C12 Li drill performance

[teardrop63]

I recently purchased a CSX and an old stock C12 Li with the 1.3amp batteries.
The CSX is a honey. An absolute joy to use.
The C12 on the other hand is so gutless its a real disappointment.
I've been back to the local agent twice now but they say its just because of the lower amp batteries.
Sometimes on full charge it will drill several large holes. Other times on full charge it starts beeping after just a few holes with only mid size bits (8 to 10mm).
Of course when the agent tries it out it works ok so I don't think he really believes me.
He has suggested if I'm not happy to go back to the retailer and ask for a refund. But I don't want a refund. I just want the drill to work properly.
Has anyone else experienced this problem with this model.
In the meantime my old DeWalt 10.8v is eating it

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

Have a look at this thread and my post.

http://festoolownersgroup.com/festool-tools-accessories/c15-can't-sink-drywall-screw/msg251044/#msg251044

Make sure the drill is in the drill mode and not the screw mode. In the screw mode, the clutch will engage, in the drill mode it will not. That's what it sounds like might be going on.

I've driven some pretty big 10"+ long screws with my T12.

Hope that helps.

Shane

 

[fdengel]

The drill bit with the Kreg Jig is supposedly 3/8", or about 9.5mm.  I have no difficulty making plenty of pocket holes using my older NiCd/NiMH C12, and battery life is great.  There is no excuse for the C12 Li to be giving up after "just a few holes" with those bit sizes.  I've used my C12 for more demanding tasks than that and it performs well.  My 18V Ryobi drills have basically been collecting dust since I got it, and I was never particularly disappointed with those until then.

If Shane's suggestion doesn't work, it definitely sounds like something is wrong.  Are the bits sharp?  Perhaps the batteries themselves have issues?

The lower "amp" on the batteries would be "amp-hours" and is a reference to how long the batteries last on a charge; it should have little or no impact on the performance of the tool when being used with a freshly charged battery.

 

[greg mann]

Sound like batteries to me, unless Shane is right about not being in the drill setting. That, however, would not explain why you can drill a couple holes and then have problems, unless it was switched between drill and screw settings at the time of disappointment. I have the C12 and use 1.3 NiCads as well as the next capacity up, and also a newer NiMH battery I bought when the NiCads were getting long in the tooth. The drill has worked equally well with lower amp hour, higher amp hour NiCads and with the NiMH battery. Additionally, since I had two NiCads rebuilt they have been as good as when new, maybe better than new as there have been improvements in the individual cell technology over the interim. The drill has always done everything I had expected from it.

 

[semenza]

There shouldn't be any problem with the amount of power that the drill itself has even with the lower amp batteries. Unless something is actually wrong with the drill , but I am thinking that it sounds like a problem with the batteries taking a charge? Although both batteries being bad seems unlikely.  ???

Seth

 

[teardrop63]

Thanks for the replies guys.
I'm wondering whether the batteries are the issue given that the drill is old stock. I don't know how long the batteries have sat around.
The agent put them on a load tester of some description and reckoned they were reading ok.
I have read somewhere that batteries that sit for too long can have problems. Just wondering whether there is anything that can be done to refresh them.
I am definitely using it in drill mode, not screw.
As a comparison, the CSX will eat through holes that the C12 stops on.

 

[jimbo51]

I had a C12 drill stop working and it turned out to be a bad controller board. It worked fine after Festool replaced the board. Mine was over 4 years old at the time so it cost about $100. For a new drill, any repair will be free. 

 

[teardrop63]

Fully charged battery. One small hole drilled. 10 x  3 inch tek screws. 50  x 2 inch screws. Battery has finished.
Hmmm. Think I need to go back and have another conversation with Festool agent.

 

[Kev]

In my opinion the C12 isn't a worthwhile companion to a CSX - I'd be going to T15 or C15 as an ideal companion.

 

[Michael_MA]

can you get a replacement battery from your dealer to see if the battery is the problem -
LiIon batteries have a strange behavior, casue they tend to die after a certain time, even though they may have not been used - just sittinbg around - if the

battery is older than 3 years, you can expect no mpore than 30 to 40% percent of the initial capacity - Festool is one of the manufacturers, which give a

three you a three year guarantee for batteries, but not longer cause of the chemical dead.
A good thing for LiIon batteries is to recharge them frequently  and do not discharge them until they are completely exhausted.

Here is a good article about this problem:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

kind regards, Mike

 

[tbellemare]

can you get a replacement battery from your dealer to see if the battery is the problem -
LiIon batteries have a strange behavior, casue they tend to die after a certain time, even though they may have not been used - just sittinbg around - if the

battery is older than 3 years, you can expect no mpore than 30 to 40% percent of the initial capacity - Festool is one of the manufacturers, which give a

three you a three year guarantee for batteries, but not longer cause of the chemical dead.
A good thing for LiIon batteries is to recharge them frequently  and do not discharge them until they are completely exhausted.

Here is a good article about this problem:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

kind regards, Mike

I have read various places about Li-Ion battery degradation over time and charging cycles but I'm curious how Toyota could guarantee their Prius batteries for eight years if it were really true.

I've read that 300-500 charging cycles can be the total life of some. If one drove a Prius just 2 trips per day (to and from work/church/etc.) for 8 years, that would be 5840 trips.

Tom

 

[Michael_MA]

can you get a replacement battery from your dealer to see if the battery is the problem -
LiIon batteries have a strange behavior, casue they tend to die after a certain time, even though they may have not been used - just sittinbg around - if the

battery is older than 3 years, you can expect no mpore than 30 to 40% percent of the initial capacity - Festool is one of the manufacturers, which give a

three you a three year guarantee for batteries, but not longer cause of the chemical dead.
A good thing for LiIon batteries is to recharge them frequently  and do not discharge them until they are completely exhausted.

Here is a good article about this problem:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/how_to_prolong_lithium_based_batteries

kind regards, Mike

I have read various places about Li-Ion battery degradation over time and charging cycles but I'm curious how Toyota could guarantee their Prius batteries for eight years if it were really true.

I've read that 300-500 charging cycles can be the total life of some. If one drove a Prius just 2 trips per day (to and from work/church/etc.) for 8 years, that would be 5840 trips.

Tom

since car Batteries are fixed install batteries for the lifetime of a car, they are not that easy to be replaced.
Car Manufacturers therefore take precaution to not use all cells in a pack all the time to spread the charge/discharge stress over the entire package.
Additional there are special balancer circuits used to recharge the cells in a pack evenly and early enaugh to gain an high amount of charge/discharge cycles -
5000 is not a problem if the battery is only discharged down to 70-80%  and then recharged to about 95-98% this keeps the Li-Iron-phosphate cells in a healthy condition -
as long this is done during normal temperature condition, the LiFePo battery cell can surely live for more thand five years based on normal car usage.

kind regards, Mike

 

[Dave Ronyak]

Tom Bellemare stated in part:
"Festool is one of the manufacturers, which give a

three you a three year guarantee for batteries, but not longer cause of the chemical dead.
A good thing for LiIon batteries is to recharge them frequently  and do not discharge them until they are completely exhausted."

I'm puzzled about that last phrase "do not discharge them until they are completely exhausted."  Tom, what did you intend to say?  Don't recharge them until completely drained of power?

Also, it should be noted that the Toyota Prius protects its NiCad batteries by prohibiting them from being fully charged and from being fully drained during the normal usage cycle of that vehicle.  The owner/operator is only using about 60% of the total battery capacity during normal operation.  Not very efficient compared to the charge/discharge cycle normally allotted to LiIon batteries.

I don't own a C12 but do own a T-12+3 drill for ~3 years and have had zero problems with it or its batteries regardless of usage cycle or lack of use and any recharging for months at a time.  [I'm a hobbyist furniture maker and home DIYer].  The same pair of originally supplied LiIon batteries are also used to power my SysLight.  My drill seems to have more than adequate power and run time on a single battery, more than enough to drill/counterbore/and sink at least a double handfull of No. 8 x 3" decking screws.

 

[tbellemare]

I don't recall stating that, Dave. Can you point me to it?

What I understand is true is that Li-Ion batteries last longer if they are not fully discharged. With NiCD's, you want to fully discharge them.

Tom

 

[peter halle]

That quote was from Michael MA - not Tom.

Peter

 

[Michael_MA]

Just to make it clear - a Toyota Prius is NOT a Hand Drill  ;D

Its fine, when a three year aged LiIon battery still has enaugh power to drive two handfull of screws occasionally -
but i'm talking about lifetime of a power source which receives day to day abuse of running hundred of screws.
Festool makes tools mainly for Professionals which earn a living out of it and therefore the expectation is different than for the in- frequent usage.

But anyhow, Todays charging technology takes care about the lifetime and degradation of the battery, which means unless you do a full rundown, you won't notice any degradation of the battery - at least for the guaranteed time frame.

Wherever the capacity of the battery is shown, you will see the charger has to "calibrate" the battery from time to time - which simply means, the batteries current capacity is measured by discharging the battery completely an then the rest capacity will be scaled to read 100% again, even though the real capacity is much lower....

Kind regards, Mike

P.s. Some good infos about the Prius and its Battery technolgy can be found here:
Wikipedia - Toyota Prius