Bosch to Compete Against Saw Stop

JimH2 said:
I agree with you on the Dewalt saws with the geared fence being the differentiator. They must have a patent on the design because if not all saws would have it.
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If they do it had expired long time ago.
 
jimbo51 said:
JimH2 The Sawstop contractor saw is a lot bigger especially in height and weighs 160 lbs more. The mobility kit has much smaller wheels. If you can set up and leave for a couple of days then I would agree.  However if you have to set up in the yard everyday then I do not see the contractor saw being a great option.
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Agree. I was presenting it as a better option in terms of quality than the job site saw which I see as a let down. Before spending $1300 I'd consider looking at the DeWalt contractor saw unless the quest is for the SawStop safety feature and one can live with the less than adequate construction.
 
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious. Seems like a stupid move instead of going for a much less serious result.
 
grbmds said:
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious. Seems like a stupid move instead of going for a much less serious result.
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They're probably trying to be realistic. A 3.5 mm cut is really not that deep and you'd be lucky to get away with that from blade contact. It's probably not even enough to fully cut a tendon.

That depth is also set at a contact speed of the finger of 1 m/s which is pretty fast and a speed that is probably reached in just a small percentage of all accidents.
 
grbmds said:
Unless I read the rule wrong, it would limit the depth of cut to 3.5mm which is more than 1/8" (right?). That's a deep cut; maybe not finger severing but still a deep cut and, in some case, the result would still be very serious.
Click to expand...

I was also concerned about the 4mm depth because it seemed excessive, I managed to ferret out these items.

They quoted that current testing yielded these results: SawStop table saw tests ranged from 1.5 mm to 2.8 mm and the depth of cut for the Bosch table saw tests ranged from 1.9 mm to 2.5 mm.

As far as the 4mm number is concerned;
"The allowable depth of cut in the probe represents the quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration, which is the difference between a minor injury and a severe injury to arteries, nerves, or tendons that requires microsurgery to repair. This threshold is 4 mm from the surface of the skin."

"The quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration of a human finger is a 4.0 mm cut from the surface of the skin, and the mean epidermal thickness for a fingertip is 0.369 mm ± 0.112 mm, or a maximum thickness of approximately 0.5 mm."

"This 3.5 mm value represents the quantitative threshold between a simple and complex laceration of a human finger, as measured by the test probe."

 
I scanned the first 200 pages which I believe covered all the major points. One reason for the length of the document is that the same information is repeated in different sections.

All of the issues which have been raised in this forum are addressed. However, I imagine that the arguments and analyses provided in this document will change the mind of very few people. The basic argument in this document is that the large number of injuries and overall cost to society warrant the imposition of the automatic safety device. Many of the objections are based on the person's personal views regarding safety. Therefore the benefit to society argument will not be persuasive. Also, many people may object to the methods used in the analyses and the costs assumed at various points.

One point noted that I had not considered is that the current technologies may be extremely difficult and costly to implement on the Shopsmith multi-tool. Without the table saw, Shopsmith would face a very difficult future.

Even if the proposal is accepted, it calls for a three year implementation delay. Therefore there is quite a bit of time for this to be modified or even stopped completely.
 
jimbo51 said:
I scanned the first 200 pages
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Scanned? You meant downloading...it's a pdf file from the link.

The report is welcomed because it points to the right direction like the implementation of seat belts and airbags (soon all the fancy safety add-ons like lane departure warning, blind spot warning, etc. previously available in only luxury vehicles will be standard features in ordinary cars like side mirrors!). The report benefits me little as I already own a SawStop. but the technology or the like can benefit every user when the price point is brought down. I may be able to get SawStop parts cheaper when the competition is widespread.

As I understand it, some are against the SawStop and not the safety feature per se. They could include some of those who've bought the Bosch saw. When the finger saving technology is made mandatory, people who refuse to adopt the change still have the option of buying the old model saws which I figure will go down hugely in prices -- new or second hand.

2025 would be a reasonable estimate when all new saws will have the upgraded safety feature.

 
What I found interesting was:

there were fewer than 5000 cases in which a limb/digit was lost. 
- weighed against how many people used a saw in that year and how many man hours were actually complied by those users ?  They didn't have that info, which is kinda necessary to gauge risk.

Nearly half of all the injuries were to retirees. 
- [blink]

The moratorium is very close to the SS patent expiration dates. 

The decision will be in session, not a fill in the blank exercise that's sent in.
 
"there were fewer than 5000 cases in which a limb/digit was lost. 
- weighed against how many people used a saw in that year and
how many man hours were actually complied by those users ? 
They didn't have that info, which is kinda necessary to gauge risk."

I would be interested to see a breakdown of injuries to home hobbyist
or the casual table saw user vice those injuries which occurred on the
job and reported at some rate, maybe x thousands of hours per injury.
I really don't have an idea of which way it would go. Most times injury
rates are given per 100K manhours, at least those that OSHA and the
BLS report for workplace injuries.

Looking at the table on page 20, over 44% of the injuries occurred to
individuals 61 or older. And 67% occurred at home, but that designation
seems foggy to me. Is ALL the data derived from non-workplace related
injuries, or does 'home' include a workman performing work on a clients
home and (in this case ) using a table saw.

I have three 9-fingered friends, but it's still not clear to me that we need this
thrust upon us to fatten the coffers of SawStop LLC. I know, they just want
everyone to be safe and keep all their digits, so do I. I also want the choice
to buy the saw that I want, and not one the Mr. Gass insists I need. Which
may or may not be a SawStop, a Bosch REAXX, or some other make table
saw, but I guess we'll never know about the Bosch choice any time soon.
 
9-fingered friends...that reminds me of a former co-worker I recently chatted with.

He had a tablesaw injury last Oct. (or summer) that required a trip to the ER and over a dozen of stitches to his finger. It was a painful experience to him and it took a long time for the finger to completely heal. His wife wanted him to get a SawStop, but after weighing how much woodworking he would still want to do, he decided to go with a Festool tracksaw.

So the circular saw + track is another option out there (especially for sheet work or large workpieces). For large sheets, I use a saw guide.

 

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It's always a mystery to me, if you need a new saw and the saws with safety features cost about the same as saws without and are also very high quality tools, why you wouldn't go with the safe one. Maybe even if you don't need a new saw. We all can make mistakes no matter how careful we are. I guess everyone has their priorities. Mine are ensuring I keep my fingers even if I happen to lose concentration or make a mistake one day.
 
grbmds  A low cost portable table saw and a Sawstop are much different in price. This point was covered in the proposal.

I deleted the double post and comment. Du-oh.

I am old. When I was growing up, scanning meant eyeball scanning not using a machine/gadget/device.
 
jimbo51 said:
grbmds  A low cost portable table saw and a Sawstop are much different in price. This point was covered in the proposal.
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Absolutely, just as there are vast differences between various categories of tools and what you purchase depends on your use of the tools. However, many refuse to buy from Sawstop because of personal feelings about the the company's owner. If you're going to buy a cabinet saw, contractor's saw, or a jobsite saw, it has always seemed to me that, given the quality of the Sawstop saws, it doesn't make much sense to miss the opportunity for safety because of your feelings about a company. I guess, by those standards, no one in the US should buy Festool tools or any tools with any parts made in China if you feel that you should buy US made tools. Would certainly narrow down the field of available tools these days in our global economy. It would not necessarily result in a shop full of better tools either.
 
jimbo51 said:
If you're going to buy a cabinet saw, contractor's saw, or a jobsite saw, it has always seemed to me that, given the quality of the Sawstop saws, it doesn't make much sense to miss the opportunity for safety because of your feelings about a company.
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This is certainly true.  There is an abundance of research in psychology showing that people consistently overestimate their abilities.  This means that one should be very skeptical of any table saw user who believes that he or she is too good to need a Sawstop.  Presumably everyone who cuts off one of his or her fingers with a table saw at some point thinks, "I never thought that would happen!!"
 
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