Cheese
Member
This is similar to what's happened recently when the owners of new vehicles have gone rogue and the OEM manufacturers needed to intervene and render the vehicle useless via the internet so that the police could make the arrest.
BMW has patented a new screw head designed to prevent non-dealer repairs
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luvmytoolz
Member
I recall watching a couple months ago a company that sold home automation/temp control units got bought by another company, who then retrospectively changed the license terms from a perpetual to subscription, and pushed out an update that bricked the unit if you didn't take out a subscription.Another aspect of Right To Repair is ownership. Earlier this month, it seems that Porsches across Russia suddenly stopped working because a malicious signal was sent to them. What this really brings forward is whether or not your car is your car. If a company can just brick your car, for whatever reason and at whatever time, then do you really "own" it?
Porsches across Russia suddenly stop working
‘It’s possible this was done deliberately,’ says car dealershipwww.the-independent.com
Wouldn't be the first time that's happened!
Packard
Member
My old GPS device offered free map updates online. The last update I downloaded consisted of some minor road updates and substantially more detailed scenery at the sides of the highways. It also exceeded my GPS’s memory capacity. There was no way to revert to the old maps, and there was no way to only download the eastern half of the country. Basically, the updated map made the GPS unit a brick. I had to buy a new one.
You could opt to download Canada’s roads or not. You could opt to download Mexico’s roads or not. And the additional detail in the scenery seemed to me just a path to using up more memory. Why could they not allow you to download just the Eastern or Western part of the USA? And how did the shrubbery detail (in place of solid green) enhance the driving experience?
NOTE: I only know what the update consisted of because I bought a newer version with the update include.
I was convinced at the time that they did this to make the older units obsolete. Customer service offered no remedy. (My current GPS units are from Chrysler and are integrated into the dash).
onocoffee
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That's no different than the big computer companies, when they quit "supporting" older Operating Systems. The tech drives away from not only the old hardware, but the Firmware too.
Years ago, I had a Lifetime update agreement with an image editing Program, when you could still buy them as DVDs, in retail stores. The company was sold to JASC, and it was invalidated at that point. I really don't understand how this is legal. Why is the purchasing company not required to honor those previous agreements? It is likely written in the fine print, that nobody ever fully understands.
My 2014 Camaro had a built-in phone. It worked through the screen and sound system, wholly independent of a separate mobile phone. It could share the contacts, through Bluetooth, but didn't require that to function. Eight years later, the entire network of the old 2G platform was shut down, presumably because the mobile phone market had gotten so saturated. FiveG was in the hands of the early adopters, 4g for most everyone else, who knows about 3?
I assume that there was some kind of backwards-compatibility issue somewhere along the line here? Though I have no idea, it just seems to make sense.
Years ago, I had a Lifetime update agreement with an image editing Program, when you could still buy them as DVDs, in retail stores. The company was sold to JASC, and it was invalidated at that point. I really don't understand how this is legal. Why is the purchasing company not required to honor those previous agreements? It is likely written in the fine print, that nobody ever fully understands.
My 2014 Camaro had a built-in phone. It worked through the screen and sound system, wholly independent of a separate mobile phone. It could share the contacts, through Bluetooth, but didn't require that to function. Eight years later, the entire network of the old 2G platform was shut down, presumably because the mobile phone market had gotten so saturated. FiveG was in the hands of the early adopters, 4g for most everyone else, who knows about 3?
I assume that there was some kind of backwards-compatibility issue somewhere along the line here? Though I have no idea, it just seems to make sense.
Packard
Member
Actually, I do make a distinction.
It costs money to support computers. And older systems may not be compatible with the changes in newer ones. So the engineers have to put in additional work to support older systems. At some point the cost to update the older systems vs the good-will-benefit the company gets for doing so, no longer makes sense.
But in the GPS example, the update was designed to obsolete the older devices. It was purposeful. A simple warning would have sufficed, “Note: GPS devices prior to XX2000 will not have sufficient memory to support the latest update.” Or even better, a roadblock that has the GPS unit saying, “This device has insufficient memory to support this update. Please continue to use the current maps or update to a newer GPS device.”
In any case the purpose becomes apparent when I observed how they consumed all that memory. It was designed from the get-go to render the older units obsolete.
So it is not the same as not supplying updates to older computers. They are perfectly safe to use as long as they are no longer hooked up to the Internet. Admittedly, that does limit the utility, but the computer maker is not at fault. The fault lies with the Internet malefactors.
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That's a very kind description ....
luvmytoolz
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leakyroof
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I wish...You should have been around a few years ago when the 3G network started to be 'Sunsetted' or going to Sunset as we were hearing it called.
Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles that had their Infotainment System built to use 3G were out of luck for updates, or, most importantly, the ability to upgrade the existing system to 4G, since it was still the majority out there , with 5G just taking hold.
NOPE, no such way to rework the Hardware in the existing NAV modules or Telematic Modules. And you couldn't take a slightly later JLR model that had 4G and backwards install it into the older 3G models from what JLR was saying. So, some features would continue to work, while some other features that really needed a Cellular Network to function, no longer would.
Some very unhappy customers.....
As for aftermarket NAV, yeah, I got sucked into that one as well. LIFETIME updates and support for a Garmin that I bought, NUVI unit . But, as the maps grew, the data grew, and now my GPS has a Data Card in it to supplement the internal memory that the Unit came with. Once that's full, I'm probably out of luck. But by then, who knows, Elon Musk could be selling GPS implants for your head.....
MacBoy
Member
Elon Musk could be selling GPS implants for your head.....
That’s my current fear: Elon throws a temper tantrum in the middle of the night and bricks the COVID-era HW3 Tesla models.
leakyroof
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What..??? He's not a STABLE genius....
For Modern Cars, the worst thing for ALL OF US is that all the electronics are so integrated, you don't have the option to go with an Aftermarket System usually as a personal choice. Radios stopped being just Radios a long time ago. Tuner modules are hidden somewhere else in the vehicle, so what you see is a display module and screen more and more, that's a Gateway to multiple systems, so you have a much harder time substituting it with something else.
rmhinden
Member
d
Bob
If that happened there would be very big class action lawsuit almost immediately. There are millions of these cars on the road.
Bob
Packard
Member
I had an old (1987) Acura Legend (a really nice car). I kept it for 260,000 miles, but somewhere along the line, the anti-lock brake system failed. Luckily for me, this was a factory add-on and not an integrated system. So the brakes worked just fine without the anti-lock feature.What..??? He's not a STABLE genius....
For Modern Cars, the worst thing for ALL OF US is that all the electronics are so integrated, you don't have the option to go with an Aftermarket System usually as a personal choice. Radios stopped being just Radios a long time ago. Tuner modules are hidden somewhere else in the vehicle, so what you see is a display module and screen more and more, that's a Gateway to multiple systems, so you have a much harder time substituting it with something else.
The cost of replacing an integrated system (all modern cars have them integrated) would have forced an early retirement. As it was, a brake job (needed 4 new rotors @$250.00 each) and an impending timing belt ($900.00) and a generous receipt from a charity for the donation, tipped the decision to retire it at 260,000 miles. (One of my all-time favorite cars.)
mino
Member
Nope.Another aspect of Right To Repair is ownership. Earlier this month, it seems that Porsches across Russia suddenly stopped working because a malicious signal was sent to them. What this really brings forward is whether or not your car is your car. If a company can just brick your car, for whatever reason and at whatever time, then do you really "own" it?
Porsches across Russia suddenly stop working
‘It’s possible this was done deliberately,’ says car dealership
In the new 'techno-feudalism' being gradually established, you are the property of the powers that be. Kinda like in China where you can only rent land for 70 yrs, but cannot buy it ..
After 70/40 years of totalitarian rule, Eastern Europe, Russia especially, just piss on that as a society. This results in even minor tech issues being blown up in the media. They simply see any "control" attempt as a hostile action. Be it from a company a foreign gov or even a local one. In the West, the same stuff tends to go under the carpet pretty fast as people mostly trust the companies/gov. This makes comparing any reporting not really practical. What is an outrage in RU is a non-event in the West and vice versa.
Let's avoid that discussion here.
Mini Me
Member
By the time the lawyers finished years of legal action the cars won't have been driven for years.
My technician son told me last night that he has been handed a project to get a BYD (which the dealer owns) going so they can sell it as a used car. 18 months ago all the dash and wiring loom was pulled out to try and find the problems it had and rectify them and so far no one has been able to diagnose it so it has sat in the workshop for all that time. He used to work on them and now they have decided to ask him to look at it and see what can be done. These days it is not unusual to have long term diagnosis and repair issues in cars but not this long.
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That was the same situation with the Camaro. I received an actual physical letter from GM stating that the 2G functionality was going to sundown. (IIRC it was several months, at least 6) The car's internal sound system would still function with the bluetooth integration of my mobile phone, but not as a stand-alone. I contacted my local dealer, asking about some kind of "plug-in" or replacement module, to up-date this to a newer standard. They said no, and there was no plan to do so.I wish...You should have been around a few years ago when the 3G network started to be 'Sunsetted' or going to Sunset as we were hearing it called.
Jaguar and Land Rover vehicles that had their Infotainment System built to use 3G were out of luck for updates, or, most importantly, the ability to upgrade the existing system to 4G, since it was still the majority out there , with 5G just taking hold.
NOPE, no such way to rework the Hardware in the existing NAV modules or Telematic Modules. And you couldn't take a slightly later JLR model that had 4G and backwards install it into the older 3G models from what JLR was saying. So, some features would continue to work, while some other features that really needed a Cellular Network to function, no longer would.
Some very unhappy customers.....
As for aftermarket NAV, yeah, I got sucked into that one as well. LIFETIME updates and support for a Garmin that I bought, NUVI unit . But, as the maps grew, the data grew, and now my GPS has a Data Card in it to supplement the internal memory that the Unit came with. Once that's full, I'm probably out of luck. But by then, who knows, Elon Musk could be selling GPS implants for your head.....
All of this just happened to coincide with the peak of the used car price spike, in the summer of '22, so I sold it.
The second owner will never even know that this feature ever existed, so it won't ever matter again.
Yes, very annoying.
TiVO did this years ago, with their "lifetime" subscription. This was not your life or even the life of the company itself, like if it was sold/acquired. It was the life of the machine. If the physical machine failed, your "lifetime subscription" dies with it. "5 years or so" was the generally expected lifecycle, so you are taking your chances.
onocoffee
Member
The point though - is not the outrage in Russia, it's the fact that your vehicle can be shut down remotely, for whatever reason.
Packard
Member
A bit off-topic but I think interesting.
My father had a 1967 Corvette Stingray coupe with the 427 engine and tri-power (three, two-barrel carburetors). Years later that identical car would sell at auction for $500,000.00 (it cost $4,000.00 used in 1967 with 3,000 miles on it).
Understandably he was concerned about theft.
His mechanic rigged a “anti-theft device” to the car. It consisted of a in-line fuse holder, a toggle switch, and a slow burn fuse.
If my father forgot to toggle the switch to “run”, the car would start and drive for about a half a mile and then die. In an era when anti-theft devices could easily be bypassed, this likely would have worked better.
The toggle switch was hidden under the dash. The inline fuse was hidden in the engine compartment. I have no idea how it was wired. But I know from my father’s forgetfulness that it would, in fact, disable the car. There was probably $5.00 worth of parts involved.
At speed the car would transition from a pretty good car to a very bad airplane, as it would try to lift off the ground. The rayon cord tires left much to be desired.
The side pipes were included, but those wheels are not accurate. The OEM wheels were steel, with a small hub cap and “glamor rings”.
My father had a 1967 Corvette Stingray coupe with the 427 engine and tri-power (three, two-barrel carburetors). Years later that identical car would sell at auction for $500,000.00 (it cost $4,000.00 used in 1967 with 3,000 miles on it).
Understandably he was concerned about theft.
His mechanic rigged a “anti-theft device” to the car. It consisted of a in-line fuse holder, a toggle switch, and a slow burn fuse.
If my father forgot to toggle the switch to “run”, the car would start and drive for about a half a mile and then die. In an era when anti-theft devices could easily be bypassed, this likely would have worked better.
The toggle switch was hidden under the dash. The inline fuse was hidden in the engine compartment. I have no idea how it was wired. But I know from my father’s forgetfulness that it would, in fact, disable the car. There was probably $5.00 worth of parts involved.
At speed the car would transition from a pretty good car to a very bad airplane, as it would try to lift off the ground. The rayon cord tires left much to be desired.
The side pipes were included, but those wheels are not accurate. The OEM wheels were steel, with a small hub cap and “glamor rings”.
Mini Me
Member
My father used the ashtray as the anti-theft switch, pull it out to start the car and push it is to prevent it starting.
luvmytoolz
Member
This is exactly what a think tank here (sponsored at arms length by our gov) is proposing to mandate for ALL vehicles!
All in the interests purely for public safety of course!
It's just a horrifying thought when you factor in all the other draconian legislation actually being passed.