Cabinet scraper vs. scraping plane?

[ear3]

I've been giving my card scraper a lot more work recently, and am considering upgrading due to the fatigue my fingers get from bending the card for long periods of time.  I've been trying to read up on the difference between cabinet scrapers (basically just a holder for the blade/card) and scraping planes, but I'm still uncertain about whether the plane is basically just a souped up version of the cabinet scraper, or whether there are reasons/applications why someone would choose one over the other (other than size/sole footprint).

And then in terms of the different scraping plane options, the one difference seems to be that the LV is engineered to bend the blade slightly, while the LN keeps the blade straight.  Also, does anyone know what the advantage/application of the toothed blades for the LN are?
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?p=48431&cat=1,41182,68491
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/large-scraping-plane

Finally, is it it difficult to sharpen/burnish the scraping plane blade?

 

[waho6o9]

York Pitch will handle most tear-out prone wood well.  Middle Pitch is for the most difficult woods.  Using one of these frogs will eliminate the need for scrapers, in most cases.
Will not fit other makes of planes.
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

Interesting thread Edward.

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.

 

[derekcohen]

Edward, I work with woods that have highly interlocked grain, and I never use my Stanley #112 or #80. In the past I would have first turned to a half pitch plane (60 degree cutting angle) in other BD (e.g. HNT Gordon) or BU (Veritas BUS) mode, but these days I prefer a BD Common pitch plane where I can set a closed up chipbreaker. For example, the Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog.

I do use card scrapers (or, as they are referred to in Australia and the UK, cabinet scrapers). However, these are generally reserved for small areas or curves.

My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[flair woodworks]

Edward,

In addition to saving fatigue in your hands, a scraping plane also helps keep the surface level. The purpose of bending the blade is to focus the scraping and prevent the corners from digging in. Grinding a radius on the corners of the blade has the same effect.

The toothed blade is intended for prep for veneering with hide glue, I believe.

 

[flair woodworks]

Also, scraper planes including the #80 are ground at 45 degrees. Sharpening and burnishing is not any more difficult than with card scrapers.

 

[Cheese]

https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.

Thanks for posting, I didn't know that many frogs were available for LN planes.[smile]  I thought there used to be only 2 options.
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/product...-scraping-plane-blade-toothed-18tpi?node=4104

 

[waho6o9]

You're welcome, it sure is fascinating how different angles solve different problems.

 

[Wooden Skye]

Edward, have you considered the following?  I find these help with my hands, the other thing is putting a magnet (kitchen/business card size) to cushion thumbs.
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1,310&p=32669

 

[ear3]

Thanks [member=7659]waho6o9[/member] I actually have a LN 4 1/2 with the 55 degree frog.  But it still occasionally tears out the wood, like on the Sapele I was working with the other week.  Thus the scraper interest...

York Pitch will handle most tear-out prone wood well.  Middle Pitch is for the most difficult woods.  Using one of these frogs will eliminate the need for scrapers, in most cases.
Will not fit other makes of planes.
https://www.lie-nielsen.com/nodes/4132/high-angle-frogs

Interesting thread Edward.

I know this doesn't answer your questions but I found the information from Lie Nielsen enlightening.

 

[ear3]

Thanks [member=14478]Wooden Skye[/member] That looks very useful.

Edward, have you considered the following?  I find these help with my hands, the other thing is putting a magnet (kitchen/business card size) to cushion thumbs.
http://www.leevalley.com/us/Wood/page.aspx?cat=1,310&p=32669

 

[ear3]

Thanks for the tips [member=4358]derekcohen[/member]

Edward, I work with woods that have highly interlocked grain, and I never use my Stanley #112 or #80. In the past I would have first turned to a half pitch plane (60 degree cutting angle) in other BD (e.g. HNT Gordon) or BU (Veritas BUS) mode, but these days I prefer a BD Common pitch plane where I can set a closed up chipbreaker. For example, the Veritas Custom #4 has a 42 degree frog.

I do use card scrapers (or, as they are referred to in Australia and the UK, cabinet scrapers). However, these are generally reserved for small areas or curves.

My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[derekcohen]

Edward, I also had a 55 degree frog in a LN 4 1/2. It was not enough to prevent tear out, and it was a bear to push. The cutting angle needs to be a minimum of 60 degrees when using high cutting angles. This makes them even more work to push. A scraper plane is even more so. When I mastered setting the chipbreaker, I replaced the frog with a 45 degree one. The chipbreaker controls tear out, and the lower cutting angle makes it easier to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[ear3]

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member] Thanks.  The tuning to which you are referring also includes the sharpening technique you show for the chipbreaker on your website, correct?

Edward, I also had a 55 degree frog in a LN 4 1/2. It was not enough to prevent tear out, and it was a bear to push. The cutting angle needs to be a minimum of 60 degrees when using high cutting angles. This makes them even more work to push. A scraper plane is even more so. When I mastered setting the chipbreaker, I replaced the frog with a 45 degree one. The chipbreaker controls tear out, and the lower cutting angle makes it easier to push.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[derekcohen]

Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[mouppe]

I had the LN scraper plane for many years, and never really got to like using it. The blade does not flex- you are right about this- but you sharpen it with a camber so the result is the same. I do have the LV cabinet scraper and much prefer it. Cheaper, easier to set up, and easier to use.

However, most of the time I use a simple hand scraper. I hold it differently to most people I've seen- my hands get less fatigued, my fingertips don't burn up as fast and I get more power. I found a picture of Paul Sellers using his the same way.

 

[ear3]

Thanks Derek.

Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[tiralie]

My advise is learn to use your hand planes.

Richard Maguire at the English Woodworker site has a great series on setting your cap irons to avoid tear out I find him very amusing, and he along with others does demystify a this stuff.
Tim

 

[Holmz]

Edward, this is the chipbreaker setting article:
http://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/SettingTheChipbreaker.html

When the chipbreaker is set up correctly, the shaving produced will straighten (not be curly). Here is an example of the #4 1/2 on Tasmanian Oak ..

...
Regards from Perth

Derek

[member=4358]derekcohen[/member] OK please help me understand...

1) LN #4-1/2
2) And use the 50 degree froghttps://www.lie-nielsen.com/product/high-angle-frogs-high-angle-frogs-for-no.-4-1-2-  ?
3) 55 degree frog
4) Set the chip breaker per your instructions link?

Is it 1+4, or 1+2+4 or 1+3+4 ?

Ta

 

[derekcohen]

Hi Holme

My preference is the lowest possible cutting angle (for LN this would be 45 degrees) and used with the chipbreaker.

This combination would produce the best results with the least physical effort.

Keep in mind that the 4 1/2 is a wide plane (2 3/8" wide blade). The plane becomes progressively harder to push as the cutting angle increases (as the frog angle increases). Waxing the sole of the plane helps greatly to reduce friction, making the plane easier to push, but you have to renew the wax constantly.

If you really want a high angle plane (perhaps, to not have to set the chipbreaker, which takes time to master), then go to a narrower plane. At the minimum I would not go above a #4. In fact, I purchased a #3 (1 3/4" blade). This was much easier to push, but a 55 degree frog did not offer the performance needed to avoid tear out on the interlocked grain of the local West Australian woods. A 45 degree frog using the chipbreaker did to the trick.

Just to emphasise the above, my go to smoother is a Veritas Custom #4 with a 42 degree frog. This is used with a chipbreaker. In addition to the lower cutting angle, this plane also uses the PM-V11 blade, which hones and cuts much better than the A2 steel of LN (my LN planes also have PM-V11 blades).

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[Holmz]

Thanks [member=4358]derekcohen[/member]
Let me start with the goal...
I want to end up with flat smooth shiny veneered panel.

The veneer will be on a stable base.
Most likely with solid wood edging attached to the base first, then vacuum-bag glueing the veneer to the base material and edging.
Then some combo of either a Maloof (linseed+tung) with lacquer over it, or just a lacquer

I was leaning towards a belt sander with 240 or 300+ belts and then some 600 on a random orbital.
I am wondering if I would be better off using a plane or scraper to get the surface smooth and flat.

The edging also is producing some beard-stroking as I am concerned it mad want to pull away from the base with humidity/temp expansion and contraction.

I am considering the edging to be 10-12 mm wide and biscuited onto the substraight, before levelling it to be even with the surface... Then veneer.

How would a smart or wise person go about it?