Built your own kitchen cabinets?
- Thread starter tvgordon
- Start date
Thanks for the book tip Steve, I ordered Jim's book from Amazon (lowest price I could find) and should have it in a few days.
Clint, what material are you using for the cabinet boxes? Also, how difficult is it to brush the Benwood and not have drips or runs???
Tom.
Clint, what material are you using for the cabinet boxes? Also, how difficult is it to brush the Benwood and not have drips or runs???
Tom.
brandon.nickel
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- Jan 23, 2007
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Tom,
Sorry for the long delay. I've been away. I used Blum self-closing low profile hinges and the Festool LR32 for drilling the hinge cups. If you have a drill press and a plastic jig from Rockler or others you can do it for much less money, but I really, really like the ability to drill perfect shelf pin holes with my OF1400. I only have 7 upper cabinets in my kitchen but that's 224 holes (yes, I just counted). I also did some of the lowers just because I could without having to do any work. It's actually kinda fun.
I didn't have too much trouble with finishing the face-frames and the cabinet/drawer interiors. My biggest headache was the ~4'x3' exposed side of the island. I laminated the 3/4" poplar plywood with a 1/4" cherry from HD. Then I stained it using General American Cherry stain and finished with Minwax semi-gloss polyurethane. I used a foam brush for the first couple of tries, but it was leaving many, many small bubbles which hardened into little volcano rings. So, I sanded using the RO150 and 320 Brilliant and tried again. Then did it again, switching to a horse-hair brush. That left brush marks, so by coat 5 or 6 I ended up thinning the poly slightly and accepting the slightly imperfect finish. My wife can't see the flaws, but I can. Stupid gnats that like to swim in my freshly-applied poly...
I used 3/4" poplar/birch plywood for all of my cabinet sides and bottoms. I used 1/2" poplar/birch plywood for the backs. I used 1/2" baltic birch for all of the drawers, including the bottom of the drawers. I know you can use 1/4", but then I couldn't stand inside my drawers. ;D
-Brandon
Sorry for the long delay. I've been away. I used Blum self-closing low profile hinges and the Festool LR32 for drilling the hinge cups. If you have a drill press and a plastic jig from Rockler or others you can do it for much less money, but I really, really like the ability to drill perfect shelf pin holes with my OF1400. I only have 7 upper cabinets in my kitchen but that's 224 holes (yes, I just counted). I also did some of the lowers just because I could without having to do any work. It's actually kinda fun.
I didn't have too much trouble with finishing the face-frames and the cabinet/drawer interiors. My biggest headache was the ~4'x3' exposed side of the island. I laminated the 3/4" poplar plywood with a 1/4" cherry from HD. Then I stained it using General American Cherry stain and finished with Minwax semi-gloss polyurethane. I used a foam brush for the first couple of tries, but it was leaving many, many small bubbles which hardened into little volcano rings. So, I sanded using the RO150 and 320 Brilliant and tried again. Then did it again, switching to a horse-hair brush. That left brush marks, so by coat 5 or 6 I ended up thinning the poly slightly and accepting the slightly imperfect finish. My wife can't see the flaws, but I can. Stupid gnats that like to swim in my freshly-applied poly...
I used 3/4" poplar/birch plywood for all of my cabinet sides and bottoms. I used 1/2" poplar/birch plywood for the backs. I used 1/2" baltic birch for all of the drawers, including the bottom of the drawers. I know you can use 1/4", but then I couldn't stand inside my drawers. ;D
-Brandon
Jerry Work
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- Jan 16, 2007
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- 307
Hi all,
I am a bit late coming into this thread but would like to offer an alternative construction technique that is simple, fast, and lighter in weight than hefting all the MDF. Lay down and level the bottom toe kick box everywhere you want lower cabinets. Then build two simple frames the width and length of the run using something like 20 x 100mm stock. These are going to become the bottom and false top. Place a cross piece centered wherever you want dividers between drawers or doors. Do tongues and groves for what will become the bottom and assemble it with panels. No need for panels in what will become the false top. Butt joints with dominos will provide plenty of strength so no fancy joinery required. Now lay these out flat beside each other with the front edges aligned and clamp them so they can't move. Use the guided rail router to cut female DT groves on the center lines to accept the drawer and door dividers. If the run terminates against a wall center the DT grove 20mm away from the edge to keep it from breaking off during assembly.
Make a set of door and drawer divider frames everywhere you placed the cross pieces. Add one upright in the center of each of these dividers. Add panels if the divider separates door sections. No panels are necessary if the divider separates two drawer sections. Cut male DTs on what will become the top and bottom of these dividers. Make it a loose slide fit into the female DT groves. Apply a finish while each of these components are in the flat and fit the drawer guides to the sides of the drawer dividers while they are in the flat. Drill a hole in the metal drawer slide if you need to for a screw to go into that center upright to add strength. Fit the door hinges and drill the adjustable shelf bracket holes while the dividers are in the flat as well.
Make one more frame and panel to fit snugly into the back of each door compartment to keep the final assembly from racking.
Now you can carry all these pieces to the job site for assembly in place. Check the wall for plumb. If it is not and the wall slopes towards you, then hold the bottom frame out from the wall by the amount the wall is out of plumb. Lay the bottom frame on top of the toe kick box and screw it down. Slide the end most dividers into the sliding DTs. With a helper, slide the top frame into the sliding DTs on the bottom side of the top frame. Then slide the other dividers into place. Since you leveled the toe kick to start with and the dividers are square, the assembly will be square and plumb no matter how far off the floors and walls are from flat and plumb.
The final step is to insert the anti-rack backs into the spaces that will become door/shelf compartments and square up the whole assembly. As you add the drawers you will be amazed by how stiff this whole thing becomes. Drop in the doors and you are ready for the top. The false top frame becomes the very handy way to attach whatever top material you select.
Your back will appreciate the fact that you did not have to flop around the heavy melamine mdf, your shop will love not having all those boxes taking up room, your truck (or the walk to the house) will love the fact that everything transports in the flat, and the homeowner (LOML perhaps) will love seeing it all go together so much more like fine furniture than they might have expected. You will love the fact that it takes only a fraction of the time required to build "traditional" kitchen cabinets and you get to work with nice solid hard woods instead of that dusty mdf stuff. Fun.
Jerry
I am a bit late coming into this thread but would like to offer an alternative construction technique that is simple, fast, and lighter in weight than hefting all the MDF. Lay down and level the bottom toe kick box everywhere you want lower cabinets. Then build two simple frames the width and length of the run using something like 20 x 100mm stock. These are going to become the bottom and false top. Place a cross piece centered wherever you want dividers between drawers or doors. Do tongues and groves for what will become the bottom and assemble it with panels. No need for panels in what will become the false top. Butt joints with dominos will provide plenty of strength so no fancy joinery required. Now lay these out flat beside each other with the front edges aligned and clamp them so they can't move. Use the guided rail router to cut female DT groves on the center lines to accept the drawer and door dividers. If the run terminates against a wall center the DT grove 20mm away from the edge to keep it from breaking off during assembly.
Make a set of door and drawer divider frames everywhere you placed the cross pieces. Add one upright in the center of each of these dividers. Add panels if the divider separates door sections. No panels are necessary if the divider separates two drawer sections. Cut male DTs on what will become the top and bottom of these dividers. Make it a loose slide fit into the female DT groves. Apply a finish while each of these components are in the flat and fit the drawer guides to the sides of the drawer dividers while they are in the flat. Drill a hole in the metal drawer slide if you need to for a screw to go into that center upright to add strength. Fit the door hinges and drill the adjustable shelf bracket holes while the dividers are in the flat as well.
Make one more frame and panel to fit snugly into the back of each door compartment to keep the final assembly from racking.
Now you can carry all these pieces to the job site for assembly in place. Check the wall for plumb. If it is not and the wall slopes towards you, then hold the bottom frame out from the wall by the amount the wall is out of plumb. Lay the bottom frame on top of the toe kick box and screw it down. Slide the end most dividers into the sliding DTs. With a helper, slide the top frame into the sliding DTs on the bottom side of the top frame. Then slide the other dividers into place. Since you leveled the toe kick to start with and the dividers are square, the assembly will be square and plumb no matter how far off the floors and walls are from flat and plumb.
The final step is to insert the anti-rack backs into the spaces that will become door/shelf compartments and square up the whole assembly. As you add the drawers you will be amazed by how stiff this whole thing becomes. Drop in the doors and you are ready for the top. The false top frame becomes the very handy way to attach whatever top material you select.
Your back will appreciate the fact that you did not have to flop around the heavy melamine mdf, your shop will love not having all those boxes taking up room, your truck (or the walk to the house) will love the fact that everything transports in the flat, and the homeowner (LOML perhaps) will love seeing it all go together so much more like fine furniture than they might have expected. You will love the fact that it takes only a fraction of the time required to build "traditional" kitchen cabinets and you get to work with nice solid hard woods instead of that dusty mdf stuff. Fun.
Jerry
TahoeTwoBears
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- 194
Nice Jerry, now when can we expect the DVD version? (For those of us that are textually challenged).
Mike
Mike
Okay. I had to read it five times but I'm pretty sure I've got it. And I really like it. A couple questions.
The bottom frame only has T+G panels under doored sections, not drawer sections?
The anti rack panels are secured how? By screwing down through the top or are they DT'ed as well?
One or two pictures of the inside of an installation would be great.
The bottom frame only has T+G panels under doored sections, not drawer sections?
The anti rack panels are secured how? By screwing down through the top or are they DT'ed as well?
One or two pictures of the inside of an installation would be great.
Jerry Work
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- Jan 16, 2007
- Messages
- 307
I've never been very good at the "dumb it down" stuff but will try.
Most kitchen cabinets are made up of a series of boxes with open fronts that are hooked together on a common base. The open fronts get filled with either doors or drawers. Where two boxes fit together some form of face frame is needed to cover the doubled raw edges. Often the upper portion of the box is also open with just corner blocks to add rigidity.
In the method I described there is a common base frame sitting on a leveled toe kick so the base frame is level independent of the floor. Wherever a wall between sections is desired place a cross member between the front and back of the base frame. Wherever the section is to be a door/shelf section add a panel. No need for panels under sections that are filled by drawers as you will never see below the bottom of the lowest drawer. If you want to put in a panel anyway, it won't hurt anything. Same with the back areas.
The top frame is identical to the bottom or base frame except it has no panels as it will be covered with some form of countertop. To hold the dividers between sections you cut matching dovetail groves in the centers of each cross member. To make sure those DT groves line up on the top of the bottom/base frame and the underside of the upper/top frame cut them at the same time with the faces of each aligned.
The dividers are just butt jointed (domino reinforced) R&S frames with one centered up and down member. That is used as an additional fastening point for the ball bearing drawer slides that would otherwise only be attached at the front and back of the divider. Run the rails up and down and the rails front to back so the centered up and down unit is a center stile. Include a panel for the dividers that form the sides of a door/shelf compartment. No need for panels between two drawer sections as you will never see that once the drawers are in place. Build these dividers to be greater than the desired distance between the top and bottom frames by the depth of the two female sliding DT slots so once everything is together you have the up and down dimension you want. Cut male DTs on the top and bottom of each divider component.
Make R, S & P components to fill the back of each section that will be door/shelf areas.
Finish everything in the flat as it is easier and faster than trying to finish the assembly in place. Mount all the hardware you need (drawer slides and door hinges) while everything is in the flat for the same reason.
Now you can just slide everything together on site. The base frame is level independent of the floor so all the upright sections will be plumb once you install the back frames. The leveled base frame is held away from the wall by enough that the upright dividers will fit and be flush at the front edges of the base, top and divider frames to make up for walls that are out of plumb. For a door/shelf section between two drawer sections hold those back panels in place via screws from the drawer side into the edges of the upright portions of the back sections. Where two door/drawer sections sit side by side I use the mortised sliding domino lock shown in the Getting the Most from the Domino manual for mounting sliding doors so the only thing visable from inside the door/shelf area is the small 5mm vertical slot and one screw head.
You can use either insert or overlap doors and drawers. There is no face frame so you get a very clean look either way. It is just a matter of whether the front edges of the base, top and upright frames show or not.
Overhead cabinets can be done in the same way, just think upside down.
Jerry
Most kitchen cabinets are made up of a series of boxes with open fronts that are hooked together on a common base. The open fronts get filled with either doors or drawers. Where two boxes fit together some form of face frame is needed to cover the doubled raw edges. Often the upper portion of the box is also open with just corner blocks to add rigidity.
In the method I described there is a common base frame sitting on a leveled toe kick so the base frame is level independent of the floor. Wherever a wall between sections is desired place a cross member between the front and back of the base frame. Wherever the section is to be a door/shelf section add a panel. No need for panels under sections that are filled by drawers as you will never see below the bottom of the lowest drawer. If you want to put in a panel anyway, it won't hurt anything. Same with the back areas.
The top frame is identical to the bottom or base frame except it has no panels as it will be covered with some form of countertop. To hold the dividers between sections you cut matching dovetail groves in the centers of each cross member. To make sure those DT groves line up on the top of the bottom/base frame and the underside of the upper/top frame cut them at the same time with the faces of each aligned.
The dividers are just butt jointed (domino reinforced) R&S frames with one centered up and down member. That is used as an additional fastening point for the ball bearing drawer slides that would otherwise only be attached at the front and back of the divider. Run the rails up and down and the rails front to back so the centered up and down unit is a center stile. Include a panel for the dividers that form the sides of a door/shelf compartment. No need for panels between two drawer sections as you will never see that once the drawers are in place. Build these dividers to be greater than the desired distance between the top and bottom frames by the depth of the two female sliding DT slots so once everything is together you have the up and down dimension you want. Cut male DTs on the top and bottom of each divider component.
Make R, S & P components to fill the back of each section that will be door/shelf areas.
Finish everything in the flat as it is easier and faster than trying to finish the assembly in place. Mount all the hardware you need (drawer slides and door hinges) while everything is in the flat for the same reason.
Now you can just slide everything together on site. The base frame is level independent of the floor so all the upright sections will be plumb once you install the back frames. The leveled base frame is held away from the wall by enough that the upright dividers will fit and be flush at the front edges of the base, top and divider frames to make up for walls that are out of plumb. For a door/shelf section between two drawer sections hold those back panels in place via screws from the drawer side into the edges of the upright portions of the back sections. Where two door/drawer sections sit side by side I use the mortised sliding domino lock shown in the Getting the Most from the Domino manual for mounting sliding doors so the only thing visable from inside the door/shelf area is the small 5mm vertical slot and one screw head.
You can use either insert or overlap doors and drawers. There is no face frame so you get a very clean look either way. It is just a matter of whether the front edges of the base, top and upright frames show or not.
Overhead cabinets can be done in the same way, just think upside down.
Jerry
tvgordon said:
Dave Ronyak
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- 2,234
brandon.nickel said:
Brandon,
I've done a lot of finishing in the past few years with brushed Minwax Polyurethane and have never had the experience you described. I first apply a wash coat of Zinser's Shellac. I dilute it about 50/50 with denatured alcohol and use a very inexpensive natural bristle brush. After the shellac has dried, I apply oil-based (Minwax brand, mostly) stain, let it dry, then apply another coat of shellac, which can be full strength from the can, or diluted. Then I apply the polyurethane varnish (preferably with a natural bristle brush, but I have had success with synthetics, too) diluting the first coat considerably. When the first coat has dried to the touch - a few hours at most, I apply a second coat, which I also thin, but not as much. I then let the varnish thoroughly dry, then lightly sand, first using a ~280 grit sponge sanding block (like those sold by Klingspor) to kock off any nibs, then with a 280 grit or 320 grit microcellular sponge (these are much softer than the blocks) or equivalent fine grit synthetic fibrous sanding sponge (the stuff that replicates steel wool). I remove any sanding dust first by vacuuming with a soft natural bristle brush (not the Festool unit but one saved from an old vacuum cleaner), then with microfiber towels. For the final coat of polyurethane, if I am using material from a freshly opened can, I generally use it undiluted. At most I add ~capful (tablespoon?) of mineral spirits to ~6 to 8 ounces of varnish, stir it in thoroughly, then brush it on carefully making sure that I maintain a wet edge, and arranging a light source so I can be certain I am fully wetting the surface, and evenly. Be certain to apply you loaded brush a few inches away from where your last strokes ended and brush back into your previous work. You'll need to work quickly, and avoid overbrushing. Using this technique I finished a pair of bifold doors (4 panels, each about 2ft wide in a single day once I got to applying the polyurethane. I applied a coat late in the evening, another the next morning before going to my regular job, then another late afternoon upon my return home. The doors were leaned against the wall of my garage during the finishing steps. The finish is so smooth that most people think they were sprayed.
I did experience some bubbling of the finish when I first started, possibly due to trapped air in the pores of the birch veneer trying to make its way to the surface. Use of a little thinner facilitated that air getting through the varnish. I also found I could lightly wipe my wetted brush using long, smooth one-way strokes (all the way top to bottom or bottom to top) to break those bubbles. I did not experience bubbles in the later coats. Three thin coats with slight sanding (synthetic steel wool) worked much better for me than one or two heavier coats. I generally use gloss polyurethane for the base coat(s) then switch to semi-gloss if that is the level of sheen I want.
Best wishes for your success. I hope the above helps if you have any more to do.
Dave R.
I am finally done with my finish investigation!!!
I have tried the following finishes:
If you remember my previous post I was trying to figure out which finish to use for my kitchen cabinets. I was trying to find a finish that would survive the repeated attacks of my wife armed with an array of chemicals.
I originally pick the GF one because it got a good review from FWW. Got the minwax and cabot from my local store and ordered the oxford one because everybody is talking about it in FOG.
I tried my best to apply the finish the same way for all the tested products. My shop has a relatively constant humidity and temperature.
I prepared the wood by sanding it down to 220 with my ETS125, raising the grain and sanding it down again to 220. I did spray the finishes with my FUJI Q4 HPLV unit applying three coats and by taking the finish (strained) straight out of the can without thinning.
My conclusion is simple.
None of the GF products preformed good. The High performance one is getting a noticable haze after wiping some cleaning product (Clorox disinfecting kitchen cleaner beeing the most aggressive for this finish). The polycrilic is even worse and gets disolved by some cleaners. This litteraly ruins the finish. I should note that I purchased both can from the same store at the same time. The product might have been misshandled by the store at some point (cold/hot?). Both have been curing for some time now and don't seem to get any better.
The remaining have only been curing for a small week but already performed much better. The Minwax is getting a very subtle dull appearence after wiping off of the cleaning product and is getting better by the day so it might turned out to be just fine after it fully cures. The cabot and the SC9000 do not seem to be affected at all.
I will go with the SC9000 over the cabot because the later is not compatible with shellac which I plan to use as a barrier between an oil coat and the finish.
Emmanuel
I have tried the following finishes:
- GF High Performance Polyurethane Top Coat
- GF PolyAcrylic Blend Top Coat
- Minwax polycrilic
- Cabot water based polyurethane
- Oxford super clear polyurethane 9000
If you remember my previous post I was trying to figure out which finish to use for my kitchen cabinets. I was trying to find a finish that would survive the repeated attacks of my wife armed with an array of chemicals.
I originally pick the GF one because it got a good review from FWW. Got the minwax and cabot from my local store and ordered the oxford one because everybody is talking about it in FOG.
I tried my best to apply the finish the same way for all the tested products. My shop has a relatively constant humidity and temperature.
I prepared the wood by sanding it down to 220 with my ETS125, raising the grain and sanding it down again to 220. I did spray the finishes with my FUJI Q4 HPLV unit applying three coats and by taking the finish (strained) straight out of the can without thinning.
My conclusion is simple.
None of the GF products preformed good. The High performance one is getting a noticable haze after wiping some cleaning product (Clorox disinfecting kitchen cleaner beeing the most aggressive for this finish). The polycrilic is even worse and gets disolved by some cleaners. This litteraly ruins the finish. I should note that I purchased both can from the same store at the same time. The product might have been misshandled by the store at some point (cold/hot?). Both have been curing for some time now and don't seem to get any better.
The remaining have only been curing for a small week but already performed much better. The Minwax is getting a very subtle dull appearence after wiping off of the cleaning product and is getting better by the day so it might turned out to be just fine after it fully cures. The cabot and the SC9000 do not seem to be affected at all.
I will go with the SC9000 over the cabot because the later is not compatible with shellac which I plan to use as a barrier between an oil coat and the finish.
Emmanuel
Dave Ronyak
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Thanks for sharing with us. Please keep your samples and test them again after they have sat a month or so.
Dave R.
Dave R.
Nice test Emmanuel. I surprised me that the General Finishes HP didn't do very well. I emailed Jeff Jewitt at homestead finishes a few day ago and he recommended the GF HP finish for spraying and Waterlox for wiping/ brushing for use on kitchen cabinets. I thought he would recommend Oxford by Target Coatings (what Jerry Work uses). Did you know that Oxford also makes a water based shellac? Maybe Dave's right about the finishes have to cure for a month before they reach full strength.
Tom.
Tom.
I believe that the GF has already cured for over a month. I was also surprise too at the result.
Thats why I was mentionning that maybe the store could have miss handle the finish.
Also after re-reading the FWW article, I noticed that they rated the finish poor for heat resistance which might not be the best choice for kitchen cabinets .
In any case, my kitchen is already in the demolition phase so I don't have time to change my mind again
Thats why I was mentionning that maybe the store could have miss handle the finish.
Also after re-reading the FWW article, I noticed that they rated the finish poor for heat resistance which might not be the best choice for kitchen cabinets .
In any case, my kitchen is already in the demolition phase so I don't have time to change my mind again
Emmanuel said:In any case, my kitchen is already in the demolition phase so I don't have time to change my mind again
Nonsense! There's always plenty of time to change your mind. Until she's been doing dishes in a plastic bucket on the back porch for over four months, a kitchen project can't even be considered half over ;D
Eli said:Emmanuel said:In any case, my kitchen is already in the demolition phase so I don't have time to change my mind again
Nonsense! There's always plenty of time to change your mind. Until she's been doing dishes in a plastic bucket on the back porch for over four months, a kitchen project can't even be considered half over ;D
Somehow I feel I will be the one on the porch
Dave Ronyak
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- Jan 23, 2007
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Does anyone have any good designs for a dog house? (Human sized?)
Dave R.
Dave R.
For top coat I use a product from BM. It's labeled U.S. Cellulose, a product of AMT. It's a AMT/Chemcraft coatings product named LC825 (Satin) and LC810 (gloss). It's KCMA certified and it's the strongest conversion varnish I've seen. If you try to scratch the finished coating with a key you'll generally only dent the wood under the finish. Doesn't smell good but lasts...
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