Bandsaw Blade Brands, Models, Widths and TPI?

[Dan Clark]

Folks, thanks for the feedback.  But I need more...

The 14-12 is set up and I've used both the 1/2" and 1/4" blades on it.  And have encountered three issues...

First, when I got it, there was a LOT of vibration.  After talking with Laguna Tech support, it looks like part of the issue is the top tire is was mis-installed and there was a lump in part of it.  You could see the thickness varied as the wheel turned.  I pulled off part of the tire and re-stretched it, and that reduced the vibration a bit.  (Laguna is sending me a new upper tire.)

But it appears that the bigger issue is the wheel bearing nut was not tightened.  I could unscrew the nut with my fingers.  When I snugged the nut down a bit, a lot of the vibration went away.  Question, how tight should that wheel nut be?  Completely locked down?  Just snugged down?  Loose?

Second, the upper and lower wheels are not aligned.  When the blade is in the center of the upper wheel, it's on the left edge of the lower wheel (when looking at it from the front).  Is this normal?  How can this be fixed?  Is this related to the wheel bearing nuts being loose?

Third, the weld on the 1/4" blade is misaligned.  The top of the weld is about 1/16" inch to the left of the of the bottom of the weld (when looking at it from the front).  So the blade shifts and makes a clicking sound every time the weld hits the wood. I tried filing down the weld a bit, but it didn't help.  This seems like a bad blade to me.  Is this normal?  Should I get a replacement? 

I like the saw, but I need to get past these issues.  I'd appreciate any help and suggestions.

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[MrToolJunkie]

Folks, thanks for the feedback.  But I need more...

The 14-12 is set up and I've used both the 1/2" and 1/4" blades on it.  And have encountered three issues...

First, when I got it, there was a LOT of vibration.  After talking with Laguna Tech support, it looks like part of the issue is the top tire is was mis-installed and there was a lump in part of it.  You could see the thickness varied as the wheel turned.  I pulled off part of the tire and re-stretched it, and that reduced the vibration a bit.  (Laguna is sending me a new upper tire.)

But it appears that the bigger issue is the wheel bearing nut was not tightened.  I could unscrew the nut with my fingers.  When I snugged the nut down a bit, a lot of the vibration went away.  Question, how tight should that wheel nut be?  Completely locked down?  Just snugged down?  Loose?

Second, the upper and lower wheels are not aligned.  When the blade is in the center of the upper wheel, it's on the left edge of the lower wheel (when looking at it from the front).  Is this normal?  How can this be fixed?  Is this related to the wheel bearing nuts being loose?

Third, the weld on the 1/4" blade is misaligned.  The top of the weld is about 1/16" inch to the left of the of the bottom of the weld (when looking at it from the front).  So the blade shifts and makes a clicking sound every time the weld hits the wood. I tried filing down the weld a bit, but it didn't help.  This seems like a bad blade to me.  Is this normal?  Should I get a replacement? 

I like the saw, but I need to get past these issues.  I'd appreciate any help and suggestions.

Thanks,

Dan.

The clicking is most likely a bad weld - I have had that issue before and nothing will get rid of it. The nut should be tight - it is screwed onto a shaft with the bearing, so tightening will not cause any issue. Not sure of the Nm torque specs - that might be in the owners manual.

 

[JeromeM]

Folks, thanks for the feedback.  But I need more...

The 14-12 is set up and I've used both the 1/2" and 1/4" blades on it.  And have encountered three issues...

First, when I got it, there was a LOT of vibration.  After talking with Laguna Tech support, it looks like part of the issue is the top tire is was mis-installed and there was a lump in part of it.  You could see the thickness varied as the wheel turned.  I pulled off part of the tire and re-stretched it, and that reduced the vibration a bit.  (Laguna is sending me a new upper tire.)

But it appears that the bigger issue is the wheel bearing nut was not tightened.  I could unscrew the nut with my fingers.  When I snugged the nut down a bit, a lot of the vibration went away.  Question, how tight should that wheel nut be?  Completely locked down?  Just snugged down?  Loose?

Completely locked down

Second, the upper and lower wheels are not aligned.  When the blade is in the center of the upper wheel, it's on the left edge of the lower wheel (when looking at it from the front).  Is this normal?  How can this be fixed?  Is this related to the wheel bearing nuts being loose?

It is not normal it is bad quality control. It sounds as if there is a washer or spacer missing.

If you have a long enough straight edge you should see that the wheels are coplanar when the tracking is centred. If not then the should be adjusted (by shims or washers) until they are.

If you have a crowned tyre then the blade should run roughly in the centre of both wheels

If you have a flat tyre then the blade may be intended to run with the teeth off the tyre. However there are very few bandsaws that have flat tyres.

Third, the weld on the 1/4" blade is misaligned.  The top of the weld is about 1/16" inch to the left of the of the bottom of the weld (when looking at it from the front).  So the blade shifts and makes a clicking sound every time the weld hits the wood. I tried filing down the weld a bit, but it didn't help.  This seems like a bad blade to me.  Is this normal?  Should I get a replacement? 

It is not a bad blade, It is a badly welded blade, if they send a new one then you can get the current one re welded. And again bad quality control.

 

[Tinker]

Second, the upper and lower wheels are not aligned.  When the blade is in the center of the upper wheel, it's on the left edge of the lower wheel (when looking at it from the front).  Is this normal?  How can this be fixed?  Is this related to the wheel bearing nuts being loose?

It is not normal it is bad quality control. It sounds as if there is a washer or spacer missing.

If you have a long enough straight edge you should see that the wheels are coplanar when the tracking is centred. If not then the should be adjusted (by shims or washers) until they are.

If you have a crowned tyre then the blade should run roughly in the centre of both wheels

If you have a flat tyre then the blade may be intended to run with the teeth off the tyre. However there are very few bandsaws that have flat tyres.

Third, the weld on the 1/4" blade is misaligned.  The top of the weld is about 1/16" inch to the left of the of the bottom of the weld (when looking at it from the front).  So the blade shifts and makes a clicking sound every time the weld hits the wood. I tried filing down the weld a bit, but it didn't help.  This seems like a bad blade to me.  Is this normal?  Should I get a replacement? 

It is not a bad blade, It is a badly welded blade, if they send a new one then you can get the current one re welded. And again bad quality control.

Without going down to look, I remember when i first et up my BS, the blade did not track.  There is an adjustment to align the top wheel.  My only experience is with my BS, so I don't know how to align the Laguna.  I thing all bandsaws have and adjustment. 
It is not the same adjustment as tightening.
Tinker

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have owned 10 different BS.  From 14" to 36".

I have never bothered with making sure wheels were co-planer. 

All I cared about was where the blade tracks.

All had crowned rubber tires. 

Install band, add tension, spin wheels by hand and see where blade tracks, adjust tracking mech. on upper wheel (never mess with the lower wheel)

Once I think it looks good, I start bumping the power on an off until I like where it is.  Add more tension and cut wood.

 

[grbmds]

By no means am I an expert on bandsaws and wheel alignment. However, based on quite a bit of reading and questions to companies like Carter who specialize in bandsaw operation, the alignment of the wheels is secondary. The most important issues are a sharp blade, proper setting of the guides, and getting the blade so that the gullet is in the center of the tire. Tension, although necessary to make sure the blade tracks properly and doesn't wander, isn't as important as I originally thought it should be. Now, if the blade doesn't stay on the wheel(s), then there is definitely a problem. After you have taken care of the other items you mentioned, the blade should track properly. There is generally a way to adjust the alignment of the wheels, but they don't have to be perfect, for sure. I operated an old Sears bandsaw for years on which I drove myself nuts trying to align the wheels. It just wasn't possible. Although my current Rikon does a superior job to that old Sears, the Sears actually did an OK job regardless of the misalignment once I improved the guides, got them set properly, and replaced the belt with the linked kind.

You mentioned vibration . . .Any chance that is due to the belt and/or pulleys? I suppose the pulleys could be out of balance (although Laguna shouldn't have that problem). Are the pulleys aligned properly? Does the belt have any imperfections?

Hope you get it resolved. It is definitely frustrating when you get a new, expensive tool and it just doesn't work as it should. I'd certainly make Laguna stand behind it though.

 

[JeromeM]

I have owned 10 different BS.  From 14" to 36".

I have never bothered with making sure wheels were co-planer. 

All I cared about was where the blade tracks.

All had crowned rubber tires. 

If your band saws came correctly set up, yours clearly did, then that should be all you need to do.

Dan's however clearly didn't.
With the idler wheel nut shipped loose, a faulty blade, tracking on the front of the drive wheel and in the centre of the idler and a lumpy tire.

All of that suggests that more checking than usual is needed. Absolute co-planer wheels are not needed, but if they are out by a lot (½ inch + for example) then the blade can't ride roughly in the same location (usually the centre) of both wheels.

I was not suggesting that checking for co-planer wheels should be a usual thing. But since Dan's saw missed some of the usual quality control checks, it could easily have missed the alignment one too.

The usual check is to see if the blade will ride (track) roughly in the same place on both tires spun by hand then under power. If it does no further check is needed.

FWIW my band saw has flat tires and is designed for most blades to run on the front of the tyre not the centre. However as I said this is not usual.

 

[JeromeM]

Second, the upper and lower wheels are not aligned.  When the blade is in the center of the upper wheel, it's on the left edge of the lower wheel (when looking at it from the front).  Is this normal?  How can this be fixed?  Is this related to the wheel bearing nuts being loose?

It is not normal it is bad quality control. It sounds as if there is a washer or spacer missing.

If you have a long enough straight edge you should see that the wheels are coplanar when the tracking is centred. If not then the should be adjusted (by shims or washers) until they are.

If you have a crowned tyre then the blade should run roughly in the centre of both wheels

If you have a flat tyre then the blade may be intended to run with the teeth off the tyre. However there are very few bandsaws that have flat tyres.

Third, the weld on the 1/4" blade is misaligned.  The top of the weld is about 1/16" inch to the left of the of the bottom of the weld (when looking at it from the front).  So the blade shifts and makes a clicking sound every time the weld hits the wood. I tried filing down the weld a bit, but it didn't help.  This seems like a bad blade to me.  Is this normal?  Should I get a replacement? 

It is not a bad blade, It is a badly welded blade, if they send a new one then you can get the current one re welded. And again bad quality control.

Without going down to look, I remember when i first et up my BS, the blade did not track.  There is an adjustment to align the top wheel.  My only experience is with my BS, so I don't know how to align the Laguna.  I thing all bandsaws have and adjustment. 
It is not the same adjustment as tightening.
Tinker

There is usually no adjustment to align the wheels, that should be a factory setting. The adjustment is to allow the top wheel to to move out of parallel to the bottom, this is the way the tracking is adjusted.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

I have owned 10 different BS.  From 14" to 36".

I have never bothered with making sure wheels were co-planer. 

All I cared about was where the blade tracks.

All had crowned rubber tires. 

If your band saws came correctly set up, yours clearly did, then that should be all you need to do.

Dan's however clearly didn't.
With the idler wheel nut shipped loose, a faulty blade, tracking on the front of the drive wheel and in the centre of the idler and a lumpy tire.

All of that suggests that more checking than usual is needed. Absolute co-planer wheels are not needed, but if they are out by a lot (½ inch + for example) then the blade can't ride roughly in the same location (usually the centre) of both wheels.

I was not suggesting that checking for co-planer wheels should be a usual thing. But since Dan's saw missed some of the usual quality control checks, it could easily have missed the alignment one too.

The usual check is to see if the blade will ride (track) roughly in the same place on both tires spun by hand then under power. If it does no further check is needed.

FWIW my band saw has flat tires and is designed for most blades to run on the front of the tyre not the centre. However as I said this is not usual.

I think I put tires on all but one of those saws.  Most were taken apart, gone through and put back together. 

I have a pretty good understanding of what goes into getting a BS blade to track nicely. 

 

[Tinker]

quote >>>There is usually no adjustment to align the wheels, that should be a factory setting. The adjustment is to allow the top wheel to to move out of parallel to the bottom, this is the way the tracking is adjusted

 

[rljatl]

I know this does not address all of your issues, but everybody raves about this guy's setup procedures.

Band Saw Clinic with Alex Snodgrass

 

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen,

First, thanks for the feedback.  And I'm definitely going to review that video.

It is definitely a bad weld.  The blade is new from Rockler.  I'm going to see if I can get a replacement.  In any case, it's not an expensive blade.  I'm going to check out Lenox blades - maybe one of their 1/4" bimetal blades.

Regarding  the wheel nut, I talked with Laguna.  They said that it should be snugged down.  However when I did that, the wheels started binding a bit.  I.e. there was friction in the wheel.  It appears that the bearing is a two-part affair - an inner and outer bearing.  So I backed off the nuts to be just a little snug.

I'll be the first to admit that this could be a user (me) issue.  That said, it looks like there is something wrong with either the wheel(s) and/or the bearing(s).

To help Luis (my tech support guy at Laguna), I took some pics of the wheels and bearings, and posted them to my SmugMug tools gallery: http://danclark.smugmug.com/Other/Tools .  The last 7 pics should show the details. 

In addition, I took a quick video of the noise and vibration, and uploaded it to Vimeo: https://vimeo.com/113361560 . 

To rule out the blade, the pics and video were taken with the Laguna Pro King 3/4" resaw blade. (I just got it few hours ago.)  It's a very nice blade.  Even considering I have never resawed anything before and even with the vibration, the Pro King blade did an excellent job of resawing a piece of 6" tall 8/4 Oak in 1/8" slices.  Very even and straight.  Very nice blade and the resaw fence is excellent, IMO.  That said, the bigger blade seemed to increase the noise and vibration over the ¼” and ½” blades.  I snugged down the top and bottom nuts, and loosened them too.  That didn’t seem to make a difference.

Regarding the alignment issue, Pic #12 shows the top wheel with the blade more or less on the right side of the top tire.  Pic #12 is the bottom wheel.  As you can see the teeth are hanging off of the left side of the tire.

This is not good and definitely what I expected from Laguna bandsaws.  They are supposed to be premiere tools.

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Luis is sending me a replacement tire for the top wheel.  I hope that fixes the problem, but I'm a bit skeptical.

 

[JeromeM]

Talking directly to Laguna would seem to be your best course of action.

I would be very unhappy with the vibration you show in your video.

Over tight guides could be part of the problem, when you  watched the video you will understand. It is good for most band saws.

With my band saw the wheel nuts are tight, if doing that makes the wheels bind then I would be talking to Laguna about that as it doesn't seem right.

 

[Dan Clark]

Folks,

Here is a status update...

Laguna sent me a new tire.  It was insanely difficult to get it on.  I had to resort to bar clamps and bike tire levers to get it on.  With out the bar clamps pulling it, it would be impossible to get it on. 

Unfortunately it did not help.  While I was irritated before, now I'm becoming very angry.  I've tried everything...  Tightening and loosening the nut.  Changing blade tension from loose to very tight.  Adjusting the guides to the user manual specs, to very tight, to somewhat loose, to very wide.  Nothing has helped.

Including the saw and blades, I have over $1,300 invested in it.  While I didn't expect it to be perfect, I also did NOT expect these kinds of headaches!  I am extremely disappointed.

I wrote to Laguna tech support and gave them two options:

1) I am sending them both top and bottom wheels for repair/replacement.  When returned, they darn-well better be perfect, or

2) I'm going to get my money back.    This would be a MASSIVE disappointment and a major headache.  The 14-12 is exactly the saw I want and I was looking forward to it immensely.  Worse, I don't have the packing materials anymore.  (The foam interior was stuck to the box so I had to cut it up the foam and box to get it out of the box.)

I'll keep you updated. 

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Do you know of any other bandsaws (NOT Laguna) that give 12" resaw in a compact package?  I'm raising my budget to about $2,000.  Then I'll have to spend another $200-$300 for blades for a larger saw.  And it will probably be 220 volts, so I'll have to run additional conduit for a 220 extension circuit.

 

[Tinker]

Folks,

Here is a status update...

Laguna sent me a new tire.  It was insanely difficult to get it on.  I had to resort to bar clamps and bike tire levers to get it on.  With out the bar clamps pulling it, it would be impossible to get it on. 

Unfortunately it did not help.  While I was irritated before, now I'm becoming very angry.  I've tried everything...  Tightening and loosening the nut.  Changing blade tension from loose to very tight.  Adjusting the guides to the user manual specs, to very tight, to somewhat loose, to very wide.  Nothing has helped.

Including the saw and blades, I have over $1,300 invested in it.  While I didn't expect it to be perfect, I also did NOT expect these kinds of headaches!  I am extremely disappointed.

I wrote to Laguna tech support and gave them two options:

1) I am sending them both top and bottom wheels for repair/replacement.  When returned, they darn-well better be perfect, or

2) I'm going to get my money back.    This would be a MASSIVE disappointment and a major headache.  The 14-12 is exactly the saw I want and I was looking forward to it immensely.  Worse, I don't have the packing materials anymore.  (The foam interior was stuck to the box so I had to cut it up the foam and box to get it out of the box.)

I'll keep you updated. 

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Do you know of any other bandsaws (NOT Laguna) that give 12" resaw in a compact package?  I'm raising my budget to about $2,000.  Then I'll have to spend another $200-$300 for blades for a larger saw.  And it will probably be 220 volts, so I'll have to run additional conduit for a 220 extension circuit.

Dan, with all of the problem you have already had, it seems to me it might not be a good idea to have any more parts sent to you.  The more you change yourself, the more ammo for Laguna to say that it has all been your fault.  Insist on your money back.  By this time, if it were me, I would be insisting on them paying the freight to send the machine back as well.

or get them to come and get it [mad]

No matter, there seems to have been so many things that have gone wrong, i really don't think it should be up to you to continue making binder twine and chewing gum type of repairs. 

Tinker

 

[grbmds]

Folks,

Here is a status update...

Laguna sent me a new tire.  It was insanely difficult to get it on.  I had to resort to bar clamps and bike tire levers to get it on.  With out the bar clamps pulling it, it would be impossible to get it on. 

Unfortunately it did not help.  While I was irritated before, now I'm becoming very angry.  I've tried everything...  Tightening and loosening the nut.  Changing blade tension from loose to very tight.  Adjusting the guides to the user manual specs, to very tight, to somewhat loose, to very wide.  Nothing has helped.

Including the saw and blades, I have over $1,300 invested in it.  While I didn't expect it to be perfect, I also did NOT expect these kinds of headaches!  I am extremely disappointed.

I wrote to Laguna tech support and gave them two options:

1) I am sending them both top and bottom wheels for repair/replacement.  When returned, they darn-well better be perfect, or

2) I'm going to get my money back.    This would be a MASSIVE disappointment and a major headache.  The 14-12 is exactly the saw I want and I was looking forward to it immensely.  Worse, I don't have the packing materials anymore.  (The foam interior was stuck to the box so I had to cut it up the foam and box to get it out of the box.)

I'll keep you updated. 

Regards,

Dan.

p.s. Do you know of any other bandsaws (NOT Laguna) that give 12" resaw in a compact package?  I'm raising my budget to about $2,000.  Then I'll have to spend another $200-$300 for blades for a larger saw.  And it will probably be 220 volts, so I'll have to run additional conduit for a 220 extension circuit.

Dan,

Sorry to hear all that. I would say that, if I were in your shoes, I'd contact Laguna or the retailer you bought the saw from and arrange to get it back to them for a refund or, if a refund isn't something they want to do, a completely new saw. You are completely right that, for what you spent (even if it was much less), you should get a product which performs as advertised. This doesn't seem to.

Second, as for other bandsaws, I can only speak for the one I have now; a Rikon Deluxe 14". I believe it does have 12" (or possibly 13") resaw capacity, is 110V (1 1/2 hp motor), and, when the guides and all is set properly does a great job resawing with a standard 1/2" 3 tip blade (from Carter but other blades will do just as well I'm sure). I bought my Carter blades at a woodworking show a little cheaper than normal but Carter's blades aren't very expensive. If you want a bit more power and maybe a bigger table, Rikon also has saws above this level and an 18" saw that probably performs better than mine. These saws are all much less than $2,000 and, if you look, they are sometimes on sale from various retailers. I got mine for around $800-$900 from a Woodcraft store when they were on sale.

So, I'm a hobby woodworker and don't know how this Rikon would stand up in everyday production work, but Michael Fortune, a well-known furniture maker has repeatedly said you don't need the most expensive bandsaw. In fact, he may still use a Ridgid bandsaw in his production shop. He did when I took a class from him a few years ago. So, this all means that you should not have to spend $2,000 for a saw, especially these days, when there is a lot of competition for your bandsaw business and more bandsaws then ever on the market that should work for you. Good luck with Laguna.

 

[wow]

Dan:

Your experience doesn't sound right to me at all. I have several tools from Laguna and I have not had any trouble with any of them.

It sounds like they started out trying to help you fix the problem in the field - which may have been the right place to start - but it's not working. Sometimes a machine just has to go back to the factory. It's frustrating for both parties, but that's just the way it is. I'd ask for a resolution that includes them either replacing your machine with another one, or getting yours back to the factory for a complete repair & recertification.

I know Torbin personally from my days 'in the business', and I'm pretty sure he wouldn't consider your experience typical OR acceptable, and would want to help you resolve it. I'd suggest you call and ask to speak with him personally. Then explain what you've been through - as calmly as you can. It's OK if your frustration comes through! Just try to act the way you'd want a customer to act with you.

Give them the chance to make it right. I'll bet they'll make arrangement to make things better with you in short order.

In fact, I'd be SHOCKED if they didn't take care of you?!

 

[Tinker]

My BS is a Reliant that is no longer made.  It has only a 1hp motor and no DC.  Every once in awhile, it loads up with dust and just plain stops the blade.  I have resawed as much as 10" walnut, but it is a verrrryyyyy slow process.  The blade, even when brand new, drifts. I had stated on an earlier post that the drift was as much as 1/4" over 24" of travel.  I checked the other day and it is actually a drift of 1 washer over about 18" of travel.  That is, what, 1/16th inch over 18" of travel.  Not too bad when I can set the fence for the drift about 2 or 33 years ago and it is no better and no worse than when i finally figured how to set the fence.  I don't care for the saw, mainly because it is so underpowered, and it has the slight drift problem whether new or old blade.

AND, that saw cost me only $500.  I guess I can live with that.  grbmds has the Rikon Delux 14" and is happy with it.  I think i have been looking at that for a year or so.  It looks like a good saw.  whichever Rikon i have been looking at uses the same length blade as i am using in my Reliant.  With the extra blades I have hanging on the wall, I would be all set if i got it. 

Dan, i agree that you don't need a $2000 BS unless it is something you are using everyday.  Of course, you can deduct the reliability of advice coming from one who has spent $$$ in the thousands on tools that he only gets to play with for maybe two months of any year. My BS gets used no more than a couple of hours per year >>> on a busy year.  (That's BS as in Band Saw.  Of course BS could stand for something else  : )

Tinker

 

[Dan Clark]

Gentlemen,

Again thanks for the feedback.  The Laguna folks have a support case # set up and I'm working with them.  Also, the manager of the Rockler Seattle store (Lawrence) was very supportive when I called him.  He said that, between the store and Laguna, they would make this right.  And I sent him links to the bandsaw pics and vimeo video. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Thanks,

Dan.

 

[wow]

Gentlemen,

Again thanks for the feedback.  The Laguna folks have a support case # set up and I'm working with them.  Also, the manager of the Rockler Seattle store (Lawrence) was very supportive when I called him.  He said that, between the store and Laguna, they would make this right.  And I sent him links to the bandsaw pics and vimeo video. I'm cautiously optimistic.

Thanks,

Dan.

Dan:

Great news!

I'm sorry I didn't jump in sooner, but the title of this thread didn't cause me to read it completely until last night. If my advice helped in some small way, I'm happy. And if it had nothing to do with my advice, I'm STILL happy - for YOU!

[thumbs up]