Best way to accurately cut plumbing holes in back of vanity

[Brice Burrell]

Ok I have to say that the holes and install in the pic is so unbelievably neat, clean and nice I'm not sure I could pull it off. Very nice work.
However, I'd have to write the crap out of it if it were done here since it is not compliant with the plumbing code.
- no stinkin' AAV's allowed, fixture not properly vented
- discharging dishwasher into side of garbage disposal not allowed due to cross-contamination concerns
- no PEX allowed
But heh that's just around here ... the Plumber protects the health of the nation.

And no romex in that crazy place called Chicago.  Thankfully the rest of the country is far more sane.

 

[tjbnwi]

Ok I have to say that the holes and install in the pic is so unbelievably neat, clean and nice I'm not sure I could pull it off. Very nice work.
However, I'd have to write the crap out of it if it were done here since it is not compliant with the plumbing code.
- no stinkin' AAV's allowed, fixture not properly vented
- discharging dishwasher into side of garbage disposal not allowed due to cross-contamination concerns
- no PEX allowed
But heh that's just around here ... the Plumber protects the health of the nation.

Makes me wonder why is it so different where you live
Mechanical vent are very popular here in VA
What's the difference between connecting a DW to a garbage disposal and a drain?
As long as you make a loop above the connection there's nothing wrong
PEX is everywhere!
As far as pipes coming from the floor,it could be because of building codes or maybe it is an island
I know that in North Carolina you can't have water pipes in exterior walls  but the drain is OK
So we do see a lot of houses with water line from floor and drain line from wall  ,makes it very difficult for us installer to make this look good

The Illinois Plumbing code does not allow a mechanical vent. The AAV is a mechanical vent. Here an island would require a revent loop.
I don't understand the disposal issue, a properly looped dishwasher discharge hose solves the problem.
No PEX for now, took awhile to allow PVC for the DWV.

No water lines in exterior walls allowed in this area. I know of one plumbing inspector who will not pass drain lines in exterior walls.

Pictures of what can happen when vents are run in exterior walls to clear windows. Should have had a stud shoe on the initial install. Last picture after repairs were made.

Tom

 

[tjbnwi]

Ok I have to say that the holes and install in the pic is so unbelievably neat, clean and nice I'm not sure I could pull it off. Very nice work.
However, I'd have to write the crap out of it if it were done here since it is not compliant with the plumbing code.
- no stinkin' AAV's allowed, fixture not properly vented
- discharging dishwasher into side of garbage disposal not allowed due to cross-contamination concerns
- no PEX allowed
But heh that's just around here ... the Plumber protects the health of the nation.

And no romex in that crazy place called Chicago.  Thankfully the rest of the country is far more sane.

EMT is easy to install.

Tom

 

[Holmz]

Try this and you will laugh, but later thank me.

Get your hands on a stick of lipstick.

...

Thanks... I think.

The Mrs asked, "Do you want some shoes and a camisole too?", and said she... "never heard of a drill and saw as a fashion accessory".

When I blushed she suggested some ivory foundation would be of use.  [embarassed]

 

[Cheese]

When I blushed she suggested some ivory foundation would be of use.  [embarassed]

Well my take is that if you're blushing and you need some ivory foundation to bring you back to normal skin tone, you're sucking up too much sun in the outback...

On another note, the plumbing codes in the states are weird, they're all different. AAV's were also outlawed in Minnesota about 15 years ago, I installed one in an island situation and I'm serious, I was questioned by the independent plumbing supplier like I was trying to purchase crack cocaine. Everything was strictly cash with no receipts.

Fast forward...they are now available in the big box stores and over the counter for a few bucks...really what's changed?

Sometimes rules and regulations are good...sometimes not so good.

Edit: I just remembered what I had to ask for when I purchased the original "illegal" AAV...I had to ask the plumbing supplier for a "Cheater Vent", otherwise he feigned ingnorance.

 

[Sparktrician]

Holes in the cabinets and under sink plumbing have to be neat!! It is a pet peeve of mine!

I'm seriously impressed by the neatness of your work.  Did you do the plumbing yourself, too?  I haven't seen a plumber do work that neat around here.  And I've NEVER seen a plumber leave the stubs the same length coming out of the wall.  Lipstick is a novel idea, but only gives a rough idea of a starting point for one feed line, given the vagaries of setting cabinets, especially in older houses.  I'm more likely to make a cardboard template and cut to that, and I'm lucky if I can get it within 1/2" of being dead on. 

 

[Holzhacker]

A couple of notes on the plumbing ...
- AAV's (yes, cheater vents is also what we call them around here) eventually leak either water or sewer gases into the home, depending on various factors. The problem is you aren't actually venting the plumbing fixture to the exterior. I've walked into kitchens thinking man this place stinks, sure enough there's an AAV. That install would have been required to have an island loop vent. Actually not hard to do but amazing how many guys screw it up. In this case it probably would have needed to be accommodated within the wall cavity. Which bring up the plumbing inside of exterior walls issue. Under normal construction you aren't supposed to put plumbing pipes inside exterior walls because doing so puts the lines 'outside the thermal envelope'. You can however put plumbing pipes inside of exterior walls if the wall is so constructed to allow for the pipes to remain 'within the thermal envelope'.
Great pics by tjbnwi of a failure situation.
- Running the dishwasher drain line into the garbage disposal poses a cross contamination hazard potential. If the disposal drain line gets clogged, which does happen, sink water and contaminants can down into the dishwasher. You do a load of dishes, the disposal clogs and backs into the dishwasher, you pull a glass out thinking its clean but instead its contaminated and you end up running to the bathroom or hospital.
Theoretically, the dishwasher drain line would be attached at a proper high loop under the sink rim to avoid this. However, it is very rare I see a proper high loop. Most of the time the drain line is lying at the sink base floor and looks disgusting (the clear ones). In the pic this looks like a farm sink install so unless you cut a cavity you aren't going to get a proper high loop to under the sink rim, i.e. under the countertop.
And not we don't go for no lousy romex.
The Codes are not in place because government wants to intrude into your life (they have plenty of other ways to do that). The Code is in place so that when something does go wrong it will hopefully only go sort of wrong instead of horribly wrong resulting in major death or injury. Without building codes those of us on the FOG would most like still build compliant structures or installations. However, without building codes it would be the wild wild west out there for a lot of flippers/developers and we'd be watching ongoing building failures on the news regularly.
I love my work but sometimes I get sick of seeing morons do stupid stuff. Just to be clear that comment is in NO WAY whatsoever directly at this thread.

 

[mastercabman]

OK
Can you explain how you hook up your dishwasher?
What is the difference between a garbage disposal getting clog and a sink without one?
The dishwasher has a pump with a valve so when it drains the water is forced out
When it stops the valve closes
So how does water goes back into dishwasher?

 

[overanalyze]

Thanks for the compliments guys! I also knew the picture would get quite a bit of input regarding code compliance in different  areas of the States. Even city to city can vary in code regs.

We do most of our plumbing in house on our reno projects. Everything is done code compliant  for our area.

Romex is about the only method we use in residential work. Sometimes some MC cable.

We are not required to use an air gap for dishwashers. That hose does come in high up by the sink rim.

It is an island install with a farmhouse sink without the ability to install a loop vent in this instance, thus the code approved AAV.

Pex is awesome! I have personally been installing pex for almost 18 years....not one failure. Like anything the installation can be done neat or messy.

We will use copper if that is what the house has.

Here is the kitchen. Also here is another sink install we did with copper. Let the hazing begin

Electrical panel installations are another pet peeve of mine.

 

[tjbnwi]

If the drain line on a dishwasher plugs, no matter where in the drain system, the dishwasher will not empty or be full of water. As already pointed out there is a back flow valve in the dishwasher drain line. A dishwasher being hooked to a disposal is a non issue. I know it's code in Illinois, a frivolous one at best.

If the drain line does not have a high loop it is not installed to manufactures specs, that would be the code violation.

Mechanical drain vents (AAV's) I have smelled fail, never seen an AAV leak water.

Tom

 

[Larso]

Cant  really comment on the actual plumbing performance but the pics do show very tidy installations.They also show the metal flanges always used by plumbing contractors here and i guess somewhat negate the issue of extreme accuracy being required,sure you have to be close to the money but dead on centre for every hole is probably not required.

 

[Holzhacker]

Either run it to its own trap or to a flanged tailpiece
No difference between a clogged sink or disposal really. However if the dishwasher is run to its own trap or to a flanged tailpiece at the other sink bowl, the disposal or its trap line clogging up won't affect the dishwasher drain line. Yes, dishwasher have valves that should keep water out, however you know for sure it will work. I don't.

 

[jools]

Here is the effort made by the plumber IN MY HOUSE [eek] where the reinstatement goes on after our house fire. New cupboard back required I think!

 

[jools]

Funnily enough I am installing a kitchen in the refurb I'm working on in the next town. I would get the sack for that above

 

[Sparktrician]

Here is the effort made by the plumber IN MY HOUSE [eek] where the reinstatement goes on after our house fire. New cupboard back required I think!

Dang!!!  Are you sure it wasn't the butcher?  [scared]

 

[tjbnwi]

Here is the effort made by the plumber IN MY HOUSE [eek] where the reinstatement goes on after our house fire. New cupboard back required I think!

Looking good [thumbs up]

Tom

 

[lshw]

My dw drains into the side of the disposl and I get water back into the dw all the time. Never pay too much of attention now I have to fix it.

 

[peter halle]

Going back to the original question, I ran across this suggestion in a newsletter today and thought I would share it.

"Center a drain-line hole in a cabinet By Geoffrey Montague
A quick, easy method for centering the drain behind the back of a cabinet is to take the length of masking tape and twist it so that the sticky side faces out in the middle. Stick it to the wall over the drainpipe. Push a rare-earth magnet into the center of the tape. Next, move the cabinet into its position and place another rare-earth magnet on the inside of the cabinet’s back panel. Move it around until it is drawn to the other magnet. Now you can trace around the magnet to know where to center the drain-line hole in the back of the cabinet."

Just offering food for thought....

Peter

 

[Bob D.]

"Pipes from the floor are usually a good indication of an island, the air admittance valve reaffirms that."

Not always though. Some times if the sink is on an outside wall I have seen the water lines and drain
stubbed up through the floor as opposed to running in the wall so the chance of freezing is reduced.

 

[Womble]

Here is the effort made by the plumber IN MY HOUSE [eek] where the reinstatement goes on after our house fire. New cupboard back required I think!

Was the "TAMED RAT" in his tool bag that he used to cut that out with not a clue?
Jeez anyone working for me who did an axe job like that would be down the road....

There is always situation where you have to cut out way more than you would like to get access to something, but its how you leave things for the finished job that matters