Can a plunge cut saw truly replace a table saw?

[Deansocial]

If it could replace a table saw they wouldnt make a cms module to turn it into 1

 

[RC]

If you have space in your shop and money in your purse go for both and add a band saw into the mix for completeness.

They all have their strongpoints and cookie cutter applications, but if you answer no to either question then a TS saw with an MFT table can get you a long way with some extra effort without a table or bandsaw.

I don't have space and therefore opted for a TS55 + MFT + CMS combination and most of the time can't be bothered to convert the saw into the CMS even for narrow rips if I'm not batching them.

It's just so much faster to throw an identical thickness support under the other edge of my rail and run the saw on the rail for narrow rips that are shorter than my rails than drag the CMS base out from under the stairs, find all the bits and bobs for the insert and patch them together for a single rip.

What I mostly wish I had was a planer & jointer but unfortunately there is no CMS insert with either function. :-(

 

[cgmojoco]

My opinion-->

Can it?  Yes; with SEVERAL ACCESORIES you can generate the same resulting cut with a TrackSaw that you can with a Table Saw---short of dados (but alas, a router might be better suited anyhow...who likes changing their TableSaw blades?  Not me!)

Should it?  Depends...on space, level of work (hobbyist with time/hobbyist without time/production), type of work (cabinets/furniture/carpentry), need for speed of setup to make repeatable cuts?

Most likely, if space isn't a super issue, having a smaller table saw in the garage is a good idea as setup is just faster for certain things  --- though you better get some training on how to use one properly, with good riving knife (never use without a splitter or riving knife!), support for the work you are doing (infeed outfeed need to support properly ALWAYS), etc as they are very dangerous for untrained (Tracksaw support is an issue but much safer and untrained should be ok).  If you are working on site, you still might bring the smaller table saw along with your tracksaw as it can be useful onsite too (so a lighter one is necessary).

If you are doing semi-production to serious-production work without a tablesaw in the shop, its probably not optimal.

If you are ripping full sheets on a contractor tablesaw, its not optimal.

Personally, I don't have a table saw and I get by, though I have several locations including a woodworking college that have one I can use and I do, but I don't go out of my way to drive to use it; just if I happen to make a trip their anyhow.  I won't use any that aren't with the Saw Stop safety...wish I had room (both in wallet and garage) for one at home...as using a saw in public place of untrained students is a safety issue in itself as some people are just down right idiots.  I get by with my TS75, parallel guides, MFT3---and since I need to break down sheet goods...and work on site sometimes I like this better than a contractor saw if I had to choose.  I might add a contractor SawStop at some point just to speed things up some...but I'm not going with a big-old cabinet saw since I can't bring it on site.

Another way to look at things is... can a smaller contractor table saw replace a tracksaw?  My answer would be NO!  You NEED a Tracksaw for many tasks (safer, quicker...)

Christopher

 

[Tinker]

What I mostly wish I had was a planer & jointer but unfortunately there is no CMS insert with either function. :-(

There is a jointer insert.  The router fence is adjustable.  I've used a router table with far less accuracy than the CMS router fence for a joiner for years.  With a long spiral bit, I have joined 2x lumber with a cheeeeep Craftsman table and adjustable fence.
Tinker

 

[Jmaichel]

As this topic comes up often and having tried to replace a table saw with a track saw myself, I have come to the conclusion that maybe that this should no longer be a table saw vs track saw debate. If you think about it a table saw and track saw can actually be complimentary tools. I would not want to handle a full size sheet goods with a table saw but if I was cutting several drawers of a the same size with grooves then a table saw would be more appropriate. A router could work for grooves and dados but the bits don't always fit the exact size of the material and you can get a better fit with a dado stack. A couple people have posted that have invested in a small portable saw or a contractor saw and this has worked out very well for them.

 

[RC]

What I mostly wish I had was a planer & jointer but unfortunately there is no CMS insert with either function. :-(

There is a jointer insert.  The router fence is adjustable.  I've used a router table with far less accuracy than the CMS router fence for a joiner for years.  With a long spiral bit, I have joined 2x lumber with a cheeeeep Craftsman table and adjustable fence.

Well, yes for that specific use one can do edge jointing on the router, but I was referring to general rough cut lumber preparation and dimensioning planing & jointing capabilities... Something to the tone of 300mm minimum capacity. 

I can joint edges up to 65mm on my EHL-65 planer in it's table station quite happily and quicker than setting up the CMS for router use but it still can't dimension even a simple 2x4 [wink]

 

[RC]

As this topic comes up often and having tried to replace a table saw with a track saw myself, I have come to the conclusion that maybe that this should no longer be a table saw vs track saw debate. If you think about it a table saw and track saw can actually be complimentary tools. I would not want to handle a full size sheet goods with a table saw but if I was cutting several drawers of a the same size with grooves then a table saw would be more appropriate. A router could work for grooves and dados but the bits don't always fit the exact size of the material and you can get a better fit with a dado stack. A couple people have posted that have invested in a small portable saw or a contractor saw and this has worked out very well for them.

Just out of curiosity - are there any dado stack blades that can be installed in a hand saw like the TS55?

I've never seen these stack-blades sold here in Europe, so I don't have a clue how they fit a table saw much less a hand held one. Just wondering could I use one in my TS55 when it's inserted into the CMS-module  [unsure]

 

[Wonderwino]

I've had a 5hp Jet cabinet saw with a 52" fence for about 15 years and I wouldn't give it up, but I would trade it for a smaller SawStop cabinet saw.  I never use the wider fence capacity since getting my Festool TS saws.  I mostly use it with a sled or tenoning jig now.  The right extension table is more of a junk-collecting shelf.

If I were starting from scratch, I would get one of the Festool TS saws, MFT/3, Parallel Guides, CT dust extractor and a 3000mm rail.  I used that setup out of the shop to do everything I could do on a tablesaw and more.  With the parallel guides, you can cut tapered strips very easily, which I had to do for window returns in an old, out of plumb building.  The longer rail (or several joined together) will let you make joint-ready edge rips on long boards.  I had to make 17' cuts alone for a bar I built, which would have been very difficult with a tablesaw, even with a 50' workspace and several helpers.  To break down sheet goods, I have an old banquet table with a sheet of 1-1/2" foam insulation on it.  That also works for ripping thin strips w/o the parallel guides if you shim the rail up with scrap material.  The MFT/3 Lets the TS55 act like a tablesaw sled for crosscuts and repetitive parts.

If you start out with the deluxe Festool setup I outlined above, you will have about the same investment that a good small cabinet saw will cost - and it can go with you, anywhere.  Then, if you still think you need it, get a small SawStop tablesaw or a good 16" bandsaw.

 

[ccarrolladams]

Just out of curiosity - are there any dado stack blades that can be installed in a hand saw like the TS55?

I've never seen these stack-blades sold here in Europe, so I don't have a clue how they fit a table saw much less a hand held one. Just wondering could I use one in my TS55 when it's inserted into the CMS-module  [unsure]

Reiska, check your local regulations. Generally most places in Europe have not permitted stacked dado heads for many years. That could explain why you cannot find one to buy.

The TS55 is designed to only work with blades similar to the kind supplied with it. There is no space for a blade much thicker than 3mm to return to the up position. The spindle of the TS saws is not long enough to hold a dado head.

 

[upscale]

If I was to purchase a plunge cut saw, will I still need to invest in a (perhaps "cheaper") table saw for some cuts that the plunge cut saw and the miter saw just can't cover.

Let me precondition this reply with the fact that I grew up only knowing about and using tablesaws, so take my answer with a grain of salt.

All things being equal, I have to believe there's a number of things that the tablesaw can do faster and easier than the plunge cut saw. Shaving a piece of wood fractions of an inch is the main thing that comes to mind. When you want something to fit perfectly, then I feel the tablesaw wins hands down with speed and accuracy. There's something to be said for being able to visualize that merest slice of wood as it's being removed.

Sure you can do it with a plunge cut saw. But, realigning it for repeated slices is tedious and time consuming compared to the tablesaw.

But, portability and on the jobsite conditions, the plunge cut saw wins hands down. Nobody I know takes their cabinet saw to a worksite. Contractor's saws sure. I know with a good aftermarket fence and a decent carbide blade, you can do really decent cabinet work, but it's still just a little less than what a cabinet saw can do.

IMHO...

 

[Claimdude]

Of course not. It has been demonstrably proven that accurate cutting of straight lines simply wasn't done before machine tools came along. None of the work was accurate, clean, or of lasting quality.

Pfeh.

Can it replace a table saw? Is that the right question?

How about, 'Can I develop alternate techniques that will let you do (X) with ease?'

The answer's yes. Evolve your shop equipment and your work habits and techniques side-by-side.

Thought and effort are required, but yes, table saws aren't the be-all and end all.

That said, I'm still keeping mine.

+1 what James said

Jack

 

[Tinker]

I had to make a choice between another MFT table and keeping my table saw.
I decided the third MFT would be more useful than the old Table Saw.  I ended up with less open floor space and no Table Saw.
Do I miss the table saw?  Yes, at times.  There are a few operations that are definitely quicker and easier with the table saw.
Overall, I think i made the right choice.  I have two of my MFT's taking up the floor space i had needed to use my table saw.
But i can do a whole lot with those two MFT's than i ever could have accomplished had i had only the Table Saw.
There are many times that I want to rip something too thick to do with my ATF 55 and I go to my old bandsaw.
That I don't think I could be without.  It is somewhere high on the list between the ATF 55 and my trusty handsaws.
Tinker

 

[Tinker]

Of course not. It has been demonstrably proven that accurate cutting of straight lines simply wasn't done before machine tools came along. None of the work was accurate, clean, or of lasting quality.

When I was in high school, and until a couple of years after my military obligation, I had a neighbor ho was a cabinetmaker.  He had grown up in Glasgow when he had served his apprenticeship.  He was sort of cranky and most kids in the neighborhood were somewhat afraid of him.  Me, I was cranky too; and we had many an argument together. He knew I was interested in woodwork and he told me many stories about his days in "Tha auld countree."  When he was finally retiring (around 70 yrs) he asked me over to his house where he gave me the table he had made to complete his apprenticeship to journeyman cabinetmaker.  The table had been crafted completely by hand.  I still have that table.  The problem being there is no room to display, or even use it in our small house.  It is hidden away in the attic.  I have looked that table over many ties and can see no clue the it was made completely by hand.  The tapered legs are round with rows of fluting.  The top is molded edged, having been molded with hand planes.  the skirts have carvings, perhaps the only place where it can be seen the work had been done by hand.  I have put 4 ft levels agains the edges and i can find no humps, bumps or hollows along those edges.  Every cut is perfect and straight.  I can't immagine the hours the man had put into building that table. 

Any time anybody tells me boards cannot be cut straight using hand tools, I think of my old cabinetmaker neighbor. I can't do it myself, but i still have that over 100 year old table that proves it can be done.
Tinker

 

[Gene Howerton]

Had a table saw, sold when I got my MFT.  I missed the table saw for ripping since it is just faster, so I went out to Lowe's and bought a Dewalt 745 on sale for $300.00.  I read the review of it on This is Carpentry and liked what they said. 

I built a stand for it that makes the top the same height as the MFT and it works great.  The Dust collection also is pretty good on it as well.  The dust shoot on it perfectly fits the 50 mm hose that goes to the dust deputy and into the CT 22 I have it mounted on.  If you could mount a dust hose on top blade like the festool does with the CMS for the TS55 it would catch just about all of the dust.

I really like the fence on the saw as well.  You can dial it down to just what you need.  Nice saw, small footprint and pretty good dust collection.  I really like it.

 

[rdesigns]

Any time anybody tells me boards cannot be cut straight using hand tools, I think of my old cabinetmaker neighbor. I can't do it myself, but i still have that over 100 year old table that proves it can be done.
Tinker
[/quote]

Great story, thanks.
It's easy to underestimate the potential precision of eye/hand coordination that people can achieve with practice. And just how quickly they can do things with years of practice.

I did many of my early projects with only hand tools, and I could quite quickly edge-joint long oak boards perfectly with only a try plane and a good workbench.

 

[Jay Knoll]

Since no one has mentioned cost (prices from Tool Nut)

Festool T55 + CT36 package    $1125.50
MFT/3                                            605
Parallel Guide Set                          650
Parallel Guide Extension               142
118" Guide Rail                             315
Total                                          $2824.50

From Amazon

Sawstop CNS175-TGP36 1-3/4 HP Contractor Saw with 36-Inch Professional T-Glide Fence System including Rails and Extension Table
by SawStop
5.0 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (2 customer reviews) | Like 1349280070 false -1 4 4 3 (4)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
List Price: $1,949.00
Price: $1,799.00  

So, if portablilty isn't an issue, maybe there are cheaper alternatives

Not that I don't like Festool products, and I do own a T55, but if the SS had been available at the time I bought my T55, I might have gone a different course.  As it is, I did buy the SS and I use it much more than my Festool track saw

Jay

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Jay,

The parallel guide extension SET is only $325 and you don't need the CT 36.  A mini will work and that package is $919.  Also the 1400 guide rail comes with the TS 55 or can be upgraded for the price difference.

 

[Jay Knoll]

SorryKen I don't know what I was looking at

Since no one has mentioned cost (prices from Tool Nut)

Festool T55 + CT36 package    $1125.50
MFT/3                                            605
Parallel Guide Set                          325
118" Guide Rail                            315
Total                                          $2370.5

From Amazon

Sawstop CNS175-TGP36 1-3/4 HP Contractor Saw with 36-Inch Professional T-Glide Fence System including Rails and Extension Table
by SawStop
5.0 out of 5 stars  See all reviews (2 customer reviews) | Like 1349280070 false -1 4 4 3 (4)
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
List Price: $1,949.00
Price: $1,799.00 

I like having a long rail to work off the MFT and a short rail set up on the MFT, so in my comparison I'll keep that in 

If you go the mini route then the prices are getting closer  ($2164 Festool  $1799 SawStop)

As they say, LOTS of choices out there!
Jay

 

[Rocky]

Mobile base and dust collection will increase price of SS.

 

[ScotF]

Another thing to consider is the small discount buying a saw and MFT/3 together might be more than the saw and mini (or different CT) together since I believe it equates to a 10% savings off of either MFT or CT extractor.  There are also lots of jigs/accessories that make working with either tool easier and more useful.  Jay, your breakdown includes most of what I would purchase with a Festool saw, but for the traditional tablesaw I would add hoses for dust extraction (both above and below the table) and for that matter, one might even need to buy a dust extractor powerful enough to suck the saw dust from the saw itself -- that will add a lot ot the cost.  Also, I do not typically use the miter gauge supplied with the saw and opt for a better after market gauge -- again, this adds to the baseline cost.

Lots of things to consider and as I indicated earlier, you have your definite "yes" and definite "no" camps and really there is no right answer.  [wink]

Scot