Big Tool Purchase Question

[mculik5]

I need some advice. Like most, my budget is limited, and I can't afford to make more than one large tool purchase every one to two years. That said, I'm a "buy once, cry once" kind of guy, so when I do make those large purchases, I tend to go for the best.

My plan for this year's large purchase had been a top spec router table (Incra Super System, Woodpeckers lift, etc.). I want the Incra Super System because it's a great fence, but also because it allows for dovetail and box joinery. Sure, there are better/faster ways to make these joints, but as a hobbyist (and one with limited space, at that), I need to compromise somewhere.

However, dovetail and box joinery work best with solid wood, and I work mostly with ply. I don't have a jointer/planer yet (too big - I work mostly out of a one-car garage and, on the driveway when the weather is nice), so getting into solid wood is going to be difficult for me at this time. Also, I have an OF1400 and some accessories, so I can perform limited router table functions currently.

Enter the 10% Kapex promo that Festool is running, and a YouTube video by MrBigerock...

I love the Kapex simply because it's an awesome saw. As I said, I'm a hobbyist, so I definitely don't need a Kapex, but it's just cool. Plus, I'm doing a lot of trim work at my house right now, and I believe the dual lasers, angle finder, and UG cart would make that process a lot less frustrating.

Presently, I have a non-sliding, single-bevel 10" DeWalt miter saw. I've added an arbor-mounted laser that works pretty well considering it was $20, and a nice Freud blade. There's nothing wrong with the saw, but I do get frustrated using it. The guard sucks, so it's off, and I've got to run the saw to use the laser. Most times, I'm running the saw with one hand and adjusting the wood to the laser mark with the other. Not too bad, but not the safest, either. Plus, the laser is only on one side of the blade, and the saw only bevels one way, so there's a lot of flipping and flopping and turning wood over to make cuts. Also, I don't have a proper stand for it, so I have to set up and level material support stands, move them when the pieces get shorter, etc.

The Kapex and cart would fix all of that, but the other big benefit I realized while watching the MrBigerock video on YouTube is that I can connect the UG wings to my MFT/3 as infeed/outfeed support. Additionally, the fact that I can push the Kapex against a wall is another big plus (not that there aren't other saws that also allow this).

So...for about $2K, I can have the best miter saw available, on a sweet stand, with multipurpose wings. Considering a decent miter saw stand for my current saw is about $200, and that I could sell my current saw and accessories for about $150, the net cost of the Kapex and cart is about $1650. Coincidentally, that's about what my top of the line router table setup would cost.

What would you do? Take advantage of the Kapex sale, or go with the router table? Or something else entirely?

Thanks for your help!

 

[nclemmons]

What other tools do you have? 

And what are the key projects you have in mind for the next year that this budget needs to get you through?

 

[grbmds]

I just bought the Incra system, Combo package #3. On Incra's advice I bought the MastrLift II instead of the Woodpecker's lift. I also bought the Porter Cable 7518 motor to dedicate it to the table. It was a good choice I feel; very precise and accurate. In the short time I've owned it I've cut practice dovetails using this table and the Incra fence, etc. and found that, on only the second try, I cut a set of perfect half-blind dovetails. Other router operations, like dadoing and rabbeting, are also extremely accurate on this table with the Incra fence, although I've used my OF 1400 router with the guide rail on my MFT to cut dadoes for the drawer bottoms, also accurate, high quality. and dust-free with the OF 1400.

I'm not a big miter saw fan, regardless of the brand. I'm sure the Kapex is better than the others and has better dust collection, but I doubt your incremental improvement in your work would be significant but that, of course, depends on what you use it for. I have used my TS55 and MFT in place of a miter saw (which I sold) and find that my work is better, more accurate, and dust-free. I never had that completely with my Hitachi miter saw (although it's true I never owned a Kapex).

If you a lot of cut-off work or trim work, or anything that a Kapex would repetitively do easier and/or better, sure the Kapex may be a good choice. You already have a miter saw, though, so maybe you can do minor improvements to the fence and with dust collection improve the performance of that tool without the big expenditure of money. There are a lot of resources online which provide guidance on improving accuracy and dust collection on miter saws.

This just my opinion having just gone through a process where I bought a TS55, MFT, CT48 vac, OF1400, upgraded my router table to the Incra system, and sold my miter saw. I will never be sorry. My work has improved and is more dust-free.

 

[Neal W]

My goodness, your post read just like my own situation a year ago.  Save for my Miter saw is an older Craftsman model, but it works, it cuts accurately, and I too have the add on laser guide, which I like.  In fact I do a lot of what you are saying.  I also work out of a one car garage, and mostly on the driveway.  Last year I purchased the Incra 17" fence with a table top.  I also popped for the 3 1/4 horse Triton Plunge router to put in it.  The table base is a pair of "thrown away" stock cabinets from my Neighbor's trash pile.  A scrap piece of 3/4" OSB doubled up with casters....Instant router table with four drawers for storage.  I love the setup.  In fact one of my projects is to find a way to put the LS fence system on my Ryobi BT3000 table saw. 

My big purchase last year was a Grizzly track saw (INCOMING!!!!).  I spent $250 for the saw, three sections of 55" track and a good quality Oshlun blade.  For me it has worked wonderfully.  Not it isn't a TS55, won't even try to compare.  But it wan't $615+ either.  For me it works. 

Take a look at the Bosch 12" dual Bevel with the hinged arm mechanism. It isn't a Kapex, but it also goes for about $600 too.  It also gets good reviews.  Then you can use the other $600+ to purchase something else significant.  Like a Domino or a Dust extractor. 

This year, my plans include a OF1400 Router, the LR32 rail and kit.  And my intention is to get the DF500 and quite possibly a dust extractor to go with it.  I'm also thinking about the RO90.  My reasons....

My trim work is done (don't need a new miter saw right now). 

My upcoming projects include...

Building some more cabinets for my garage.  Thus the domino for the face frames and the carcasses.  The LR32 for adjustable shelves. 

An MFTC, There is also a thread here on the forum.  So the domino will be helpful in this project as will the LR32 to fabricate the top. 

I have to refinish my kitchen table (sand it down and reapply the poly or whatever type of topcoat).  So the RO90 will be useful for that. 

The Dust collection because it is important, and my shop vac is on its last breath.

My point is buy the tools you need for the jobs you have coming up.  If the Router table will help you with your project list, than dive in and don't look back.  If the Kapex (or any other miter saw upgrade) will make those projects better, then you have to prioritize.  You won't be disappointed with the incra stuff though.  It is top notch.  There is a bit of a learning curve, but it is a joy to use.

 

[grbmds]

Neal W - Good luck with the LS Positioner on your BT3000. I just sold mine. I have always found it an under-powered, inaccurate tool. I don't think the Positioner will change that much except for maybe allowing quicker setup on the rip fence. I'm just glad mine went to a good adoptive home; someone who is using it where a high level of accuracy isn't required. I do miss the table saw once in a great while but have compensated for it with my OF1400 on a guide rail, my bandsaw and jointer, my Incra router table, and some good quality hand planes. I might get a small saw to supplement the TS55 but am still trying to avoid that. Good luck on the Incra/BT3000 effort. I'm shooting for mounting an older version on my MFT.

 

[Birdhunter]

If you forego the router lift, you can build a darn good router table buying just the mounting plate and making the rest. Then, you can buy the Kapex AND a dust collector. The Kapex is an awesome machine.

 

[jplemons]

I'm close to you same situation, but have decided against the Kapex. It's just too much for me at this point. I'm also working toward the Incra set up. Eventually, I'll get a planer as well. I plan to use the router setup as a jointer. I did just get a Domino 500, have theTS 55, MFT and a midi. I'm eyeing the Bosch 10" slider to replace my small Craftsman, which will "save" me a lot of money to either get the Incra set up or other odds and ends I reallly need.

 

[mazmes]

My goodness, your post read just like my own situation a year ago.  Save for my Miter saw is an older Craftsman model, but it works, it cuts accurately, and I too have the add on laser guide, which I like.  In fact I do a lot of what you are saying.  I also work out of a one car garage, and mostly on the driveway.  Last year I purchased the Incra 17" fence with a table top.  I also popped for the 3 1/4 horse Triton Plunge router to put in it.  The table base is a pair of "thrown away" stock cabinets from my Neighbor's trash pile.  A scrap piece of 3/4" OSB doubled up with casters....Instant router table with four drawers for storage.  I love the setup.  In fact one of my projects is to find a way to put the LS fence system on my Ryobi BT3000 table saw. 

Neal W, I would greatly appreciate any info regarding the Triton router on the Incra table and your BT 3000 LS conversion. I just picked up the TRA001 and Incra table with wonder fence. Regarding the BT, I've owned a 3100 for about ten years and was considering upgrading until I bought my track saw. Any thing a can do to make the BT more accurate would be great. I gave up on the SMT a long time ago and the fence needs to much attention.

 

[JayStPeter]

My feeling is that people tend to overspec their router tables.  I'm certainly guilty, after all the magazine articles and forum posts I thought I needed everything.  I have all the bells and whistles on mine and really sometimes wish it was smaller and simpler.  I'm all for the lift.  Best part of my table.  The big bad joinery fence ... meh.  It was cool to build boxes with for a while, but 10 years later I think it's sometimes nice, but usually takes too much fiddling to get it set.  I think for 80% of what I use the router table for, it takes more time to setup than a simple homemade fence.  Very few things can't be done with a simple homemade fence (other than the joinery).  The joinery fences work best for joinery, although dovetails are a little clunky with it if you're doing drawers.  Sometimes nice when you're trying to dial something in by .001.  But, for the most part I'd say not the best for general purpose use.  Also, I built my entire table around the fence and it is a huge table to support that thing.  Takes up entirely too much space.
My advice is to downspec your router table no matter what you decide to do otherwise.  I like a lift and 3HP router, but otherwise simplify.  There are plenty of other ways to make the joints the fences do, some of them you may like better.  Honestly, those fences make it really easy to screw up your joinery.  I like a quick/dirty throw-away table saw box joint jig better anymore.

 

[grbmds]

My feeling is that people tend to overspec their router tables.  I'm certainly guilty, after all the magazine articles and forum posts I thought I needed everything.  I have all the bells and whistles on mine and really sometimes wish it was smaller and simpler.  I'm all for the lift.  Best part of my table.  The big bad joinery fence ... meh.  It was cool to build boxes with for a while, but 10 years later I think it's sometimes nice, but usually takes too much fiddling to get it set.  I think for 80% of what I use the router table for, it takes more time to setup than a simple homemade fence.  Very few things can't be done with a simple homemade fence (other than the joinery).  The joinery fences work best for joinery, although dovetails are a little clunky with it if you're doing drawers.  Sometimes nice when you're trying to dial something in by .001.  But, for the most part I'd say not the best for general purpose use.  Also, I built my entire table around the fence and it is a huge table to support that thing.  Takes up entirely too much space.
My advice is to downspec your router table no matter what you decide to do otherwise.  I like a lift and 3HP router, but otherwise simplify.  There are plenty of other ways to make the joints the fences do, some of them you may like better.  Honestly, those fences make it really easy to screw up your joinery.  I like a quick/dirty throw-away table saw box joint jig better anymore.

Each to his own. I used a basic Rockler router table, plate for a number of years, then bought an Incra positioner that was made by Incra for Rockler. The accuracy and quality of my work immediately got better (course it could just be my skills improved). So, when I decided to upgrade and researched all the possible tables, etc., I picked the Incra setup. The table itself doesn't matter as long as it is flat, but the Incra fence and the MastrLift give me so much accuracy easily that I will never regret it. If you're just starting out, a much more basic setup is probably good until you see exactly what you need and what work you do.

 

[JayStPeter]

Each to his own. I used a basic Rockler router table, plate for a number of years, then bought an Incra positioner that was made by Incra for Rockler. The accuracy and quality of my work immediately got better (course it could just be my skills improved). So, when I decided to upgrade and researched all the possible tables, etc., I picked the Incra setup. The table itself doesn't matter as long as it is flat, but the Incra fence and the MastrLift give me so much accuracy easily that I will never regret it. If you're just starting out, a much more basic setup is probably good until you see exactly what you need and what work you do.
[/quote]

Sounds like the OP is where I was 12-13 years ago.  Looking back on the years of putting together my shop and where I spent my money, bottom line is I would've done the router table different and been able to afford some other things earlier.  I don't know what the OP has/doesn't have in his shop right now, but $2K for a router table doesn't make sense to me based on how I use it relative to other expensive tools.  If he builds mostly intricate small boxes, I get it.  But for me, rail/stile, roughing tennons and grooves/rabbets make up a significant amount of what I use the router table for.  Using a well made homemade fence is quicker and easier for most of these than fiddle-farting around with fine adjustment knobs.  Especially for bits, like rail/stile, that have bearings on them.  All the indexing fence does is add error to a super quick setup.  Sometimes it's nice to be able to fine adjust some of this.  But, that still can be done without the whoop-de-do fence.
A couple years ago I made a large box (like a blanket chest) with large box joints.  First time I had used anything other than the router fence for box joints.  Once I was forced to make a quick and dirty jig for large box joints, I don't think setting up the router table fence and running the joints is any faster.  In fact, the router fence is a lot easier to screw up.  I've since made a set with a handsaw and chisels.  It didn't go perfect, but once I develop that skill I can see not using jigs for box joints/dovetails unless I'm batch producing them.

I'm not against Incra type fences and will keep mine.  There are times when it is great also.  Of all the gadgets I've bought for the shop it is pretty decent.  But, I don't see it as a "must have" in a shop.  It's still a gadget.  There are a lot of things I do consider "must have's" I bought well after throwing a ton of money into that router table.  If I were to do it again, I'd spend $5-600 and get a decent lift/router body and a couple pieces of MDF to make a router table and fence out of.  Later, after I had tried other methods of joinery and thought the Incra provided some value, add it on.

 

[mculik5]

My apologies - haven't had a chance to reply until now. Lots of good feedback. Thanks!

I'll try to address the questions asked.

About Me - Some of this was mentioned in my original post. I'm a hobbyist. I've always enjoyed low-key woodworking, but want to up my "case goods game" because I hate spending lots of money on poorly made furniture. Projects on my list include a computer desk, small media cabinet, dresser, garage cabinets, homemade SYS-Ports - things like that. In addition, I do a lot of DIY projects around the house. I'm an impatient perfectionist, and I'm much more scientific than artistic in the way I do things. I work (very) predominately in plywood. I work out of a one-car garage (that's not exclusive to woodworking), and primarily on my driveway when the weather is nice. Space efficiency and mobility are big concerns for me. As much as I'd love to build myself a stationary miter saw station, or buy a jointer/planer, those types of things are not an option right now. Also, as a space/money-constrained hobbyist, I'm a big fan of multipurpose tools. For example, the Incra Super System as a router table fence and joinery system, the TS55 as a (for the most part) table saw replacement and panel saw, the RO90 as a three-mode sander, etc.

For what it's worth, the reason I was focused on a router table for my big 2015 purchase was to cut dadoes for case goods (backs, drawer bottoms, etc.), and dovetails/box joints for drawer joinery, plus all the other things a router table is useful for.

The Kapex caught my eye because it's on sale, and the UG cart wings connected to my MFT/3 would allow me to cut plywood off the ground (I currently put the plywood on top of rigid foam on the ground and kneel/crawl on it to cut it).

Tools I Have - As far as Festool goes, I have a decent small collection started. In addition to the OF1400 I mentioned, I have a TS55, RO90, PS300, MFT/3, C15, Ti15, and the LR32 system. I also have a CT MIDI, and the aforementioned DeWalt miter saw. For jointing, I use a JessEm doweling jig. Those are my primary woodworking tools. I also have other general construction tools (Fein Multimaster, recip saw, etc.).

Tools I DON'T Have - I don't have a tablesaw, Domino, any kind of jointing/planing tools (hand or power), or any kind of "big machine" tools (band saw, drill press, etc.).

Now that you know a bit more about me, the tools I do/don't have, and what I'd like to do, let me ask my original question in a different way.

If you had ~$2K to spend on a tool (or tools) to complement what I already have and what I want to do, and that has to be movable and relatively small when stored, would you:

A. Buy a top spec router table setup (unfortunately, it doesn't make economic sense to step up to a top spec router table over time, so it's kind of an all or nothing thing)
B. Take advantage of the Kapex sale and buy the miter saw I will probably inevitably buy later if I don't do it now
C. Buy something else, like the new SawStop jobsite saw, a Domino, etc.
D. Save the money and use what I've got

Again, thanks for your help! Just looking for different opinions to make sure I'm thinking this through fully.

 

[grbmds]

If you have the OF1400, guide rails, and the MFT3, I found that I can cut dadoes accurately and easily with the additional purchase of the guide stops to allow the router to utilize the track. There are also numerous references on the web for jigs meant for cutting dadoes with handheld routers. Given the OF1400 capability (no better dust collection around) and the other possible jigs to build, I don't think you need to buy a router table to cut dadoes accurately if that is your main focus.

 

[jplemons]

It really does depend on what you envision doing with that router table. As mentioned, if just routing dadoes, I currently use a portion of my track turned around to give me a straight edge, line things up and do it this way. Probably not the best, but it's been OK for my shop cabinets. Also, for cutting down ply, I have a set of Toughbuilt sawhorse. I put 2x4s in between, then lay some scrap 1x3s across and put down a sheet of pink foam insulation -- presto. Works great and it all breaks down and stores away.

Personally, I'd opt for the Incra setup. While not "needed" I think it'll work out well in my shop and help teach me some cool stuff. I'd also get a Domino and some more clamps -- either for glue-ups, general use, or some MFT/3 specific ones. From there, there's always something you could buy.

Overall, I just think the money spent on a Kapex could buy you far more. And in the end, 10% is not much of deal to me.

 

[jacko9]

Buy a 8" wide Jointer or a good quality Cabinet Table saw or get the Domino Joiner my suggestions in order of priority.  If your are holing to build furniture keep in mind that you almost never get straight stable hardwood and even if you do see a board that looks straight after you cut into it the boards will distort see the book ("Understanding Wood" by R. Bruce Hoadley).

Jack

 

[JayStPeter]

I'd ask yourself what you want to add to your next project that you can't do now.
Solid wood is a game changer.

A. Buy a top spec router table setup (unfortunately, it doesn't make economic sense to step up to a top spec router table over time, so it's kind of an all or nothing thing)

What are you hoping to get out of the router table?  What projects are you going to do that need that?  (BTW, I completely disagree with your paren'ed statement).  If you want to make lots of nice decorative box/dovetail boxes.  This option makes absolute sense.  If you want to get the best bang for your buck for general purpose, spending $2K on a router table doesn't.  I still say the interwebs and mfrs. make way too much out of fancy router tables.  The 90% solution is a board with a router bolted to the bottom and a plywood fence.  I sound like an old carmudgen, but it's true.  Also, for dresser sized drawers the router table fences aren't great.  Boards that big just don't do well in them.  If you plan on drawers, either a dedicated dovetail jig of some sort, or a saw and chisels are your best bet.  I poo poo'ed the idea of a saw and chisels for years, but it's pretty fun and not as time consuming as you think.

B. Take advantage of the Kapex sale and buy the miter saw I will probably inevitably buy later if I don't do it now

I understand your frustration with your miter saw.  Your argument for the Kapex says it'll fix all the frustrations, but that's not true.  Many of your frustrations come from not having a miter station of any sort.  Just adding some sort of fence to what you have is part of the battle.  But, I agree a std 10" is limiting and not necessarily worth adding an miter station to.  But, a couple pieces of wood will make a fence that allows repeatability for now, which is really the most important thing.  Over the years I upgraded from a cheap 10, to a CMS 12 with nice dual lasers (former Delta model), to a sliding 12 without lasers.  Honestly, I would rather my miter saw have the nice dual lasers.  They were cool, but it's a nice to have.  The lasers on my Delta burned out after a few years and I miss them sometimes, but not enough that I had to spend the big bucks on a Kapex when I upgraded for the capacity of a slider.  All my miter saws went into various home made miter saw stations and were able to do good work with little frustration (except the Delta that wouldn't stay square, much more important than friggin lasers).

C. Buy something else, like the new SawStop jobsite saw, a Domino, etc.

Unlike your other options, solid wood is a game changer.  Solid wood allows so much more creativity.
I'd start with a portable planer ($500).  You also need a way to joint the wood surface.  There are jigs you can build for the planer that will allow you to joint with the planer, or handplanes.  Easy to edge joint on the MFT.  But, ultimately you'll probably want a proper jointer.  You also mentioned the table saw ... more important to me than a router table by a mile.  You can make frame and panel sides, instead of flat plywood.  And legs and solid tops and other things that don't look like plywood boxes.

D. Save the money and use what I've got

Ding, buy what you need when you need it.  Fit the tool purchases to the projects.  I know there is some back and forth here since you can't deal with raw lumber.  Part of the reason you might want to look at things to allow you to process solid wood.

 

[jacko9]

If you live in Texas, Tom Bellamere just posted a portable planer for a "give away" price.  Look in the classified if he hasn't sold it yet.

Jack

 

[Neal W]

Neal W, I would greatly appreciate any info regarding the Triton router on the Incra table and your BT 3000 LS conversion. I just picked up the TRA001 and Incra table with wonder fence. Regarding the BT, I've owned a 3100 for about ten years and was considering upgrading until I bought my track saw. Any thing a can do to make the BT more accurate would be great. I gave up on the SMT a long time ago and the fence needs to much attention.

I set the incra table top on a couple of older "stock" base cabinets my neighbor was throwing out.  Put those on two pieces of OSB and added some casters.  I also added a switch on the outside to turn it on and off.  One of the cabinet bases was a four drawer unit so I have storage for things like bits and wrenches and stuff.  The other base is just there trying not to get I the way of the router.

My router does not have the crank and screw for the under table adjustments.  I make do, but I do wish I had that.  BOught it "used" (but never used by the person who purchased it) for a reasonable discount to a new one.  It has plenty of power to get the job done.  I do like the soft start and variable speed. 

The incra fence is very nice to use.  It dials in so nicely.  I do have to practice with the box joints and things some more, I just ran out of weather and time last year.  The router table makes a mess and then some.  I find it very easy to set up on the router table and get easily repeatable cuts.  I did cope and stick rail and stile doors and they turned out very well for my first time. 

My one "issue" or pet peeve about the incra mounting plate is it seems to require constant adjustment of the little set screws to keep the plate level with the table top.  I'm not sure how to keep them from vibrating loose, perhaps some Loctite would work. 

Attaching the incra fence to my BT is one of my summer projects.  I have acquired a couple of the accessory tables and have stopped using the sliding miter table.  I did find a good deal on a very gently used Incra Miter 1000 gauge.  I really like it.  I find myself using the miter 1000 gauge to do repeatable cross cuts more than my craftsman miter saw though. 

I did take some time to work on the rip fence last year.  I feel like I've got it dialed in pretty well at this point.  I just thought I would be a fun challenge to see if I could figure out a way to fit the incra fence to the table saw and get reasonable results.

 

[grbmds]

Neal W, I would greatly appreciate any info regarding the Triton router on the Incra table and your BT 3000 LS conversion. I just picked up the TRA001 and Incra table with wonder fence. Regarding the BT, I've owned a 3100 for about ten years and was considering upgrading until I bought my track saw. Any thing a can do to make the BT more accurate would be great. I gave up on the SMT a long time ago and the fence needs to much attention.

My router does not have the crank and screw for the under table adjustments.  I make do, but I do wish I had that.  BOught it "used" (but never used by the person who purchased it) for a reasonable discount to a new one.  It has plenty of power to get the job done.  I do like the soft start and variable speed.

My one "issue" or pet peeve about the incra mounting plate is it seems to require constant adjustment of the little set screws to keep the plate level with the table top.  I'm not sure how to keep them from vibrating loose, perhaps some Loctite would work. 

I bought my Incra table combo early this year. The insert has the set screws but there are "cap screws" threaded into the MDF to around the edge of the cutout for leveling the insert. They are so tight that, once they are set, they just don't move. I have the Jessem MastrLift. The crank takes a number of turns to get it up and down for bit changing, but I like that feature as, when adjusting it for cutting height of the bit, its accuracy can't be beat. I can get it right where I want it with very few practice cuts. Each turn only raises the lift a small amount.