Best Tablesaw for Festoolians

[Matthew Schenker]

My two reservation are 1) it's Dewalt and 2) it doesn't appear to have a true riving knife.    I'm not trying to be rude, but I'm not a big fan of Dewalt.  And I was injured by a table saw when I was a kid.  They make me nervous.  Safety is big issue for me.

I think you are not alone here.  Safety is a huge issue for me.  The fact that the Bosch has a true riving knife is a major pluys in  my book in favor of that saw.  If the fence and overall design were as good on the Bosch as the Ridgid I'd be using a Bosch now in my shop.  My dream benchtop table saw is the basic design of the Ridgid, with the riving knife of the Bosch.

Matthew

 

[ericbuggeln]

any suggestions on after market riving knifes.  the one that came with the saw scared me when I first used it and seemed like it would get held up on every cut.  i have seen guys sharpen them if you will, but I would buy one if I could get it to fit?  I already own the dw745 and am looking to upgrade safety and ease of use first, but obviously the increased accuracy with a better fence design would be awesome.  Gary Katz has a set up that looks similar in his video set that I got and it looks like it is worth the $400.00 plus

 

[Matthew Schenker]

any suggestions on after market riving knifes.  the one that came with the saw scared me when I first used it and seemed like it would get held up on every cut.  i have seen guys sharpen them if you will, but I would buy one if I could get it to fit?  I already own the dw745 and am looking to upgrade safety and ease of use first, but obviously the increased accuracy with a better fence design would be awesome.  Gary Katz has a set up that looks similar in his video set that I got and it looks like it is worth the $400.00 plus.

As far as I know, there is no way to add an after-market riving knife.  A proper riving knife is built into the blade-height mechanism so it rises and falls with the blade and stays at a constant distance from the back of the blade.  It's a more complex, and costly, system.  If you have a Festool TS55, you will notice that it has a riving knife.  With the power off, turn the saw upside down and plunge it.  The riving knife descends with the blade and remains the same distance from the back of the blade at all times.

What you are referring to is a splitter, which is in a fixed position on the table.  This means that, depending on blade height, there can be more or less of a gap between the back of the blade and the splitter.  There are numerous after-market options for splitters.  I have not tried them, but I understand that some are very good.

Perhaps someone can post a photo or two illustrating the difference between a riving knife and a splitter?

Matthew

 

[Ned]

This just in from Wikipedia:

A riving knife is a safety device on table saws used for woodworking.

Table saws are typically used for two functions - cross-cutting and ripping. Cross-cutting is slicing a board across its width and across the grain of the wood. Ripping is cutting a board lengthwise, with the grain. A riving knife prevents a phenomenon known as kickback. This occurs when the wood is caught by the rear edge of the table saw blade, lifted off of the table and propelled backwards toward the operator.

Two circumstances usually cause kickback: The closure of the kerf behind the blade due to the relief of stresses in the wood as it is cut, or a binding of the wood between the blade and a vertical fence used to guide the wood into the blade during the ripping operation.

Table saws are sometimes equipped with some kind of "splitter", a stationary blade of metal or plastic that holds the kerf open behind the blade. The safety function of a riving knife is the same as a splitter - it prevents the slot cut into kerf from closing behind the blade on a rip, or allowing the stock that may bind between the blade and fence from getting caught by the teeth on the back of the blade

A riving knife differs from a simple splitter in some important ways:

    * It doesn't need to be removed from the saw when cross-cutting or doing a blind (non-through) cut as it doesn't extend above the top of the saw blade. If it isn't removed, the operator can't forget to put it back on.
    * It sits closer to the back edge of the blade, making it much more effective - less space for the stock to shift into the path of the blade
    * It provides some additional protection for the operator - blocking contact to the back edge of the blade - in those situations where the stock is being pulled from the outfeed side of the saw
    * It's independent of (and won't interfere with) other blade guards and dust collectors

The way it achieves all of this is that is mounted on the same mechanism that mounts the blade, allowing it to move with the saw blade as it's raised, lowered and tilted. To work properly, the knife should be just slightly less than the width of the blade, and is just slightly shorter than the blade.

In 2009, Underwriters Laboratories (UL) will require that all new table saw designs include a riving knife.

 

[ericbuggeln]

this is what mine looks like. http://www.garymkatz.com/ToolReviews/riving_knife.html

 

[ericbuggeln]

I just realized that if you scroll down on that link is where I saw the mod, but Dewalts model looks like that first pic and no matter how much grinding you do it isn't going to look like that.  if someone made one or Saw Stops would fit other saws and was for sale? that would be great

 

[ericbuggeln]

saw stop riving knife for $15.00, could be fabricated to fit some saws?

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Ned,
Thanks for the Wikipedia entry.  I've seen confusion in many woodworking forums regarding riving knives and splitters.  Sometimes, even experts use the two terms loosely when they mean very different things.

One surprise for me was that UL is requiring all new table saw designs to have a riving knife starting in 2009!  I did not know this before.  Maybe it's because I've been out of the loop on table saws for a while.

Matthew

 

[Matthew Schenker]

saw stop riving knife for $15.00, could be fabricated to fit some saws?

You could perhaps find a way to mount something of that shape on a table saw, but it still would not be a proper riving knife unless it moved up and down with the blade.  SawStop table saws have proper riving knives.  But you could not take the riving knife from a SawStop and install it on a Craftsman or Delta saw (for example) unless they had the mechanism for accepting a riving knife.

Matthew

 

[Ned]

Agreed Matthew.

My understanding of all this is that a "riving knife" is a kind of "splitter".  It doesn't differ in its shape or material, but only in its mounting.  Riving knives follow table saw adjustments and provide added safety no matter how the blade is oriented.  Splitters don't.

Ned

 

[Dan Clark]

In addition, I believe that riving knives maintain a constant (relatively close) distance from the blade regardless of whether it is high or low.

Dan.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Agreed Matthew.

My understanding of all this is that a "riving knife" is a kind of "splitter".  It doesn't differ in its shape or material, but only in its mounting.  Riving knives follow table saw adjustments and provide added safety no matter how the blade is oriented.  Splitters don't.

Yes, I suppose all riving knives are splitters, but not all splitters are riving knives!  I'm no expert, but the riving knives I've seen seem to have a more "curved" profile, as if they are hugging the curve of the saw blade.  Stationary splitters seem to have less of this.

Matthew

 

[ericbuggeln]

The dw745 comes with a splitter that moves up and down with the blade.  In theory if that saw stop riving knife could be altered to fit into where the splitter was taken from, then wouldn't it act as a pure riving knife.  Obviously the height that it sat comparatively to the blade would be important.  I can't seem to locate the old splitter, but it looks very much like the saw stop at the bottom where it would connect.  If the height was close enough then there would maybe need to be minor alterations to the bottom so that it would fit?  It also seems like it would look just like Gary Katz's modification and I know he's down for safety.

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Eric,
If someone has figured out a way to do that with the DeWalt, it would be interesting to see it.  When I was comparing benchtop table saws, however, I liked the riving knives of both the Bosch and the DeWalt, but the fence systems and overall structure of these saws was below the Ridgid.  As much as I am for safety, I still would not have opted for the Bosch or the DeWalt, even with the riving knives.

The thing is, I never use my table saw for ripping anything.  I rip all full plywood sheets with the TS55.  I do all my crosscutting on the MFT.  If I need to rip narrow pieces, I use the bandsaw.  I use my router table or the OF1400 on the MFT for all my dadoes.  I never cut rough lumber on the table saw, as I'm concerned about reactions.

There are only two things I use my table saw for: (1) miters/compound cuts; (2) minor trimming/cut-offs.  For example, I just used it to cut the ends for a couple of mitered picture frames.  Another example, I just got through building a coffee table with 2.25" legs.  I used my table saw, along with my Incra miter gauge, to trim the legs to final size.

In my case, I find that the splitter is enough.

Once I get a Kapex in my shop, I will probably not need a table saw for anything.

Matthew

Note: For that coffee table, I used 10x50 Dominoes to attach the legs to the aprons -- excellent!

 

[Tom Wales]

Eric,
If someone has figured out a way to do that with the DeWalt, it would be interesting to see it.  When I was comparing benchtop table saws, however, I liked the riving knives of both the Bosch and the DeWalt, but the fence systems and overall structure of these saws was below the Ridgid.  As much as I am for safety, I still would not have opted for the Bosch or the DeWalt, even with the riving knives.

The thing is, I never use my table saw for ripping anything.  I rip all full plywood sheets with the TS55.  I do all my crosscutting on the MFT.  If I need to rip narrow pieces, I use the bandsaw.  I use my router table or the OF1400 on the MFT for all my dadoes.  I never cut rough lumber on the table saw, as I'm concerned about reactions.

There are only two things I use my table saw for: (1) miters/compound cuts; (2) minor trimming/cut-offs.  For example, I just used it to cut the ends for a couple of mitered picture frames.  Another example, I just got through building a coffee table with 2.25" legs.  I used my table saw, along with my Incra miter gauge, to trim the legs to final size.

In my case, I find that the splitter is enough.

Once I get a Kapex in my shop, I will probably not need a table saw for anything.

Matthew

Note: For that coffee table, I used 10x50 Dominoes to attach the legs to the aprons -- excellent!

Dang, that is one of the shortest tables I've heard of!!! ;D  How high is your couch???
Tom

 

[Dave Rudy]

As far as I know, there is no way to add an after-market riving knife. 

Matthew,  Actually the shark guard adds a riving knife to most tablesaws.  Check outhttp://www.leestyron.com/default.php.  Many people have installed them and speak very highly of the product (on other forums) .

However, Kapex + bandsaw = no tablesaw in my current thinking.  (I haven't moved old trusty yet, just thinking about it).

 

[Loren Hedahl]

There are only two things I use my table saw for: (1) miters/compound cuts; (2) minor trimming/cut-offs.  For example, I just used it to cut the ends for a couple of mitered picture frames.  Another example, I just got through building a coffee table with 2.25" legs.  I used my table saw, along with my Incra miter gauge, to trim the legs to final size.

It's interesting how one person will use a certain tool for an operation and another would choose a different tool for that same operation.

I use my table saw almost exclusively for ripping to dimension.  I have never had a cross-cut blade or combination blade installed on my table saw.  For the operations you describe I use a compound miter saw.  The way I get accuracy with miters is to swing the saw to one side for the right miters and to the other for the left miters using the built-in detents.

I just always figured the miter saw detents were far more accurate than any miter gage on the market.  I'm sure there are hundreds of folks that have another opinion  --  and don't worry, I may even change my mind.

When I'm doing framing, I have an old Sears aluminum 9 inch radial arm saw.  However I'd like to make a rain-proof MFT facsimile that is light weight and get rid of that old radial arm saw before it gets rid of me!

 

[gemorris]

I would like to second the suggestion for an INCA tablesaw for festool users.  This is of course only if portability is not an issue.  I am building my own mega-MFT for my festool tools, but I have also just bought an INCA 2100 table saw (with router table extension) and an INCA 550 jointer/planer combo.

Festool simply does not make stationary tools.  In some cases there are NAINA substitution jigs for stationary tools (a la CMS) but festool is in the business of making precise quality portable tools.

For my shop, I find INCA's brand, image, and products, more closely align with Festool than any other, including Minimax(SCMI) and Felder.  Mainly because INCA machines were designed with space limitations in mind.  Compare the mass and volume of an INCA combo j/p, and a felder/mm/grizzly combo j/p.

There is of course no perfect answer for everyone to the OP's question, but my vote would be searching craigslist for an INCA tablesaw (they had riving knives).

INCA is being made again, in france this time, but they are not exporting to the US, which I think is a shame.  Festool has proven that there is a large niche market in the US for quality precision tools.  I think that should also translate to small stationary tools as well, but I could be wrong.  Then again, they might not be able to compete on price even with felder etc.  When the original owner of my TS bought it in the late 80's, with all the available options, it was $4000.  The jointer planer combo was $2200 (which is honestly more reasonable, but that was 1980's dollars).

 

[Matthew Schenker]

Dang, that is one of the shortest tables I've heard of!!! ;D  How high is your couch???

Very funny!  OK, for the record, I am 5'10".  The table legs are 2.25" thick (they are 18" long).

Matthew,  Actually the shark guard adds a riving knife to most tablesaws.  Check outhttp://www.leestyron.com/default.php.  Many people have installed them and speak very highly of the product (on other forums) .

However, Kapex + bandsaw = no tablesaw in my current thinking.  (I haven't moved old trusty yet, just thinking about it).

About a year before I got into Festool, I owned a Ryobi table saw, and it had a true riving knife (one of the main reasons I bought it).  I had one of the early versions of Lee's Shark Guard.  But it was made to work on the riving knife mechanism of the Ryobi saw.  Has Lee found a way to retrofit a riving knife onto a non-riving knife mechanism?  In other words, can I attach his knife/guard assembly to the blade-height mechanism of my Ridgid?  If he's done that, I would be very impressed and would purchase one right now.  In my world, a Ridgid TS2400 with a riving knife is the perfect table saw.

But as I said, and you seconded, if I get a Kapex I will probably no longer need a table saw at all.

...I just always figured the miter saw detents were far more accurate than any miter gage on the market.  I'm sure there are hundreds of folks that have another opinion  --  and don't worry, I may even change my mind.

That's probably true in most cases.  But the Incra gauges are really great.  Mine is an Incra Jig 1000 with an extension that let's me go to about 40" and has an excellent "flip stop" for repeat cuts.  I have cut absolutely perfect miters many times using this gauge.  Or, in the case of cutting four table legs to precisely the same length, perfect repetitive cuts (or trims).  Generally, I'm a big fan of Incra products (second only to Festool in my shop).  I bought mine at Woodpeckers.  You can find it by clicking here.

Matthew

 

[ericbuggeln]

Matt, next time i'm at local Woodcraft I will see if they have a Saw Stop floor model that they would let me take the splitter off and see if it could be fabricated to fit dw735.  I will let you know.  i agree with you on weak fence attachment and will be getting the rousseau set up b/c there fence looks much nicer.