason why I believe an ability of a company to set arbitrary prices is absolutely fundamental.
It is the only known method which can provide adequate reward for the pioneers and innovators to push a society/technology/field forward.

More black and white. It is the only way society can get forward? Like it is absolutely the only way and there are not hundreds of other in-between scenarios that can  also be advantageous?

Tell us, how does a man like Tesla fit into your theories? So many inventions but he died penniless.
Or Volvo, giving away their seat belt for free?
Or Elon Musk, doing the same with his electric car patents? You do realise Elon Musk completely and single-handedly pushed the electric car industry forward while all conventional car manufacturers showed a complete disinterest?
Or Jonas Salk, giving away his polio vaccine while people estimate he could have made $7 billion from it?

And what do you think of the live saving drug insulin, which costs €5 in Europe per shot, but $795 in the States? Should everybody just stay silent about that and ignore such extortion?

 

[peter halle]

We have not historically locked threads when the answers to questions asked did not suit the thread originator.  The forum guidelines offer guidance as to when threads may be closed.  There is leeway for the Moderators but honestly I think that our record of shutting down conversations as a whole versus the number of total threads is so minute.

Just keep it pleasant.

Peter

 

[tjbnwi]

In my entire time of purchasing tools and equipment (55 years), I have only one piece of equipment that did not make me money. It's a 10K dollar boat anchor as far as I'm concerned. It's also the last time I'll ever make a purchase based on the general concenious of others.

I test TSO products. The amount of time and money Hans and Eric spend developing new products and improving existing products would drive the average person to insanity. All of that needs to be recovered for the company to be healthy.

You have a choice to buy a product or not. I you choose to make the purchase it probably has a vaule greater to you than its price. No company can "rip you off" if you don't buy their product---plain and simple.

Your other choice, if you feel items are over priced become their competitor, you'll either fail or succeed, wholey on you.

Tom

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.

our record of shutting down conversations as a whole versus the number of total threads is so minute.

Just keep it pleasant.

Peter

As minute as the seconds in an hour, I'd say.

I was actually surprised that one time, there was this poster who kept attacking one of the Moderators, but the posts were not locked or deleted. Eventually, I think the poster removed his entries on his own.

 

[mkasdin]

Yes we are being ripped off... but I have a shopping problem when it comes to systainers. Also green paint and green plastic costs more to produce? If you want to feel like you’re getting robbed go buy an aircraft like a Cessna 172sp, 182sp, Cirrus SR-22 G5, etc. Purchase parts for them after you’ve done something stupid or by accident no fault of your own. Festool charges hundreds more for their tools. In aviation add a zero - you pay thousands more.

If you’re still not convinced look at the prices of Mafell tools, until recently they were much higher across the board. With Festool you pay for a system, the other tools, Makita, Dewalt milfwaukee you pay for lesser quality. I do own some Yellow tools and Makita tools, where it’s cheaper than the alternative (ie kapex) but probably not as precise.  The Dewalt planer is a great tool with sharp blades. It’s the same reason that a Mercedes Benz costs more than a General Motors. The ride (user experience) is better in the euro mobile. Festool in most cases is best in class, yes it costs money, that’s why I still don’t have an OF1010, DF500, etc, etc....

 

[waho6o9]

"Are we being ripped off?  "

No

Make some sawdust and have some fun.    [eek]

 

[grbmds]

If you can make the jigs you want to buy yourself and are satisfied with the results of the jigs you make, then do it. I imagine, if this is true for you, then you would feel ripped off.

While I have made a number of jigs over my years in woodworking, both simple and more complicated, I tend not to want to spend a lot of time making jigs. So, sometimes I buy a jig or fixture or accessory because I just want to use it and I know it is made specifically for the tool I own. For example, for squaring my MFT rail to the fence, I bought the Woodpecker MFT Square. Was it expensive? Of course it was. However, it works every time and it gives me complete confidence my MFT rail is as square as possible to my MFT fence. For  that, I was more than willing to pay Woodpeckers for the MFT Square. (I even dropped it on my concrete shop floor once and Woodpeckers repaired it good as new at no cost to me except to ship it to them. That was worth the price alone.)

So, it's all perspective I think. If you think you're being ripped off then you should find another alternative; make the jig or look for an alternate jig on the market. Many times, though, you get what you pay for. If I want something accurate and precise and high quality and will use it a lot, then I have no problem paying Incra, Woodpeckers, or even Festool's prices.

 

[ChuckM]

For me, it's usage. If I use something all the time, I'm willing to pay for it at a "rip-off" price. Hence:

SawStop PCS (no room for ICS) - literally every project
DF500 for all projects unless the joinery is done by hand (dovetails, that's) (the need for a DF700 may be under 5% for what I do; if it's 20% or more, I'd get an XL as well)
Kapex (used just less than the SawStop)

No Festool routers. Why? Most edging and profiling (beads, say) are done by hand tools. Routers are used mostly for cutting grooves, occasionally circles, and hinge mortises. Any Festool routers would be underused in my shop. So they're "rip-offs" to me if I buy them.

 

[mkasdin]

Yes, you're being ripped off, with everything you buy. The bigger the company that produces or sells it, it the bigger the margin.

No. Profit margin is typically large on small volume, unique, luxury, brand name, and accessory items. Or combination of thereof. Think of accessory cup holder for your Ferrari made by Tiffany or ink cartridge for your printer [mad]. Yeh, especially the last one.
Giants like Honda, McDonald's, or Amazon have tiny profit margins.

No doubt profit margin on ETS125 is smaller than on Festool rail square. Once they trap you with basic tools they squeeze you dry with the accessories, because they can.  [big grin] I see no ill will in that, customers do it voluntarily. Except printer ink, that one is pure evil  [mad].

printer ink is a billion dollar business. Festool isn’t making billions of the Granat sandpaper.... theres a lot of overhead, manufacturing, r&d, labor rate, shipping, materials, support staff, Management, leases, patents, advertising.... somewhere at the end of the rainbow is a profit margin?? I’m not sure if you’ve run a small business or started one, but it makes no sense to “turn a dime,” after a days effort. Unless you are in China-land, where they can rub 2 pennies to make a dime. And the ship the crap to the USA and sell it in a WallyWorld, Amazon, or Chinese Freight Company. When you reverse engineer stuff and have peasant wages, you can fundamentally pass the buck.