Built in Bookcase/Desk w/Mantle

[tiralie]

I am starting this project and thought it would be a good idea to post as I build.
The client wanted two book cases for their den with one of the bookcases able to fit a small flat screen TV and one as a desk. One of the clients requests was that the cabinets not take up too much space in the room.
Currently the bottom cases are approx. 36 1/2" wide x 26 1/2” tall x 14 1/4" deep. The top cases are 36 1/2" wide x 9 3/4" which may be a little narrow.

When I visited the client I took pictures and measured the room so I could use Sketchup to design the cabinets. As I was designing the cabinets, I noticed that the fireplace didn't really suit the cabinets so I also made some small changes to the mantle.

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After adding some divided lite doors to the top of each cabinet this is the design (below) they have approved.
The cabinets carcass will be maple veneered chipboard with Poplar face frames and maple desk tops.
The cabinets will be finished (sprayed) white lacquer with a clear coat to match existing white trim. The table tops will be maple finished with Poly or Varnish.

I will also be changing the Fireplace Mantle as the existing one lacks a little drama.

I will probably start building in the next week or so and post photo's and progress as I go.
If you have any comments or questions,  please let me know.
Thanks
Tim

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[lumbajac]

Very nice design... I think adjusting the mantle as well is a huge improvement for the overall flow.

Can I ask you, or any others who want to chime in, how you learned to use Google Sketchup so efficiently?  Some book, website tutorials, or trial-and-error?

Thanks.

 

[peter halle]

Tim,

I too like the design and admire your Sketchup skills.  It might be a nice up sell to incorporate something between the two cabinets over the mantle.

Corey,  sketchup has some tutorials online.  There are others also.  Sketch up tutorials

Peter

 

[Brice Burrell]

Hmm, I just did a project nearly identical to that, maybe a month ago.  Well, at least that's how it started out.  In the end the upper doors were nixed and the units extended all the way to the fireplace.  The empty space between the fireplace and the units looks out of place to me.  Of course when you run the cases all the way the mantle takes on an entirely different look.  Looking forward to see how this comes out.

 

[jonny round boy]

The empty space between the fireplace and the units looks out of place to me.

What Brice said.

I think it looks odd. The cabinets need to meet the fireplace.

 

[tiralie]

The empty space between the fireplace and the units looks out of place to me.

What Brice said.

I think it looks odd. The cabinets need to meet the fireplace.

Jonny, Brice
Thanks for the quick comments.
Here's a (fast) reworked version for comparison.
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My original thought was to keep the "furniture" look while having it built in and hence the space between the fireplace and the cabinet.
A couple comments on why I designed the cabinets as I did originally: I wanted the cabinets to move your eye vertically (up) rather then horizontally because the space feels a bit "compressed. I find that the wider cabinets create a much larger (visual) presence in the space and may dominate the room too much.
The client didn't want to have the cabinets occupy too much of the room (physically) but visually this new design looks Ok to me. Not better so much, as different.
This may be good. Thoughts?

In any event, I will show this alternative design to the client.
Tim

 

[Jesus Aleman]

Tim, we just went through a similar situation in our house.  One consideration is to ask your client what will they be using the space above the fireplace for?  In the original picture they had a series of pictures above the mantel, Is this what they intend to do.    I like the what you done on the second sketch by tieing in the three components (bookcase, mantel, bookcase).  However, I think the space above the mantel would make the bookcases stick out too much (take this as my opinion only).   If this was my place, I would suggest one of two options (based on the second sketch):

Option 1:  Place some artwork above fireplace with some recessed lighting from above to highlight it.  This would require changing your layout so that the crown molding (on the wall above the fireplace) would move off the wall to align with the front of the mantel.  Add recessed lighting behind the crown.  Perhaps lowering the mantel a bit (from the 2nd sketch) could provide better proportions.  I think this would add depth to the entire wall without overtaking the room.
Option 2:  TV above fireplace.  Use your second sketch.  The disadvantage is that the TV on this position is too high for normal viewing. 

A question for you.  Would you consider adding doors to the work surfaces?  Those doors that open and then slide to the back (out of the way).  This may further make the space in the middle (fireplace)  the focal point?

Anyways, take these with a grain of salt.  Ultimately, it is your clients decision.

Cheers.

 

[woodguy7]

As always everyone likes different things.  So im sorry but i preffered the first design with the cabinets away from the fire surround & the mantle overhanging.  If the space between the surround & the cabinet was the same colour as the rest of the walls then i am sure it would look better.

But as Jesus says, its up to your clients.

 

[peter halle]

Pardon my 2 cents worth.  In my opinion, the fireplace mantle width is what is is making it look odd.  Maybe breaking up the space above the mantle either with raised panels or applied moldings to break up the space (even if they do artwork there) would help by creating at least shadow lines.  Maybe making the panels / areas narrower would accent the height.  I drew three, but maybe doing four would be better.

Pardon my Sketchup skills.  I am very rusty.

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Peter

 

[jmbfestool]

ON the right unit at the bottom you have curved legs/support.  Your unit is against the wall and you skirting runs in to the unit correct? Well the curved bottom you can still see the wall would just try and scribe abit of skirting to go in-between or would you keep the unit skirting thickness away from the wall?

Jmb

 

[rookie08]

Nice work on the Sketchup.  Seems making the extra effort to learn to use it well, definitely pays off!

Design looks great however I'm wondering if with having the TV on the left, and the closed doors on the bottom cabinet on the left, might make the room look "heavy" towards the left, if that makes sense.

I like Jesus idea's of matching doors on the right to help balance it out.  Giving the doors the ability to fold out and slide in will also allow them to have a few small hidden shelves for extra storage while still allowing them enough comfort to get their knees under the writing surface.

I'd keep the cabinets in your original design as the more narrow look allows one to focus on the fireplace, and then whatever is above it; then their eyes go left and right to your beautiful glass cabinets, and that great crown.

Again to echo Jesus, having a piece of art with recessed eyeball lights on a separate switch over the fireplace might be a great option.  A friend of mine did this and it  looks like something out of Architectural Digest.  Since they are open to the TV being visible perhaps they can place it above the mantle; most of the brackets allow you to tilt down so you have a better viewing angle.  Maybe they'll ask you to build a frame for the TV like Panasonic does and they can have different art pieces change (again like Panasonic does) on the screen.  Art and TV in the same space!  [smile]

No matter what your client ends up choosing, they are going to be happy, because you will be able to show them exactly what they are going to get with your great use of Sketchup!

Below is the link for the Panasonic frames to give you an idea of what I'm referring to.

http://www2.panasonic.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/vBYOPHomePage?storeId=15001

Cheers!

 

[jmbfestool]

As always everyone likes different things.  So im sorry but i preffered the first design with the cabinets away from the fire surround & the mantle overhanging.  If the space between the surround & the cabinet was the same colour as the rest of the walls then i am sure it would look better.

But as Jesus says, its up to your clients.

I agree with wood guy! Just what I was going to put he beat me to it!  I preferred  original. I think you need to bring the fire place into the unit  more cus looking at it just looks odd at the moment just having it against the fire place I feel it needs the fire place to be more incorporated into the units if you did do it like the second sketch up.   Like you said you wanted them look free standing but built in I think your first attempt did that well and it does not look like it would dominate the room because you can see  more wall and like wood guy said if you painted it the same colours it give you the feeling your room is bigger

Jmb

 

[AlexThePalex]

I also prefer the first design with the space in between. The second design makes it look so massive. woodguy's idea of using the same background for that space make a lot of sense. And I also agree with Peter that the mantle of the fireplace is what makes it look odd. That crown molding is a bit over the top for my taste. I understand it is very fashionable in America, but for my European taste, it's a bit overused. A bit too 19th century also.
 

 

[peter halle]

I know that I have offered my opinions, but in an effort to help Tim out (unsolicited) I downloaded his image of the existing room and played with it to highlight some details of the room so that others could sense what was going on there beyond this wall.  There is raised panel wainscoting, etc.  This image does not do the room justice, but by playing with various things it does emphasize shadow lines and details.  Tim did not all the details in his drawing for obvious reasons - they were meant for the owners who already could visualize their home..

Tim,  I did not mean to step on your toes - just trying to help you get more options.

I would suggest that you think about considering an applied picture frame style molding on the pilasters (verticals) of the mantle to create shadow lines which would break up the visual width.  Then, if necessary, I would look at the imitated plinths and try to incorporate something vertical to make the eye think that they are more vertical versus horizontal.

You have a tough one here, I hope that you take all this as constructive.

Peter

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[Brice Burrell]

I'll throw out some of the design considerations on my recent job since they are so similar. Here is how things played out for me.  It wasn't my job, I was hired as a sub to do the built ins.  The space was slightly bigger than Tim's job both in width and ceiling height.  I had no part in the first round of the design.  The first thing to get to the bottom of was how would actually use the area.  The desk would have a computer and a shared desk space for both husband and wife to work at.  This desk really would be used daily.  The other side would be their entertainment center, large screen TV on a super spiffy bracket, cable box, sound system, X box/play station, DVD and so on.  The mantle use would change seasonally with family pictures some of the year, holiday displays or maybe artwork.  They wanted an outlet on top of the mantle for Christmas lights.       

The space between the units was the first thing I didn't like when I first saw the drawings.  When I mentioned this and the fact that having the cases go all the way to fireplace would give them more usable space, everyone seemed to agree it should be changed.  Then electrical/AV needed to be factored in the design (this was my challenge and I largely left them out this end of it).  I asked them if they realistically expected to keep the glass upper doors closed most of the time since they'd want access to the storage for the desk and all the AV crap.  Between the inconvenience of opening/closing and the additional cost they decided to pass on the upper doors.  Above mantle, I suggested recessed lights, we settled on two fish eye lights.  The mantle itself, no decision was made.  We literally made up the design and built the mantle two hours before we finished the job. 

Another thing to factor in is the fireplace, our job it was no longer functional.  If it had been there are code requirements to consider for how close you can have combustible materials.  In and nutshell, that's how things played out for me,  I don't know if any of this helps you.  Good luck and keep us posted.

 

[tiralie]

Can I ask you, or any others who want to chime in, how you learned to use Google Sketchup so efficiently?  Some book, website tutorials, or trial-and-error?

lumbajac:
Thanks for the compliment, I am not efficient with Sketchup, just persistent.
It definitely takes me less time now, but when I started I spent a lot of time making, and then deleting and redrawing until I got what I wanted. The follow me tool drove me nuts until I figured it out.
I have used and continue to use a number of books and review Youtube Videos.
The Drawing A Bookcase    How to use Groups & ComponentsGary Katz video is very good.
Sketchup is quite frustrating to use and there is a lot to learn but if you keep at it it does get easier to use. I seem to learn by having a problem to solve, and the FOG members present some of the most interesting wood working problems you can find anywhere.
As Peter has pointed out, the Google videos are a good introduction to Sketchup.
The Sketchup for Dummies book (there is a Ver. 8) is very good and his videos are good. If you search Aidan-Chopra on YouTube you will find a bunch of videos that will help you out. The book is tailored a little more to architectural rendering but it is useful for woodworkers. I often use it for reference.
The Google Sketchup 8 Hands-On books by Bonnie Roskes are very good for reference if you find yourself stuck on something.
Good luck.
Tim
I would also, if you haven't get on the Sketchup mailing list as they are now producing a digital (PDF) magazine that showcases various add on rendering engines etc. if you really want to add photographic textures to Sketchup.

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Tim,

While reading from the very beginning of this thread, I was feeling that the mantel needed some simple fluted pilasters at the minimum.  Then when I got to Peter's post, it seems like we had similar thoughts, so I'll just say that I like what Peter has come up with.  Not that I don't agree with the other posts, I think there are a lot of usable ideas here, but I'll just mention the one because that's how I was thinking .

 

[tiralie]

Tim, we just went through a similar situation in our house.  

Jesus:
It's amazing how similar problems occur in different parts of the world.

One consideration is to ask your client what will they be using the space above the fireplace for?
In the original picture they had a series of pictures above the mantel, Is this what they intend to do.    I like the what you done on the second sketch by tieing in the three components (bookcase, mantel, bookcase).  However, I think the space above the mantel would make the bookcases stick out too much (take this as my opinion only).   If this was my place, I would suggest one of two options (based on the second sketch):

I assume, (again I shouldn't) that they will put family pictures back up there after I finish the install.

Option 1:  Perhaps lowering the mantel a bit (from the 2nd sketch) could provide better proportions.  I think this would add depth to the entire wall without overtaking the room.

I think this is a great suggestion! The mantle could be lowered a bit. I may have inadvertantly added a few inches to the height in the drawing.

Option 2:  TV above fireplace.  Use your second sketch.  The disadvantage is that the TV on this position is too high for normal viewing.  

I just assumed that my client would not put a TV up there as they want to put a small one on the left hand side cabinet. I should never assume anything. I agree that a TV in this position is to high.

A question for you.  Would you consider adding doors to the work surfaces?  Those doors that open and then slide to the back (out of the way).  This may further make the space in the middle (fireplace)  the focal point?

I will try it and see what it looks like. Thinking about it in my minds eye it might make the cabinets look a little "top" heavy.

Thanks for the suggestions.

Tim

 

[Bob Mircetic]

Tim,

Just thought I'd mention one aspect that stood out to me - in my humble opinion, the top of the cabs don't quite match the bottom.  What I mean is, since the top of your cabs are wrapped in the ceiling crown, they look like architectural built ins.  But then at the bottom of the cabs you have the legs which look like furniture.

I'd suggest to either change the base of the unit and run the room's baseboard around it just as you did with the crown, or leave the legs as is but then alter the top to not wrap it in crown either.

Just my amateur opinion...

Bob

 

[tiralie]

ON the right unit at the bottom you have curved legs/support.  Your unit is against the wall and you skirting runs in to the unit correct? Well the curved bottom you can still see the wall would just try and scribe abit of skirting to go in-between or would you keep the unit skirting thickness away from the wall?

Jmb

Good catch JMB.
Yes the skirting runs in to the unit. If I understand you correctly (terms may be different here) as I have designed it the skirting would go between the legs.
I am not totally happy with my solution to the side of the cabinet against the wall. If this was a piece of freestanding furniture, the baseboard would appear where it wasn't blocked. With the baseboard running into the leg of the cabinet like a built in it doesn't make a lot of sense to have the baseboard run along the back of the unit.
I wanted the bottoms of the bookcases to match as much as possible so I opted for both sides to be solid  rather than have legs with stretchers, but I have left the back open with a rail/stretcher placed just above the baseboard.
This is rather inconsistent design which I will remove the baseboard from the back wall under the table and bring the skirting down to fill the space.
Like so:
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Because this is a bit of a hybrid design - built in with furniture type legs it does present a bit of a problem.

Tim