Bathroom remodeling

[bassman00]

My wife and I are looking to remodel our bathrooms.  One is a tiny half bath and the other is a full bath.  The house was built in 1925 and had 2 1/4" wide oak floors throughout.  The subfloors are 6-7" oak on a 45 degree diagonal.  All appears to be original and have lots of "character".

Both bathroom floors are wood and are level with the hall floors.  We want to add tile floors to both bathrooms.  I assume we'll have to cut out the oak flooring to lay the backer board and tile.  I don't know how thick the oak flooring is but I assume the new flooring will be taller than the original.  Is that acceptable?  Does the backerboard come in different thicknesses?  I guess to break up the height difference we could add a little threshold to separate the two levels?

We plan on starting with the small 1/2 bath to get the hang of tiling and replacing a toilet and sink.  And most important, if I screw anything up we'll still have the full bath to use. 

Finally, to bring this on the topic of Festool, can either the TS55 or jigsaw be used to cut tile?  Hey, I have the TS but this would be a great "reason" to get the jigsaw, right?  ;D

Thanks,
PaulD

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

My two cents on using a jigsaw with a tile blade: didn't work for me at all.  VERY VERY slow going.  I sprung for a tile saw (about $400) and I feel like I have gotten my moneys worth out of it three bathrooms later.  Plus, my family members have used it.  If you can't justify the tile saw, rent one.  Especially if you are going with a higher quality thick tile.

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul,

I'm remodeling my bathroom even as we "speak".  There are lots of issues to be considered with laying tile.  For a lot of good information, check out the John Bridge tile forum:http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?f=1.  Very good people and they get multiple new DIY remodelers every day.  You can check out my project thread at:http://johnbridge.com/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=3779.

Regarding the issues...

First, you want a tile saw, NOT a wood saw of any kind.  I bought a Dewalt D24000, but what you need will depend on lots of factors.  Second, you'll need to ensure that your subfloor and joists are solid and appropriate for tile.  I jacked up and sistered the joists beneath my bathroom, and ripped out and replaced the subfloor from the joists up.  Third, if you are "vertically challenged" floor-wise, you might want to consider using Ditra.  That's what I'm using and a lot of people in that forum use.  It's only about 1/8" thick and should help with the height problem.  Also there are ways of dealing with the transition.

Also, regarding the sub-floor, I recommend using a sawzall with a long, demo blade.  The major issue you'll have is not damaging any of the pipes, wires, ducts, etc under the floor.  You can use your TS55, but you have to be careful not to hit a hidden nail.  But that will only get you with an inch or so of the wall.  You still need to remove the last inch which is where the sawzall comes in.  You bend the long blade against the 2X4 at the bottom of the walls and cut through the subfloor.  It goes pretty fast and you can remove all of the subfloor. 

Good luck,

Dan.

 

[Ted Miller]

Paul, As mentioned by Dan take up the old wood flooring with a sawzall. The house being this old and wood in a bathroom I am sure there is some rot or water damage to the subfloor if there is a sub floor. If the flooring is 3/4" tough and groove then it will most likely be nailed right to the floor joist. You will need a new subfloor for the tile and yes by all means purchase a tile saw. You can get them in 7" and this will be fine for the two jobs you are doing. Tile saws you can spend anywhere from $150.00-300.00 for a decent 7-7 1/2" blade. They are easy to set up and make sure you keep the small pump submerged when its running...

 

[bassman00]

Oh well.  I was hoping to use these projects to "justify" more tools...  :-\

Dan, are you saying I should cut out the subfloor too?  I was figuring on just removing the flooring but leaving the subfloor to build on.  Is there a problem leaving the current subfloor in place?  Obviously, this would make removal more difficult but both bathrooms are pretty small.  I wouldn't be surprised if the drain pipes are the original lead pipes.  I know the feeder lines are all copper as we had some shower work done shortly after we moved in a little less than 5 years ago. 

I checked the flooring and subfloor thicknesses and they are each 3/4" for a total of 1.5".  The subfloor is 6-7" wide pine or fir.  I don't know the joist centers of the 2nd floor bathroom but for the entire first floor it's 16".  The joist size is 9.5x2" for the first floor too.  Looks like pine or fir.  Same as the subfloor.

Would it be possible to put the Ditra over the current subfloor and with tile, etc keep it close to 3/4"?

I'll check the links you posted. 

Thanks,
PaulD

 

[bassman00]

Ted,

I guess I was typing my response when you posted.  I also checked a bedroom on the 2nd floor and the subfloor is 3/4".  If there is no rot or water damage, should I still pull up the subfloor?  I guess, I'm worried that cutting it out could cause some stability issues.  Call it paranoia.  :-[

Thanks,
PaulD

 

[Dan Clark]

Oh well.  I was hoping to use these projects to "justify" more tools...  :-\

Dan, are you saying I should cut out the subfloor too?  I was figuring on just removing the flooring but leaving the subfloor to build on.  Is there a problem leaving the current subfloor in place?  Obviously, this would make removal more difficult but both bathrooms are pretty small.  I wouldn't be surprised if the drain pipes are the original lead pipes.  I know the feeder lines are all copper as we had some shower work done shortly after we moved in a little less than 5 years ago. 

I checked the flooring and subfloor thicknesses and they are each 3/4" for a total of 1.5".  The subfloor is 6-7" wide pine or fir.  I don't know the joist centers of the 2nd floor bathroom but for the entire first floor it's 16".  The joist size is 9.5x2" for the first floor too.  Looks like pine or fir.  Same as the subfloor.

Would it be possible to put the Ditra over the current subfloor and with tile, etc keep it close to 3/4"?

I'll check the links you posted. 

Thanks,
PaulD

Paul,

There are LOT of ifs here.  IF the subfloor under the flooring is in GREAT shape, and IF the subfloor is good quality exterior grade substrate (like plywood or OSB), and IF your joist spacing and unsupported length meet the minimums for the tile you want to install, and IF the subfloor is flat as a pancake, and IF there is no damage to the subfloor, then MAYBE you might be able to install tile like you want with not too much work. 

If I sound like I'm a massive cynic, you're right.  The kitchen and bathroom are the two most complex rooms in the house BY FAR.  When installing tile and depending on the tile size, shape, and material chosen, the complexity can increase by an order of magnitude (10X).  I want you to approach this with your eyes wide open and not get nailed (pardon the pun). 

In my case, I knew that the bathroom floor was WAY too bouncy to install anything but carpet.  Not stone tile, not porcelain tile, not even wood!  Carpet!  So I jacked up and sistered the joists.  Then someone on the John Bridge forum mentioned, "...just make sure that you don't have particle board sub-floor".  I thought, "Whew!  Boy am I glad I don't have particle board!"  "Hmm...  I never checked."  "Nah, I'm probably fine."  "OK, maybe I should check."    The garage ceiling was ripped out at that point, so I just went down, climbed up a ladder and flipped on the flashlight.  "Let's see...  Hmmm... That looks like... PARTICLE BOARD!!!  ARRGH!!!!"   

So I ripped out the entire sub-floor down to the joists.  But the joists were NOT flat.  So with Festool Planer and Makita Belt Sander, I spent two weeks planing and shimming them until they were flat (within 1/8" over 10' one way and 13' the other way.  Then I blocked the edges.  (Don't want the new subfloor edges flappin' in the breeze, do we?)  And FINALLY after weeks of work, laid down 3/4" T&G exterior grade plywood, glued and screwed to the joists.  (Did I mention that I had to sister three more joists?!?)  Then I laid down 3/8" ACX plywood.  Screwed but not glued BETWEEN the joists at quarter points.  Everything was offset appropriately.  Then I sanded the entire thing smooth with my Rotex with virtually NO sawdust.  (Did I mention how much I love my Rotex?)

At this point, I've built the shower stall, shimmed the walls to be flush ripped out the ceiling sheetrock and installed new, installed most of the plumbing, and am working on the electrical.  Did I mention that this is a BIG job? 

I'd like to offer one piece of advice - the number and ways that we can $crew up a bathroom is amazing.  So, plan and prep well. 

First steps are to...

Use the "Deflecto" calculator athttp://www.johnbridge.com/vbulletin/deflecto.pl.  The only one that's not obvious is the "Joist Length".  That is the maximum unsupported length of your joists.  You need to find the joists under your bathroom and then measure the joist length between the supporting walls or beams.  That will tell you how much deflection you will have.  Lots of deflection?  You either deal with it or not install tile.  Little deflection?  Then you're fine. 

Then join that forum, introduce yourself, explain your project, and ask for help.  They are great people.  EVERYTHING that I've learned about remodeling my bathroom came from that forum.  I know I was pretty ignorant about this sort of thing, but I had NO clue how little I knew.  (Now I KNOW how little I know.)  I'd be toast without them.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[bassman00]

Dan,

Yikes!  Wow.  I never would've guess all the planning needed to lay tile in a bathroom.  Eyes are definitely wide open now.    They don't mention any of this stuff in the DIY shows.  Wait until I show this to my wife.  I checked out that other forum.  Lots of reading to do.  I tried the link to your project but it took me to another thread.  Looking forward to seeing what you've done.

Since our plan is to start with the tiny half bath on the 1st floor, I can answer a lot of questions.  The 2nd floor bath will be tougher because it is located right above the entrance hall.  If the 2nd floor supports are positioned right over the 1st floor's, then I believe the span is around 10-12'.  We are in the very early planning stages.  I don't see anything starting for a few months, the earliest.  However, I want to have a comprehensive plan so once the work starts, it can go quickly and smoothly (yeah, right?  :-\ )  We don't want to move the location of anything.  Just want to replace the toilets, tub, maybe the sinks and tile the floor since it's wood.  The walls will stay, especially the plaster walls in the 2nd floor bathroom.  The only item decided, and that's probably subject to change, is the tile.  My wife likes the small ~1" tiles that are attached to a mesh.  I told her fine, but she handles the grout.  ;D  I would think that small tiles like that would be less likely to be affected by deflection.  Good assumption?

In the 1st floor bath, the joists are 9.5"x2" (yes, a full 2").  16" centers and the span is about 8-8.5'.  I put those into the Deflecto calculator and it appears I'm OK for natural stone.  The only issue I see, is below where the toilet was installed, they cut a joist and T'd it off.  It's sitting on the house sill and nailed to the next joist.  The drain pipe from the toilet and sink was probably the cause.  This work appears to be very old, possibly original as the wood used for the T looks to have aged the same as the other joists.  I don't see any rot or feel any soft spots in the subfloor.  I have complete access from the basement below.  In fact, it's right above my dust collector and shelving for finishes.

Also, outside of that bath is a tiled area of the kitchen that was added when the kitchen was remodeled probably within 10 the last years (we bought in May 2002).  That tile is level with the wood floor of the bath and is laid over the old sub floor.  Not what they used between the subfloor and tile though. 

Is it a problem that the subfloor is solid planks?  Can I lay, say 1/4" ply over them if they are not rotted or disintegrating and are relatively flat?  FWIW, I've yet to see any plywood or particle board in the construction of the house.  We did fine a spec sheet in one of the closets that listed the building materials and requirements from back in 1925.  Hopefully, we can find that as I believe it had the specs on the floors and subfloors. 

Thanks for your detailed answers.  Very much appreciated.

PaulD

 

[Ted Miller]

Paul, I see Dan told you what you needed to know. No two jobs are alike, I go to each one wondering the "ifs". Remodeling is one big "if". My thing "I have to see what I can't see" then I go from there. I never assume anything especially when it comes to floors...

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul,

Ted just supplied the best advice - "I never assume anything especially when it comes to floors...".  NEVER ASSUME ANYTHING!  Don't even assume that the advice you've received here is correct.  Check everything before hand.

With remodels, the number of possible variables constantly astounds to me.  Every time I think I've identified the issues, I find something brand new.    For example, I'm working on the electrical now.  When I ripped off the bathroom wall sheetrock, I saw a horizontal romex wire going horizontally from a wall fan switch box to a receptical box.  I assumed that it was providing power to the receptical. Dumb assumption... 

Last weekend I removed the cover plate from the receptical box and tracked down all of the wires (there were a lot in there).  So what function did that horizontal wire provide?  NOTHING!  It just dead ended in the receptical box! It wasn't connected to anything!    For months, I've been very careful to protect that stupid wire and it does NOTHING! Arrgh!   

There are a lot of folks in the John Bridge forum that are professionals at this.  Take out the top layer of floor down to the subfloor, take pics of the subfloor and post them on the John Bridge forum (post here if you'd like), and get their feedback.  Your subfloor could be fine.  Or, they might spot one little issue and you'd need to tear out everything.  It depends. 

Based on what you told me about your joists, it sounds like you won't have a problem with deflection.  Deflection will cause popping tiles and grout coming out. 

Regarding small tiles, I believe small tiles will be easier to install if the floor isn't perfectly flat.  The larger the tile, the flatter the floor has to be. 

Regarding the T-Joist, I'd have to see it first. 

Regarding my project link, projects in the John Bridge forum are threads. 

Rule number 1 on these projects is that you need to post pics.  A good way is to start a project thread in the John Bridge forum. Call it "Bassman's Small Bathroom Remodel" or something that makes sense.  Put all of your project posts and questions in that one thread.  Add lots of pics.  That helps folks understand your situation. 

Best regards,

Dan.

p.s.  I case forgot to mention it, post lots of pics.  ;D

 

[bassman00]

Ted - I'm not going to make any final decisions based assumptions.  BTDT too many times on other things.  I'll definitely open up and examine things before I act.  I'm just trying to get a handle on planning things out.  Especially with the 2nd floor bath.  It's the only shower we have so this can't drag on too long.

Dan - I found your thread on the John Bridge forum.  Wow.  You basically started from scratch there.  We're not planning on touching the walls.  I guess remodel is probably too extreme of a description.  More like an updating.  Just tiling the floor and the tub surround (there's some crappy plastic wall covering there now), replacing the toilet and possibly replacing the sink.  We're thinking of replacing the tub too.  The only reason though is the porcelain is wearing away and it's not as easy to clean.  I found a few companies that sell tub refinishing products that look good.  Any thoughts on those?  Does the refin last?  Definitely cost effective compared to a new tub and the probably plumbing changes that would accompany it.

I'll definitely be taking pictures to post here and starting up a thread on the John Bridge forum.  Thanks for the pointers so far.  Especially, the Deflecto calculator.  Turns out the tile my wife is leaning towards are 5 cm  Travertine stones on a mesh.

PaulD

 

[Ted Miller]

Paul, If you like you could open a few holes and then post some pics for more input form the great guys here.

Dan, I was putting some windows in the other day on a outside bearing wall. Roof was a hip and the pitch was maybe a 6 so not much load. So the owner lets me know where she wants the windows and I mark and start to cut into the stucco after checking the run of the ceiling joist. Well as you know plumbers have no appreciation for 2x4s when they are in the way. I cut an opening 46" wide x 52" high and there were no 2x4s!, I mean none is sight. Looking into the wall down to the bottom plate the plumber needed to vent the downstairs bathroom and removed and cut through 5 each, 96 5/8" studs, I mean hacked up. Well no way could I deal with that. So before I roughed out the windows I added a few more studs on 16" centers then added king studs, sills and cripples for my windows. Man I actually like to tear open stuff and really see what you can't see. I am still surprised by what I come across job after job...

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul and Ted,

Ted...  Two years ago, I thought remodeling would be "a bit of a hassle".  Now, having been "tenderized" somewhat, I realize that it can be a MAJOR nightmare.  My skills and knowledge have massively improved in the last 24 months.  At least now I understand how deep my ignorance STILL is.  Now, I pretty much expect the worst and still get surprised on a constant basis!  :

Paul...

One of the problems that I found was that "an updating" can quickly turn into "a major remodel" in a hurry.  I'm not trying to scare you (much), but checking and rechecking your bathroom situation and solution is critical.  As you remove fixtures, walls, and floor coverings, you uncover things that make your skin crawl.  For example...

When we remodeled our other bathroom, we did PRECISELY what you are planning to do.  However, we hired out some of the work.  One day, a carpenter we hired said, "Dan, let me show you something!".  So he walks over to the wall behind the sink and thumps the wall.  "Thud, thud."  Then he moves over about 12 inches and "Thud, Thud".  Then another 12 inches and "bonk, bonk".  I looked at him ??? .  He said you're missing a stud!      We got around it, but the first rule of remodeling is, "expect the unexpected!"

Think about this...  You said your tub surround has "crappy plastic wall covering".    And what will happen when you remove the covering?  Will the sheet rock behind it be pristine? 8) Oh, the sheetrock IS pristine? 8)  Gotcha!  It ain't code for back splash!  Ah, but they used green board?  8)  That's not code either!  8)  So, now you're starting to sweat.    So you'll probably need to 1) replace the sheet rock with Hardibacker or concrete board, or 2) cover the sheetrock with something like Kerdi (a great alternative for tile).  ;D  So you have a solution?  Maybe... 

How FLAT and PLUMB is the backsplash wall?  ???  Well, since they put up "crappy plastic wall", there is a fair probability that the original builder didn't care about the quality of the wall.  For tile, that puppy has to be flat and plumb or the tile job will look like garbage.  So, there's at least a 50/50 chance that the wall sheetrock will need to be torn out, the wall studs will need to be shimmed and planed, and the sheet rock replaced.   

And now let's talk about system and design interactions.  There are more of those than you dreamed possible.  When you replace the other fixtures, will the style match the tub?  How is the plumbing in the tub?  OK?  Need the tub plumbing fixtures replaced?  If it was me, I'd toss the tub and get a new one.  Compared to the cost of the other parts of the project, a new tub is relatively inexpensive.  If you need to fix or replace the tub plumbing, you may have to do it anyway.

When we redid the guest bathroom, we kept the tub and toilet.  BIG mistake.  We could have gotten decent ones from HD for a total of maybe $500.  And that's because we didn't want white.  If it's white, the cost is very modest.

Good luck.  Remember to start your John Bridge thread and post pics!  (And check and recheck and recheck and...)

Regards,

Dan.

 

[bassman00]

Ted - As I move from the planning to the doing stage, I'll do that.  Thanks.  I'm amazed that house you were working on didn't suffer any damage due to the lack of studs on a load bearing wall.

Dan - You're not scaring me at all.  Educating me is more like it.  The bathroom with the tub will be second in line.  This way any screwups or "tuition" on the half bath doesn't cause any major problems.  A fear I've had is as we open up the walls, we'll discover some major damage.  However, the feeder lines to the tub and shower faucets were redone a few years ago.  Access to those is from behind in a closet in the master bedroom.  No sign of rot or problems behind that wall so maybe we got a little lucky.

However, I can guarantee that the walls around the tub are NOT straight and flat.  No sheetrock and probably no green board.  Plaster walls in this house.  None are complete flat and straight.  So, I anticipated, taking those sections down to the studs.

For fixtures, that might be tricky.  The tub an old and big cast iron baby.  Nothing special in the design.  The plumbing from it works.  Kind of a funky setup for the drain but it works.  Only issue is the porcelain is all worn and pitted.  Not down to the CI but it's a bear to clean.  If we replace the tub, I'm quite sure we'd have to get a plumber in to adjust things.  Plus, I'd probably have to build out one of the walls as today's tubs are smaller.  I did some googling to see how those refinishing products work and the majority of what I've found has been positive.  Nothing too long term though.  I did learn that if we do have the tub refin'd, do it last.

The toilet will be gone.  It has a huge tank and I have 4 various sized jugs in there to displace most of the water.  The sink might survive.  It's in pretty good shape.  It's a pedestal model.  The bathroom is very small so we're limited in the sizes of fixtures we can use.  In fact, both baths are tiny.  I guess back then it was all utility and no luxury.

But, first up is the half bath.  I'll take some pictures of the joists below that and investigate things in more detail this weekend and post my findings.

Thanks,
PaulD

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul,

Ah, cast iron tub.  If it's in good shape except for the porcelain, that could be worth saving.  Regarding WHEN you have it refinished, you might want to go through work flow carefully.  I've never had a tub refinished, but...

I THINK that you'd want to get it refinished before you install the tile and maybe the backer boards.  On the one hand, if everything is completely done and then the tub is then finished, you might have issues with getting access to the entire tub.  On the other hand, if the tub was finished first, you might damage the tub during tile installation.  Tough call. 

Regards,

Dan.

 

[bassman00]

Dan - Everything I've read online states I should refinish the tub last.  Do everything except caulking around the tub.  Then refinish the tub.  The the final caulking.  The risk is damaging the refinish job on the tub as you demo and replace the walls/tiles/etc around the tub.

We did find that original spec document.  The subfloors are 7/8"x8" matched spruce or fir.  Interesting read as nearly all of the specs listed for the original build are still in existence 80+ years later.  I should visit city hall and see if the original plans are still on file.  Would love to see those too.

Thanks,
PaulD

 

[Dan Clark]

Paul,

Sounds like you have a good course for the bathtub painting.  Regarding the subfloor, definitely post this (plus pics) on the John Bridge forum.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[Jim Pieri]

Paul,
Another option especially for old out of level homes is to install a mud bed instead of using a preformed product as underlayment. Taunton has an excellent video "tileing floors" which describes the process. You will need an inch plus the thickness of the tile and thinset to go over an existing floor.

JP

 

[Eli]

As if there isn't enough to process, IMO a marble sanitary sill is a nice way to deal with a height difference bathroom/hallway, and looks nice in an old house.

 

[bassman00]

Thanks for the additional information.  I'm definitely filing this advice in the good stuff to know bin.  Unfortunately, roof and porch problems have taken over the bathroom budget so the bathrooms are on hold until those are completed and the funds accumulate again.

Thanks,
PaulD