Big job coming up!

[tiralie]

not one fireplace in that house has an upside down scroll, bracket, corbel, modillion (learned that one from the JLC link)  It serves a different function when attached to a wall. 

Vindingo:
Love this discussion. I am glad you pointed out this unusual design.
I am not sure I agree that there is nothing in the Winterthur that looks like this, but that's ok  [big grin]. The scroll leaning back is a bit odd looking but not out of character with the mantle profiles in the Winterthur house and there seems to be more influences drawn from the Winterthur house for use in the molding and details mastercabman has graciously posted.
I would be curious (anyone?) to know if the scroll is correct or incorrect architecturally and what the origin is.
Tim

 

[Vindingo]

Not at all!    I think this is very interesting.I do believe that what we are talking about is a "scroll" not a "corbel" and as mentioned by Tim,it is most likely a Federal  style and i have seen this scroll design before and it is set the way it suppose to be.
You may find it a little weird looking,but for me,......well i do like it.

I think a "scroll" can fit under the umbrella of type of "corbel".  A scroll can be a corbel, but a corbel is not necessarily a scroll.
   

Vindingo:
Love this discussion. I am glad you pointed out this unusual design.
I am not sure I agree that there is nothing in the Winterthur that looks like this, but that's ok  [big grin]. The scroll leaning back is a bit odd looking but not out of character with the mantle profiles in the Winterthur house and there seems to be more influences drawn from the Winterthur house for use in the molding and details mastercabman has graciously posted.
I would be curious (anyone?) to know if the scroll is correct or incorrect architecturally and what the origin is.
Tim

To be fair, I was commenting only on the orientation of the fireplace corbels (scrolls  [tongue] ).  There are none which have the fat side down in any of the photos on the virtual tour.  If you look at the photo I posted of the yellow room, both the scroll applied to the wall and the bracket under the mantle are oriented opposite of the cherry room.  

From Vitruvius: 13. All the members which are to be above the capitals of the columns, that is, architraves, friezes, coronae, tympana, gables, and acroteria, should be inclined to the front a twelfth part of their own height, for the reason that when we stand in front of them, if two lines are drawn from the eye, one reaching to the bottom of the building and the other to the top, that which reaches to the top will be the longer. Hence, as the line of sight to the upper part is the longer, it makes that part look as if it were leaning back. But when the members are inclined to the front, as described above, they will seem to the beholder to be plumb and perpendicular.  http://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/vitruvius/book03.htm#5

As far as the rest of the design, I can definitely see the Winterthur house in the there, especially the Chinese room.  

The scrolls are probably a derivation of the Ionic order.  I slept through architecture history.  

Federal Style -> Roman arch -> Greek arch
Vitruviushttp://www.bostonleadershipbuilders.com/vitruvius/  "On Architecture"      

And just for fun:

 

[tiralie]

Vindingo
Ok, you win  [big grin]. Thanks again, I am learning a lot. Great info.
I don't think we disagree. Terminating that frieze pattern with that scroll just looks, wrong.
Just to be clear when I referenced the Wintherhur house details I was referring to the pulvinated frieze in the Architraves above the windows and doors.
While it's a stretch it looks like the sides of the frieze on the mantle started out as a pulvinated frieze and then it was terminated with the scroll...if that makes any sense.
There is an example of a similar albeit stylized bracket on the Architrave above the doors in the in the Riggs National Bank in Washington D.C.
Tim

 

[GPowers]

love this kind of discussion, both all the photos of an over the op house. And the discussion about stuff being install incorrectly. 

4 years and it WRONG?

 

[EWTHeckman]

In looking at how "corbels" are usually used, I notice that they act as an angle piece to go from a narrower area or flat area to a larger or more prominent area. For example, in the stairway area, they go from a flat wall to details which are several inches out from the wall.

But on that fireplace, the widest part of the mantlepiece seems to be the same width as the outside of the fireplace. In other words, the "scroll" or "corbel" makes the mantel support narrower, then it immediately widens again for the mantel. Could this be what's making you guys cringe? That it's a decorative "angle" that flows the "wrong" direction?

It's definitely an impressive house, especially the craftsmanship.

 

[tiralie]

In other words, the "scroll" or "corbel" makes the mantel support narrower, then it immediately widens again for the mantel. Could this be what's making you guys cringe? That it's a decorative "angle" that flows the "wrong" direction?

For me the whole upper part of the mantle  looks somewhat unbalanced and the "inverted scrolls" are not helping it. While I did try to find some precedent for this design somewhere, Vindingo made some good points.
After some more research it appears that this is mantle is derived from "Style of the Brothers Adam" which is generally classified as Federal style in the US but I cannot find any historical reference to support that.
I am interested in the origin of this design (I am not sure it's wrong, but it sure is unusual) and hopefully Mastercabman will be able to get some more info if it's available.

 

[Vindingo]

How about a curve ball?

I have found some precedents which contradict my original assertion on the morphology of the "scroll"

How about Neo Classical Georgian for $1000?  http://www.westlandlondon.com/stock/chimneypiecestyle/neoclassical-and-georgian-fireplaces/item/10024/image2.htm

"A SUBSTANTIAL CARVED OAK CHIMNEYPIECE IN THE PALLADIAN MANNER. The undermoulding of the large tiered shelf is carved with repeating Acanthus leaf, and supported on seven pairs of scrolled Acanthus leaf brackets, over a dentil and egg and dart border above the frieze panel. This wide panel is abundantly carved with high relief scrolled floral decoration...flanked by massive scrolled end brackets. The plain opening surrounds the original bolection shaped Verde Antico green marble ingrounds and footblocks. "

For me the whole upper part of the mantle  looks somewhat unbalanced and the "inverted scrolls" are not helping it. While I did try to find some precedent for this design somewhere, Vindingo made some good points.
After some more research it appears that this is mantle is derived from "Style of the Brothers Adam" which is generally classified as Federal style in the US but I cannot find any historical reference to support that.
I am interested in the origin of this design (I am not sure it's wrong, but it sure is unusual) and hopefully Mastercabman will be able to get some more info if it's available.

I agree that it seems unbalanced, and the proportions of the individual elements are a bit off.  Even though the brackets which flank the frieze panel in the mantel linked to above are the same orientation as in the cherry room, I read them horizontally, not upside down... if that makes any sense.