Cabinet Design issues when using Domino and LR32 System

[lowenslo]

Guidance is needed regarding laying out base and upper cabinets when there are 2 or 3 banks of drawers or shelves in a single cabinet assembly. The issue is how to handle the mid-panels. I plan to use dominos for the joints and the LR32 for shelves, drawers and hinges. I don't plan to use face frames. So my design question involves how-best to plan the joinery for connecting sides and mid-panels to the bottom.

At issue is whether it makes sense to cut mid-panel(s) the same height as the L&R sides. I plan to have the L&R sides cover the bottom panel so it doesn't show from the sides. If the mid-panels are the same height as the sides, then it means the bottom becomes 2 or 3 pieces vs. a single panel. This wouldn't be noticeable on the base cabinet but it would be on the uppers (especially for short people).

Keeping the mid-panel and side panel heights the same has an advantage when using the LR32 of being able to reference off of both ends of the panel the way the LR32 is designed to be used. If the mid-panels are cut 3/4" shorter (taking into account the thickness of the bottom panel) then there is only one reference edge for the LR32, that being the top.

I hope this description makes sense. I've looked but haven't found a good reference source, YouTube video or thread covering this question and I'd like to proceed using good technique. Suggestions or links to information on the subject will be great.

As a separate question re: the sizing of dominos for 3/4" sheet goods, I'm wondering if I should use 8x40 dominos (which I have a ton of on-hand) or whether I should buck-up and buy some 6x40's or possibly 5x30's. I believe 6x40's are the "correct" size because 6mm is roughly 1/3 of 3/4" sheet goods. 5x30's are tempting because they don't require changing the depth setting back and forth but they seem awfully small...

Thanks, Rich

 

[johan139]

"Keeping the mid-panel and side panel heights the same has an advantage when using the LR32 of being able to reference off of both ends of the panel the way the LR32 is designed to be used."

That's also possible, even if you want the mid- panel to be shorter in order to be able to use single panel bottom (and  top panel). After you've created the LR 32 holes etc just cut 3/4 from the top and bottom of the mid panel (s).

 

[tiralie]

After you've created the LR 32 holes etc just cut 3/4 from the top and bottom of the mid panel (s).

Definitely the easiest solution in this situation, or use a 19mm cutoff between your L32 stop and the panel bottom or top
Tim

 

[lowenslo]

Thanks, I hadn't considered making a second cut. I can see where this would work very well.

 

[fshanno]

First, 5x30 by all means.  That's what they use in the Festool training sessions.  I've done a lot of cases and the 5x30's are more than adequate for 23/32 ply.  And they have the virtue you note, the mortises are all the same depth. 

As far as mid panels go, don't do it.  Just don't have them.  Make separate cases.

Yes, it will take a little more material but everything else will be SO MUCH SIMPLER.  Simpler design, simpler assembly and even simpler installation.  Using dominos means clamping and clamping that mid panel on base cabinets is a pain.

And for what it's worth here's my opinion.  Unless there's some pressing need only have drawers with drawer fronts on all your base cabinets.  No doors.  What's the point in having the user have to bend over to dig stuff out of a base cabinet?  And what's the point of having to open two doors in order to pull out a sliding shelf?  Just go with drawers on lowers and you be much happier.  The drawers don't have to be fancy.  Just plywood with the top edge banded.  You can domino them or just use pocket screws.  Assuming you're going with Blum Tandem soft close drawer glides any kind of construction will be fine because the drawer bottom carries all the weight.  And then you don't have to worry about 32mm holes at all on your base cabinets because you won't have any doors or shelves to worry about.  You can screw the drawer glides to the sides of the base cabinets BEFORE assembly.  No point in setting up the LR32 just for holes for drawer glides.  You can use story sticks for spacing and just screw them on.  The only exception would be the sink cabinet which will have hinges and doors.  But it won't have a shelf so you don't have to worry about self pins, right?  Any kind of little 32mm drilling jig will work to drill the holes for the hinges on the sink cabinet, like maybe the little Kreg version.

And here's another suggestion.  Don't do frameless wall cabinets unless you have really awesome flat plywood.  You can go with full overlay doors and cover the faceframe completely to match your full overlay frameless base cabinets.  Wall cabinets with faceframes are somewhat stronger.  On frameless uppers that bottom, and even the top, can sag over time.  I've seen it. That will never happen with a faceframe upper. 

And another suggestion.  Go with UV prefinished birch ply for your cases.  Where ends are visible use applied end panels for wall and base cabinets.  One super advantage with this is you can very easily scribe applied end panels.  You can make your end panels out of beautiful ply or you can make 5 piece panels that match the doors or whatever.

 

[sancho57]

 

[lowenslo]

First, 5x30 by all means.  That's what they use in the Festool training sessions.  I've done a lot of cases and the 5x30's are more than adequate for 23/32 ply.  And they have the virtue you note, the mortises are all the same depth. 

As far as mid panels go, don't do it.  Just don't have them.  Make separate cases.

Yes, it will take a little more material but everything else will be SO MUCH SIMPLER.  Simpler design, simpler assembly and even simpler installation.  Using dominos means clamping and clamping that mid panel on base cabinets is a pain.

And for what it's worth here's my opinion.  Unless there's some pressing need only have drawers with drawer fronts on all your base cabinets.  No doors.  What's the point in having the user have to bend over to dig stuff out of a base cabinet?  And what's the point of having to open two doors in order to pull out a sliding shelf?  Just go with drawers on lowers and you be much happier.  The drawers don't have to be fancy.  Just plywood with the top edge banded.  You can domino them or just use pocket screws.  Assuming you're going with Blum Tandem soft close drawer glides any kind of construction will be fine because the drawer bottom carries all the weight.  And then you don't have to worry about 32mm holes at all on your base cabinets because you won't have any doors or shelves to worry about.  You can screw the drawer glides to the sides of the base cabinets BEFORE assembly.  No point in setting up the LR32 just for holes for drawer glides.  You can use story sticks for spacing and just screw them on.  The only exception would be the sink cabinet which will have hinges and doors.  But it won't have a shelf so you don't have to worry about self pins, right?  Any kind of little 32mm drilling jig will work to drill the holes for the hinges on the sink cabinet, like maybe the little Kreg version.

And here's another suggestion.  Don't do frameless wall cabinets unless you have really awesome flat plywood.  You can go with full overlay doors and cover the faceframe completely to match your full overlay frameless base cabinets.  Wall cabinets with faceframes are somewhat stronger.  On frameless uppers that bottom, and even the top, can sag over time.  I've seen it. That will never happen with a faceframe upper. 

And another suggestion.  Go with UV prefinished birch ply for your cases.  Where ends are visible use applied end panels for wall and base cabinets.  One super advantage with this is you can very easily scribe applied end panels.  You can make your end panels out of beautiful ply or you can make 5 piece panels that match the doors or whatever.

Thanks for the detailed response. What made me initially consider using the 5x30 Dominos was watching the Festool training video you refer to. I've not blown through the side of a panel by forgetting to reset the depth limit but I've come close.  I'm re-thinking my designs based on your comments. The idea of skipping the base cabinet doors and going with deep pull-out shelves sized for Systainers two-deep is under consideration. I also find wide drawers useful, especially shallow drawers for longer T-squares and that sort of thing. I will probably do a wider cabinet, too. I'm going to break up the base cabinets with openings to park my CT26 dust extractor, for example. 

 

[SGreenberg]

Regarding the idea of only having drawers on the lower cabinets, and no doors, I've given this some thought. Here's the reason you might want some cabinets with doors: if you have a heavy item, like a mixer or food processor, it's a lot easier to bend your legs and reach down to lift it if you have doors open and easy access to the front of the cabinet. It can be done from the side if course, but I think it's easier from the front. If you only have lightweight items in the cabinet then I agree, drawers make more sense.

First, 5x30 by all means.  That's what they use in the Festool training sessions.  I've done a lot of cases and the 5x30's are more than adequate for 23/32 ply.  And they have the virtue you note, the mortises are all the same depth. 

As far as mid panels go, don't do it.  Just don't have them.  Make separate cases.

Yes, it will take a little more material but everything else will be SO MUCH SIMPLER.  Simpler design, simpler assembly and even simpler installation.  Using dominos means clamping and clamping that mid panel on base cabinets is a pain.

And for what it's worth here's my opinion.  Unless there's some pressing need only have drawers with drawer fronts on all your base cabinets.  No doors.  What's the point in having the user have to bend over to dig stuff out of a base cabinet?  And what's the point of having to open two doors in order to pull out a sliding shelf?  Just go with drawers on lowers and you be much happier.  The drawers don't have to be fancy.  Just plywood with the top edge banded.  You can domino them or just use pocket screws.  Assuming you're going with Blum Tandem soft close drawer glides any kind of construction will be fine because the drawer bottom carries all the weight.  And then you don't have to worry about 32mm holes at all on your base cabinets because you won't have any doors or shelves to worry about.  You can screw the drawer glides to the sides of the base cabinets BEFORE assembly.  No point in setting up the LR32 just for holes for drawer glides.  You can use story sticks for spacing and just screw them on.  The only exception would be the sink cabinet which will have hinges and doors.  But it won't have a shelf so you don't have to worry about self pins, right?  Any kind of little 32mm drilling jig will work to drill the holes for the hinges on the sink cabinet, like maybe the little Kreg version.

And here's another suggestion.  Don't do frameless wall cabinets unless you have really awesome flat plywood.  You can go with full overlay doors and cover the faceframe completely to match your full overlay frameless base cabinets.  Wall cabinets with faceframes are somewhat stronger.  On frameless uppers that bottom, and even the top, can sag over time.  I've seen it. That will never happen with a faceframe upper. 

And another suggestion.  Go with UV prefinished birch ply for your cases.  Where ends are visible use applied end panels for wall and base cabinets.  One super advantage with this is you can very easily scribe applied end panels.  You can make your end panels out of beautiful ply or you can make 5 piece panels that match the doors or whatever.

 

[thender]

First, 5x30 by all means.  That's what they use in the Festool training sessions.  I've done a lot of cases and the 5x30's are more than adequate for 23/32 ply.  And they have the virtue you note, the mortises are all the same depth. 

As far as mid panels go, don't do it.  Just don't have them.  Make separate cases.

Yes, it will take a little more material but everything else will be SO MUCH SIMPLER.  Simpler design, simpler assembly and even simpler installation.  Using dominos means clamping and clamping that mid panel on base cabinets is a pain.

And for what it's worth here's my opinion.  Unless there's some pressing need only have drawers with drawer fronts on all your base cabinets.  No doors.  What's the point in having the user have to bend over to dig stuff out of a base cabinet?  And what's the point of having to open two doors in order to pull out a sliding shelf?  Just go with drawers on lowers and you be much happier.  The drawers don't have to be fancy.  Just plywood with the top edge banded.  You can domino them or just use pocket screws.  Assuming you're going with Blum Tandem soft close drawer glides any kind of construction will be fine because the drawer bottom carries all the weight.  And then you don't have to worry about 32mm holes at all on your base cabinets because you won't have any doors or shelves to worry about.  You can screw the drawer glides to the sides of the base cabinets BEFORE assembly.  No point in setting up the LR32 just for holes for drawer glides.  You can use story sticks for spacing and just screw them on.  The only exception would be the sink cabinet which will have hinges and doors.  But it won't have a shelf so you don't have to worry about self pins, right?  Any kind of little 32mm drilling jig will work to drill the holes for the hinges on the sink cabinet, like maybe the little Kreg version.

And here's another suggestion.  Don't do frameless wall cabinets unless you have really awesome flat plywood.  You can go with full overlay doors and cover the faceframe completely to match your full overlay frameless base cabinets.  Wall cabinets with faceframes are somewhat stronger.  On frameless uppers that bottom, and even the top, can sag over time.  I've seen it. That will never happen with a faceframe upper. 

And another suggestion.  Go with UV prefinished birch ply for your cases.  Where ends are visible use applied end panels for wall and base cabinets.  One super advantage with this is you can very easily scribe applied end panels.  You can make your end panels out of beautiful ply or you can make 5 piece panels that match the doors or whatever.

Awesome post!

There is a ton of good info and lessons learned in that post...

Very helpful.

Thanks for taking the time to post.

 

[DynaGlide]

[member=2018]fshanno[/member]

First off - glad to see you posting. Are you planning on resuming your YouTube videos?

I'm about to start on some office cabinetry for my home office to allow my wife and I to work at home together.

1) No matter how many different ways I explain it she is insistent on having doors on the base cabinets because that's what everyone else does on Pinterest. It's unfortunate but I don't think I will win that battle. I will likely put pull out shelves in some. Which leads me to. .

2) I had planned on doing 32mm holes on the base cabinets to allow for flexibility with doors/drawers and build all the base cabinets the same. Right now it looks like I'll have 1 base with just drawers (mine) and 4 base with doors (and some of those with drawers/shelves on glides). With little in experience doing actual cabinets, you're saying to do away with the system holes on the base that will just have drawers and drawer fronts? Blum tandem plus glides. I already made a mockup box and did the system holes. For a box that only has drawers is it as simple as setting the two glides on the base of the box and screwing them in without any pre-drilled system holes (I'd use a Vix bit first)? Do you set them flush to the front or push them back? On my mockup box I think they're set back a little. Then spacer block to get to the next drawer glides referencing off the bottom glides. The spacing seems to me to be arbitrary/up to what looks right for the application (shallow/deep for files or pens/pencils/etc). I was following along the Blum Process32 for this build but maybe overkill for the box that only has drawers.

Thanks,
Matt

 

[CeeJay]

Matt if I’m just putting in drawers I don’t bother with LR32. Just spacers for the drawer slides. You can see here (shop cabinets not furniture, but same principal) drawer shelves which will have a door front so they don’t get full of dust. The spacers are on top of the cabinet.

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[lowenslo]

Rather than putting doors in front of pull-out shelves for my shop base cabinets, I'm thinking of either low-sided drawers (with tall drawer fronts) or possibly leaving the fronts off altogether, leaving the contents visible. Having doors cover slide-out drawers or using taller drawer fronts help with dust issues at the expense of somewhat easier access for the open slide-out drawers. Always a tradeoff.

 

[Stan Tillinghast]

Great posts, thanks! Will be watching the instructional video.

For the member above whose wife wants doors like “everyone else”—has she looked at display cabinets at a dealer where they have 3 wide, deep drawers? My wife instantly fell in love when she saw how you can put really heavy dishes, etc. in the drawers and with the Blum hardware they still open and close amazingly easily.
When we redo our kitchen cabinets, whether I make them or we buy them, we will absolutely have drawers. In the meantime pull-out inserts are the next best thing, but distinctly inferior.

Thanks for mentioning dust issues, which are a huge issue for workshop cabinets, and your mentioning that has made me change my plans for my workshop cabinets.

 

[lowenslo]

Shelves and doors make sense for upper cabinets but drawers—and large, wider drawers seem to be the way to go for both a shop and kitchen. Blum has a series of videos available on YouTube to demonstrate the difference between wider drawers vs narrower drawer banks for a given length of counter space. The bigger drawers were much more efficient in terms of the quantity of stuff one could pack into, say, 12 lineal feet of base cabinets. Access is much easier than digging around in deep lower shelves, too.

 

[CeeJay]

Absolutely agree on larger drawers for kitchens. I have these on Blum hardware in our kitchen.  They are fantastic, particularly for drawers below bench height. For higher cabinets drawers behind doors is also good.

However I wanted to practice rail and stile doors for my shop so went a different way on these cabinets. Next set is combo of SYS-AZ and traditional drawers.

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