Bespoke work vs bread and butter

[GOL]

Hi all
I've been watching the posts lately with regards members projects and also the scale of projects that some of you guys take on and do , it's a huge credit to see such projects take shape with the use of festool tools and skilled trades . I'm from Ireland myself and I'm sure some of the Irish guys will agree with me on this but the clients we cater for here are of a very cash strapped nation and a certain percentage think we should be grateful to get the work and the days wage , I love what I do wouldn't change it for the world but with a young family and trying to make ends meet its quite hard at times . I'm just wondering do the fellow members feel in the same situation at times and if so what routes and options have ye furthered your business to open up more of the market and try and expand in this current ecomic climate ?im not moaning about the situtation but I'm looking for past experiences and new approaches .im a firm believer that the harder you work and the more driven and focused you are that it possible to make it work but when you've a market of 80% wanting to knock you confidence and your price off a job and nearly tell you what you should charge you often wonder are people losing the running of themselves ?
Would love to hear people's opions and views  [blink]
Apologises to administration  if I posted this in the wrong section

 

[Nippychippy]

Hi gol ye we are the same here in dundee  we went to see a job for a big book case the guy told us what he wanted did a wee sketch he was like that's exactly what I was looking for it would of been made of 25mm mdf at 3m lengths which would of been a special order so he asked for a price my boss priced it on the sketch up model I did for it look great sent the price and the drawing of to him and we didn't get a peep from him no phone call or text all the time spent pricing and drawing  and he said that's exactly what he wanted  ???  I don't get it but then when you look on here some of  the stuff is amazing  I am the Sam as you GOL I would here what the others guys have to say on this thread  [embarassed]

 

[Paul G]

It's common to find people with eyes and dreams larger than their budget. Happens in all industries, nothing unique to carpentry or other building trades. Find ways to lower cost without selling yourself short and give people some options on materials or methods that gives different price points. Also consider charging ahead for design and discounting the cost if they do the actual job, helps weed out the folks who just want something for nothing.

 

[GOL]

It's common to find people with eyes and dreams larger than their budget. Happens in all industries, nothing unique to carpentry or other building trades. Find ways to lower cost without selling yourself short and give people some options on materials or methods that gives different price points. Also consider charging ahead for design and discounting the cost if they do the actual job, helps weed out the folks who just want something for nothing.

I can see your point there but with my work and name I've always tried to push quality and material to the best available or to suit budget but I don't believe in supplying cheap material to get work ie I always use 18mm carcasses with 3mm PVC edging the same with wardrobes or kitchens , I also use a good quality hinge instead of some of the cheap brands out there . With regards kitchens I'm a firm believer in a steel Blum made up drawers instead of cheap melamine ones and dura pol work tops , to see some of the shite that some fitters or cabinet makers use is unbelievable . Presentation and quality including smartly dressed in work gear , a clean van and a fully organised van with shelving and tools , is defently important to give the customer a good impression ,

 

[skids]

It's common to find people with eyes and dreams larger than their budget. Happens in all industries, nothing unique to carpentry or other building trades. Find ways to lower cost without selling yourself short and give people some options on materials or methods that gives different price points. Also consider charging ahead for design and discounting the cost if they do the actual job, helps weed out the folks who just want something for nothing.

Excellent advice .

 

[Rob-GB]

You are not alone buddy!
Times are still hard at the moment. All my work is word of mouth or me visiting joinery shops to offer my services and things are very tight.
I only post projects that are a bit different or maybe of interest to others, no point in posting about the few doors I installed or the bit of skirting board that came from the cheapest supplier.
The plethora of tv shows about dodgy builders etc are not helping the majority of fantastic craftspeople either, we all get tarred with the same smelly brush  [mad] Then you have those prospective clients who can't understand that a product made to measure with quality materials is going to be more expensive than a mass produced and frankly inferior product, made purely for profit not quality.
We just have to be true to our craft and hope they wake up to what is better.

Rob.

 

[Paul G]

It's common to find people with eyes and dreams larger than their budget. Happens in all industries, nothing unique to carpentry or other building trades. Find ways to lower cost without selling yourself short and give people some options on materials or methods that gives different price points. Also consider charging ahead for design and discounting the cost if they do the actual job, helps weed out the folks who just want something for nothing.

I can see your point there but with my work and name I've always tried to push quality and material to the best available or to suit budget but I don't believe in supplying cheap material to get work ie I always use 18mm carcasses with 3mm PVC edging the same with wardrobes or kitchens , I also use a good quality hinge instead of some of the cheap brands out there . With regards kitchens I'm a firm believer in a steel Blum made up drawers instead of cheap melamine ones and dura pol work tops , to see some of the shite that some fitters or cabinet makers use is unbelievable . Presentation and quality including smartly dressed in work gear , a clean van and a fully organised van with shelving and tools , is defently important to give the customer a good impression ,

I understand your principles perfectly. Not suggesting seriously compromising them, rather to give customers a choice that may save them a bit of money while still being a quality product. But also cover the high end, people can surprise you sometimes if they've been wanting something nice. In other words try to avoid the price wars, it's a race to the bottom.

The psychology of consumers can be very interesting. A lady friend was starting an in-home daycare for kids and thought she would start by playing the price war game and got zero clients after 2 months of trying. I suggested she change her approach and price herself at the top of the scale and with nothing to lose she tried it and was full up in less than a week. Same services but a completely different public perception of quality of care for kids.

This begs the question how do you become the go to guy for high end work in your community, the guy people can rely on and trust it will get done right. That's about building yourself as a brand and most folks don't do enough to support that aspect of their business. A friend has grown his renovation business through his church, he volunteers and does great work, people talk, the phone rings. He's stayed busy even in these tough times (our real estate market fell over 50%, an epicenter of the collapse in the US). But like I said he does great work, and he is a really nice stand up guy who goes the extra mile and treats people the way he wants to be treated, while another guy I know who is an arrogant jerk can't get work right now no matter what because he relies on desperate clients who will put up with his crappy attitude because they can't find anyone else. I say this not to judge you, I don't know you to make such a call, but rather am saying that attitude can make a huge difference.

 

[cje]

Excellent advice. I did the same in my trade (IT). Personal branding is very important. I built my brand by getting active on forums, spending a few hours per day. Maybe you could become active on a DIY forum/mailing list, or a forum that covers interior design/home decoration. Yes, you give advice for free, but when something gets too complex for the DIY guy/girl, it's important that the feel confident in asking you to complete the job, you, the nice craftsman who apparently knows his craft so well.

My hourly rate was very competing for a couple of years, and I got all sorts of crappy jobs. Then I started to raise my rate, within 1 year it was 3 times the rate used to be. Guess what, I got even more requests, now from high end customers, and I was able to pick out the really challenging gigs that would look nice on my CV.

Best, Karel

 

[kev carpenter]

A big part of being in business is getting a gut feeling who you give your precious time to when willing to give a price, i.e. if its internet lead i don't waste my time unless i have spare time, if i can get to it that day or give a ball park figure over the phone, how they talk on the phone and ask a few questions over the phone, so that you can tell that they aren't going to phone 10 tradesmen that day etc.

 

[Wooden Lungs]

Hi Gol, I know exactly what you mean when you see amazing projects being shown on here by members and thinking "Wow, I wish I was involved with that".
I think most trades now just knuckle down and do bread and butter work to keep the wolf from the door. Pre recession I used to be involved with some amazing projects and used to have to pinch myself sometimes. Then jan 2009 came and it was like a giant kick in the spuds.....all my work dried up and I had to let guys go. I firmly beleive things are on the up, although very slowly.

As far as besoke work goes I now fit it in around the bread and butter work as best I can. I think its how you project yourself to potential clients though. Its no use stomping around a building site moaning about the lack of interesting work when you really wanted to be in your shop making fancy cabinets etc!! You have to sell yourself as a besoke Joiner. With the work being thin locally you could make items for sale online. Yes everyone now wants a lot for very little because money is tight. If you cant move to find work, try and let people come to you through the web.

Get yourself a web site and try and drum up some comissions that way. Ireland has been hit very badly and its easy to lose hope when there is very little work around but beleive me as long as there are homes people will need tradesmen to build and repair them!!

 

[Jalvis]

Two things have really helped me in the last year.

1) Charge more not less.

This is a really odd psychological anomaly to me.  If you charge more less people negotiate the price and for some unknown reason believe that you know what your doing since the rate is high.

2) Not everyone deserves your time and that includes a detailed Estimate.

I dont Bid work for free.  Estimates are free and I don't give an estimate unless the person tells me what they think the said project might cost.  Most people are 50% of actual sale price in my area.  Its also good to know what you think the minimum possible cost might be and then state that as the lowest possible option before giving a written estimate.  For example If your looking at building a custom mantle and you think the minimum possible price is $2k then you should mention it to client upfront.....this alone can save a lot of time.

 

[jacko9]

While most working middle class people around the world have been doing poorly these last few decades on average, one might consider marketing to the "upper class" that have actually been doing quite well.

Jack

 

[farms100]

Two things have really helped me in the last year.

1) Charge more not less.

This is a really odd psychological anomaly to me.  If you charge more less people negotiate the price and for some unknown reason believe that you know what your doing since the rate is high.

2) Not everyone deserves your time and that includes a detailed Estimate.

I dont Bid work for free.  Estimates are free and I don't give an estimate unless the person tells me what they think the said project might cost.  Most people are 50% of actual sale price in my area.  Its also good to know what you think the minimum possible cost might be and then state that as the lowest possible option before giving a written estimate.  For example If your looking at building a custom mantle and you think the minimum possible price is $2k then you should mention it to client upfront.....this alone can save a lot of time.

generally I agree.

One major problem is cabinet makers don't really share financial information with each other.  established makers learned through their mistakes, and don't see why you shouldn't make the same ones they did. Personally I think its short sighted, and frankly I have no idea how to really fix the problem.  it's a leap of faith and I think would serve many of us in the long term.

a large percentage of part time, and start up shops don't have a good grasp of what to charge.  Some of it is naivete, underestimating the time it really takes to build a piece, others don't figure in overhead properly, insurance, power, shop tools and supplies etc.

One thing to do is charge assuming you rent a space have insurance etc.  Look aroudn the shop sometime and start totalling up your investment in tools you wil be really scared how much you have spent.

Everyone makes mistakes bidding. just know that a Good tradesperson should make more per hour than the guy at the local big box store.

a basement full of tools and a sign on your basement door will not bring bring in work. 

Always be willing to market yourself and your work. Surprisingly, many volunteer activities that i have done over the years has earned me business. People that have time to do volunteer work often earn good money. Be sincere about the volunteer work, and be  very classy about how you go about reaching out to potential customers.

almost all woodworkers have the fantasy they will only be hired to build museum grade work.  truth is your going to spend years building bookshelves, cabinets, repairing built-ins every day work

 

[Old School Carpenter]

When I first started, I would take any job no matter how well suited we were for it. It didn't take me long to discover that a tradesman gets the jobs he takes, If you take roof repairs, plastic siding jobs, low cost rental fixes, etc, etc, etc, those are the type of jobs you will be seen as qualified to do.

If you specialize in the work you would like to do, advertise for that work and avoid the jobs that don't pay, you will grow a business that provides for itself and you.

There are plenty of people who want to be your friend if they think they can get a deal on something, but if you are like most, you have plenty of friends, you need good paying customers. [smile] I would rather work for good customers who become my friends, than start giving deals to gain customers, its much harder to change your business practice after the fact.

Don't discount advertising,
Just think about your own habits, what do you do when you want to find something? You look on the internet,  [doh] people with money to spend do the same. You have to spend money to make money!

10 yrs ago all my work was word of mouth, I was on my own and I did ok, Now I turn away more jobs than I take, and I have 5 trucks to keep busy. Thank God and Google. [thumbs up]

Mike- If I wanted to work for free, my wife has a list [big grin]

 

[jacko9]

When I first started, I would take any job no matter how well suited we were for it. It didn't take me long to discover that a tradesman gets the jobs he takes, If you take roof repairs, plastic siding jobs, low cost rental fixes, etc, etc, etc, those are the type of jobs you will be seen as qualified to do.

If you specialize in the work you would like to do, advertise for that work and avoid the jobs that don't pay, you will grow a business that provides for itself and you.

There are plenty of people who want to be your friend if they think they can get a deal on something, but if you are like most, you have plenty of friends, you need good paying customers. [smile] I would rather work for good customers who become my friends, than start giving deals to gain customers, its much harder to change your business practice after the fact.

Don't discount advertising,
Just think about your own habits, what do you do when you want to find something? You look on the internet,  [doh] people with money to spend do the same. You have to spend money to make money!

10 yrs ago all my work was word of mouth, I was on my own and I did ok, Now I turn away more jobs than I take, and I have 5 trucks to keep busy. Thank God and Google. [thumbs up]

Mike

+1

Jack

 

[sancho57]

When I first started, I would take any job no matter how well suited we were for it. It didn't take me long to discover that a tradesman gets the jobs he takes, If you take roof repairs, plastic siding jobs, low cost rental fixes, etc, etc, etc, those are the type of jobs you will be seen as qualified to do.

If you specialize in the work you would like to do, advertise for that work and avoid the jobs that don't pay, you will grow a business that provides for itself and you.

There are plenty of people who want to be your friend if they think they can get a deal on something, but if you are like most, you have plenty of friends, you need good paying customers. [smile] I would rather work for good customers who become my friends, than start giving deals to gain customers, its much harder to change your business practice after the fact.

Don't discount advertising,
Just think about your own habits, what do you do when you want to find something? You look on the internet,  [doh] people with money to spend do the same. You have to spend money to make money!

10 yrs ago all my work was word of mouth, I was on my own and I did ok, Now I turn away more jobs than I take, and I have 5 trucks to keep busy. Thank God and Google. [thumbs up]

Mike

+1

Jack

Word, I told a bud the other day, I dont need any friends, If I wanted a friend , Id buy a dog.

 

[Tinker]

Good quality, word of mouth and good attitude can go a long towards building a business.

Many moons ago, i had figured a fireplace/chimney job that had some construction problems.  Even tho the plans did not spell out the solutions, i estimated as if i were going to "do the job right".  i lost the job, but i knew i did not want my name attached to it if it were not done properly. 

About six months after completion, I got a call from the owner (I had given my price to the contractor.  The owner did not know me until he called so much later).  It seems his chimney was leaking all over his living room.  I told him I had estimated the job originally and i knew exactly why it was leaking.  I said, "I can fix the problem.  I will tell you right up front that it will cost you a heck of a lot more for me to fix the problem than what was saved by taking the lowest price."  A couple of thousand $$$ later, he had a dry chimney and he could get to working on the interior repairs to his walls and ceiling. That was over 30 years ago.  there are new people in the house by now, but i go past about 4 or 5 times a year and have never seen any signs of further repair other than new shingles on the roof. 

That repair job did get me further work, not only for that owner, but several of his friends.  I eventually did a lot of work in landscaping for the same group of people as well.

My thoughts for GOL is to try to keep to a quality in your work.  Times are bad, but they will improve.  your good work will get you more good work.  Junk will always be junk. That gets more junk to do.
Tinker

 

[basimerly]

Jalvis and Old School Carpenter, you make some awesome points. Well, a lot of you do, but in particular you two have hit it dead on.

The great brands of the world ( that have sustainable business plans) got that way via pricing to make money, not compromising their quality, AND advertising heavily while they did it. Plenty of guys and company's have gone out of business forgetting about one of those three.

Look at the greats in craftsmanship industry's. Brooks Brothers, Orvis, LL Bean, Red Wing ( the American made product lines), John Deer, Snap On, Festool, Johnston and Murphy- just to think of a few company's that still care devoutly about their craftsmanship and are also successful financially. On the newer front we have Patagonia and Under Armor. These all have pitfalls and are absolutely arguable, but I'm just making some case study examples to point out some basics.

Then their are plenty of others that stop caring about one of those three points. Ever use a Stanley 600 picture framing vice from early 1900's? It's as if God said let their be the perfect tool. But you will never find one in a store today because they forgot about craftsmanship.

Ever drool over a piece of Hitchcock Furniture ? Their work still blows my mind. They would actually dye the legs of tables and chairs before painting them so dents didn't show. ( great tip by the way and also a way to tell if a piece is a fake/ copy cat). As I understand it a former employee of the company has bought the name and is trying to get them back to being an American legend, but the company forgot about the marketing leg of the stool, and they died because of it.

Under Armor started in a recession, in a market where a dirty old t-shirt was the highest price people were willing to pay for work-out clothing, and they came to a guy who was an undergrad student good with writing business plans and said write us a business plan we can take to banks. And oh ya, were gonna charge $50 for a shirt that works great, has a great profit margin, and we won't budge on price even if heck freezes over. He told them they were crazy, but sure why not. Under Armor, is now a powerhouse.

Patagonia started out of a need for a safer way to attach humans to old ( defunct) damns when rigging them with explosives.- Carabiners. The founder was and is a "dam-Buster" I believe they are called. Along the way they found that they were good at clothing, and the rest is history, but they respect all three legs of the stool.

I may not be able to afford much from these brands, and they all have their faults. But I do respect them, generally speaking, for the craftsmanship they provide in a financially sustainable way. Financial sustainability helps everybody, especially your customers, community, and local economy. Never feel bad about it. Always encourage it.

This is a little off topic, but we don't encourage it anywhere near enough in the construction industry. And to the guys on here who talk about better communication with pricing and such, again, dead on right. Also, for the record I have no connections with any of the company's discussed in this post.

-Ben

 

[jmbfestool]

When I started I was doing more doors skirting and kitchen fitting mainly.

Then when I got on jobs fitting floor joists or roofing I would get asked by the client if I do internal joinery once it's all been plastered.

I would say yes I do.  They then would suggest things like skirting and door fitting and fitting kitchens and stairs. 

I said yeah I can do all that and also make built in wardrobes and other custome joinery as well.

I would show them a picture of one custome carpentry job I have done then plus with how they have seen me working I normally get given the entire job. 

From then I build up a reputation that I do custome work. 

An extension or new build is a good show room because clients always invite friends and family to show of their new extension or new build so more potential clients.

A job a few months ago turned out just like this.  I was called up to do a roof  I asked Deansocial (here on fog) to give me a hand on the job.  The  client was happy with us because we gave him advice on other jobs while we where doing the roof  because he was very hands on himself.  We also changed the roof design for the better. 

I ended getting most the joinery work which I past onto Dean and my mate Dan.  My mate Dan got to do all the studding skirting doors stairs and built-in wardrobes  etc 

I would of done it myself just don't have enough time

 

[Tinker]

Working together with your buddies helps all involved.  I helped an unknown man who was walking along a back road with an empty gas can in his hand.  I stopped to give him a lift.  ended up taking him out of my way into town where he filled his can and i tok him five or more miles back to his car.  Two years later, he called me to figure a job for him.  I ended up with the job and did all of his masonry for abouut five years.

When i first hung out my shingle, I wad worked as a laborer and apprentice on several jobs with two carpenter/masons who happened t be brother in laws to each other.  I was working for another builder (for two years when I got out of the army) and I was gtting quite handy with the trwel trades, even tho working for him as a carpenter.  One day, my friend, Bud, showed up telling me he was there to figure a chimney to do for my boss.  My comment was that I had thought my boss and I were going to do the chimney.  I let my friend know that i was also going to give a price.  Bud appreciated my honesty and a year or so later, he got a large project too big for him to do alone.  He asked if i could give him a hand; to which i agreed .  His BIL also helped him on the same job.  For several years after, the two BIL's and I might estimate the same jobs as seperate cntractors.  Sometimes, I won and they would help me.  Sometimes one or the other BIL would get the job and the other two of us would help.

I was the youngest and newest in business so on their jobs, i would pitch in and do most of the labor work, mixing mortar and carrying blocks/bricks.  I would always get to the job first to set things up for the day.  There were times when the owner did not know the three of us even knew each other and maybe it was Bud's or Fred's job.  As i started setting things up, the owner would come out and tell me they had given the job to one of my two friends.  They had "...never told me I had the job."  I would just laugh and tell the owner that they were in very good hands after all.  even tho we were competitors, we were not enemies.

A few ears later, my two friends closed their own businesses and went to work for a large builder who specialized in very high quality renovation work, much of it in the area locally known as "The Gold Coast."  Bud & Fred gave my name to the builder who, in turn, called me.  I ended u doing al of his masonry for another five or six years until his jobs started getting much bigger than i wanted to do.  Because we were willing to work with each other, my two friends and i ended up working together and learning from each other for many years. We all got some very fine work as a result of working together and sticking to a high quality, even while competing against each other.
Tinker