Astra Coated Router Bits?

[onocoffee]

I see quite a few people online talking about Astra coated Whiteside router bits from Bits & Bits. Hype? Or worth the effort to get?

 

[Packard]

I tried to find out what “Astra coated” really is.  There appears that there is not a coating called “Astra”.  “Astra” is a company in India that makes many types of coatings, several of which are proprietary.

“Astra coated” is not a meaningful statement, though manufacturers that use an Astra-made coating on their tooling claim it reduces friction.  No word on the durability, coating thickness, or other properties.

This from Astra (the manufacturer):
https://www.astrachemicals.com/

Astra Coatings Ltd. was founded in 1997. Astra® is an ISO 9001:2015 certified global leader, engaged in the manufacture, marketing, and servicing of specialty metal treatment chemicals for a wide variety of applications. We manufacture, import & distribute sustainable and world class metal surface finishing chemicals which are used in paint shops and the general metal finishing industry. Chemicals manufactured by Astra Coatings Ltd. are approved by number of multi-national companies world wide.

The head office is located in New Delhi, capital of India, manufacturing at Khushkhera, Bhiwadi, Rajasthan, administrative and sales office are located in Gurugram, Haryana, (automobile hub of India). Astra® operates a full-service laboratory at Bhiwadi, conducting routine quality control tests.

 

[onocoffee]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] Here's what Bits & Bits has to say about it. I guess this Q is corollary to the bents discussion - seems that a number of the woodworking influencers like to tout both Bits & Bits and the Astra coated (Whiteside) bits.
https://bitsbits.com/bits-bits-astra-coating

 

[Packard]

I still have my doubts that it can do everything it claims to do.

(But I was the guy who thought autofocus in a camera was a hoax.)

On the other hand, the active ingredient in Ozempic seems to cure all diseases known to man and helps you lose weight while it works.

I’m going to reserve judgement at this point.  (And how would you measure the improved feed rate on a router?  Does it work better at milling machines’ feed rates (much slower spinning spindles), or better at router speeds with the high spin rates? 

Or are the improvements best laid at the feet of the placebo effect?

 

[luvmytoolz]

To my mind coatings on cutters are more beneficial for use with CNC or milling machines, as they mostly are designed to help stop them gumming up during use with specific materials and provide a smoother result. Some help keep the edge sharper longer too.

That's also why some coatings shouldn't be used with machining certain metals.

For run of the mill ad-hoc and general router use, I'd consider the massive extra cost some manufacturers charge for coated bits a waste of money over conventional carbide tipped cutters.

 

[Muttley000]

[member=74278]Packard[/member] …seems that a number of the woodworking influencers like to tout both Bits & Bits and the Astra coated (Whiteside) bits.https://bitsbits.com/bits-bits-astra-coating

This tells me everything I need to know When people they aren’t paying for an opinion talk, I’ll listen.

 

[Cheese]

Do these advertisements look familiar?

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

I try to approach this stuff from a technical standpoint because nothing else matters in this instance...

As Packard earlier referenced, the Astra HP coating is an undefined coating process with undefined coating providers that provide undefined technical facts as to what the process is or how it is deployed on tooling.

That pretty much sums it up for me. If you won't tell me what processes were used, what deposition layers were laid down, and refuse to give me just the basic sauce of the recipe...well no thanks. There's just a large part of the conversation that's being left out.

The Spectra coating on the other hand is an established coating developed in Switzerland & Germany and for sale on the international market.

 

[woodferret]

It'll be TiSiAlN.  It's developed by SHM and marketed by Platit?  Personally I view it as a gimmick for woodworkers.  The TiAlN standard bit looks dull and grey in comparison to the rainbow colors.

Edit: I guess they've licensed it out to various manufacturers.  Doesn't matter though, it's still lipstick.

 

[jeh]

[member=44099]Cheese[/member] - you could not have summed it up any better.

 

[woodferret]

I'll also add that for handheld woodworking, an uncoated but is fine.

 

[onocoffee]

Thanks all. This is why I turn to you guys for practical field-proven advice.

I see quite a lot of these YouTubers talk about these coated bits from Bits & Bits - touting their praises while having their banners on their walls, and it just strikes me as questionable. From everything I've heard from local woodworkers, Whiteside are some of the best bits out there, do they really need a coating to make them, somehow, better? I don't do CNC work, so there's no advantage for me. Plus, I prefer to support my local Woodcraft.

 

[Vtshopdog]

Semi off topic but I find periodic application of Boeshield T9 to blades and bits really helps limit pitch buildup on all cutters and thus heat at the cut interface.  Improves cut quality too.  (doesn't make fancy rainbow colors on the bits though...)

I spray the stuff in all sorts of other places in my life, bike chains, door hinges, automotive, nuts and bolts etc.  Handy to have some around.

Maybe they'll sponsor me for this post??
[big grin]

 

[Packard]

It'll be TiSiAlN.  It's developed by SHM and marketed by Platit?  Personally I view it as a gimmick for woodworkers.  The TiAlN standard bit looks dull and grey in comparison to the rainbow colors.

Edit: I guess they've licensed it out to various manufacturers.  Doesn't matter though, it's still lipstick.

You can get those rainbow colors as a simple consequence of heat treating.

This old revolver was blued.  Blueing added marginal (very marginal) corrosion protection.  It penetrated the metal so no dimensions got changed.  The fitment of revolver parts require far tighter tolerances than semi-automatics, and as of the 1980s (the last time I was read up on the subject) they all required hand honing and fitting to function properly.

As far as I am aware, bluing added no other virtues to the steel.  It was just a modest amount of rust protection and the gun had to be oiled frequently to remain rust free.

 

[woodferret]

Different blued.*

edit:
Here's a cross-section of how AlTiSiN is deposited.  The various laminations are pretty thin and given how the angle is, reflects light in varying degrees.  We get rainbows.

[attachimg=1]

* I guess technically you cay say it is the same, as the heat induced bluing is the formation of the 'single' oxide layer in varying thickness.  The hotter it gets, the thicker the layer.  The change in layer thickness there gives the coloring.  However, the AlTiSiN layers are suppose to be more consistent, and it's the underlying layers that you see.

 

[luvmytoolz]

[member=82312]onocoffee[/member] As with all tools there's cheap quality and good quality router bits. With my CNC I go through a lot of cutters, never actually wearing them out but breaking them one way or another, so I buy cheap 1 and 2 flute straight and Vee TCT cutters in large quantities.

Small profile cutters like cove, roundovers, rebate cutters, etc, I also generally buy the cheaply available ones as for these small routing tasks I fail to see any benefit in the more expensive ones. Sure a 4 flute roundover is going to give a smoother result in use, but at 4-6 times the price over a 2 flute, the end result is the same. So unless you're going to stick to one or two sizes and use those specific sizes a real lot, there's no perceivable value in my opinion for the more expensive ones.

Where I do pay for the good quality brands like Carbitool, CMT, Whiteside, etc, are for panel and large profile cutters, this is where a difference is very noticeable in use and the end result.

 

[greg mann]

The fact that it is Whiteside promoting this is significant, even if the information we can gather on the actual coating is sketchy. They make quality tools to begin with and must have decided that coatings will bring some additional value.

Coatings have been wildly effective in metal machining, far beyond initial expectations. Doubling or tripling tool life is quite common, and usually at higher speeds and feeds. I would not expect the same for woodworking as the challenges are different but time will tell. The equipment for coating processes is quite expensive and the skill set to do it properly is challenging.

 

[Cheese]

Beautiful Colt Packard...I wish I owned one of those.  [smile]  Not because of its value but rather because of its beauty. Pieces of steel machined beautifully are a pleasure to look at and enjoy whether they are guns, motorcycles, automobiles, watches or just plain pieces of material...from aluminum to Delrin...machining done well is worth enjoying.

Heck, I think a blanchard ground flywheel can be a pleasure to look at.  [big grin]

 

[onocoffee]

Small profile cutters like cove, roundovers, rebate cutters, etc, I also generally buy the cheaply available ones as for these small routing tasks I fail to see any benefit in the more expensive ones. Sure a 4 flute roundover is going to give a smoother result in use, but at 4-6 times the price over a 2 flute, the end result is the same. So unless you're going to stick to one or two sizes and use those specific sizes a real lot, there's no perceivable value in my opinion for the more expensive ones.

This is reassuring - as I recently bought some American Vermont 1/4" shank Pattern and Trim router bits recently!

 

[luvmytoolz]

Small profile cutters like cove, roundovers, rebate cutters, etc, I also generally buy the cheaply available ones as for these small routing tasks I fail to see any benefit in the more expensive ones. Sure a 4 flute roundover is going to give a smoother result in use, but at 4-6 times the price over a 2 flute, the end result is the same. So unless you're going to stick to one or two sizes and use those specific sizes a real lot, there's no perceivable value in my opinion for the more expensive ones.

This is reassuring - as I recently bought some American Vermont 1/4" shank Pattern and Trim router bits recently!

Most of routing successfully to my mind isn't quite so much as being any specific cutter dependant, as it is also as much a case of building up the experience in knowing how to work with the grain in multi directions, where to approach the cut, and when to use a conventional and/or climb cut to avoid tearout and give as smooth a result as possible.

As a general rule of thumb, as you go up in cutter size you'll usually see a bigger difference in the results cutter quality. I frequently use a big CMT door panel set, with the panel cutter around 90mm diameter, in my OF2200 it easily and smoothly handles full depth cut in hardwood like a hot knife in butter.

However if it was a cheaper cutter, I doubt it would be as smooth in use, and it wouldn't be advisable to use such an aggressive cut in one go.

 

[ear3]

Don't know about Astra, but I can attest to the life extension qualities of the coating process for the Spektra bits by Amana.  I started using them in my Shaper Origin a year or so ago, and definitely noticed that they lasted longer than non-coated bits on the same machine. 

I see quite a few people online talking about Astra coated Whiteside router bits from Bits & Bits. Hype? Or worth the effort to get?