CAN I USE A CS50 or CS70 TABLE SAW TO CUT METAL BARS AND SHEETS?????

[MichaelW2014]

I'm thinking about getting a festool table saw. I live in Europe. I am weighing the options for getting the CS50 or CS70. I primarily work with wood, but I plan to get into working with metal. I had a friend who used his portable makita table saw to cut metal parts, including sheets and bars. So I know it can be done, but what's the low down on this situation? SHould I get the bigger table saw, the CS70, to make cutting metal more viable?

I can't get a regular size table saw because i have very limited space. I'm working in a  2 bedroom apartment.  [big grin]

 

[wrightwoodwork]

Yes it can be done, all you have to do is buy the correct saw blade. Festool has them listed for the purpose and adjust your speed for the material being cut. I have the mafell Erika which shows you the recommended speeds fir different materials. I guess the festool cs50/70 will do. The one thing to be aware is the cs70 takes 225mm blades which isn't a very common size so there isn't a great deal of choice. Leitz make in fact I think they make the blades fir festool and others.  There will be a minimum blade size maybe 210. Which will loose a bit of depth but a lot if tasks it won't matter. If you are doing more woodworking then the cs70 is the one to get out of the 2 as more power motor

 

[MichaelW2014]

Yes it can be done, all you have to do is buy the correct saw blade. Festool has them listed for the purpose and adjust your speed for the material being cut. I have the mafell Erika which shows you the recommended speeds fir different materials. I guess the festool cs50/70 will do. The one thing to be aware is the cs70 takes 225mm blades which isn't a very common size so there isn't a great deal of choice. Leitz make in fact I think they make the blades fir festool and others.   There will be a minimum blade size maybe 210. Which will loose a bit of depth but a lot if tasks it won't matter. If you are doing more woodworking then the cs70 is the one to get out of the 2 as more power motor

the erika looks like a very nice machine. but i am already in the festool "garden" and i don't know much about mafell, regarding compatibility. it's just kind of hard to think about a different brand at this point. the festool cs50 seems to be way to go for me. are the blades for this machine also limited, or do they accepts a universal size. 190mm. this is a miter saw size blade, right?

with this machine i would want to cut wood and cut sheet of metal up to 1/4" thick.

Right now I am leaning toward getting the CS50 because it seems to have the same power range as the cs70, with the only difference between the two being a slightly bigger work table on the cs70 (4"), and a slightly larger blade. The CS50 is 2/3 the price of the CS70 so I am leaning toward getting this smaller machine.

How are you enjoying the Mafell, Erika? The speed setting instructions sound handy--I am not sure if the CS50/70 has the same thing. i'm sure it has something like that, besides, i could easily figure that out. Does the Erka have all the many options as the CS50? The options, scalability, on this machine are awesome--all the accessory parts you can add to it are exciting. thanks for your input.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Yes it can be done, all you have to do is buy the correct saw blade. Festool has them listed for the purpose and adjust your speed for the material being cut. I have the mafell Erika which shows you the recommended speeds fir different materials. I guess the festool cs50/70 will do. The one thing to be aware is the cs70 takes 225mm blades which isn't a very common size so there isn't a great deal of choice. Leitz make in fact I think they make the blades fir festool and others.   There will be a minimum blade size maybe 210. Which will loose a bit of depth but a lot if tasks it won't matter. If you are doing more woodworking then the cs70 is the one to get out of the 2 as more power motor

why did you choose the mafell erika over the cs50/70?

 

[rst]

Just a heads up which may or may not be obvious....the only metals you should be cutting with these are the non-ferrous...aluminum, brass or copper.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

If you are cutting up to an inch oak timbers I recon the cs50 will be perfectly good enough. It will cut over up to 2" not sure how it would cope with hardwoods. Softwoods I guess would be fine. The one thing I would recommend regardless of who's or which machine you go for is to use the appropriate blade for the task. Especially if you go for the cs50 which has only a 1200 watt motor. There is no need to put unnessary load on the motor with the right blade.  There is a learning curve to using these type saws. They are simple once you have learned how to an example would be if you are used to using likes of a kapex say for example doing skirting on the flat it is placed the opposite way up on the table as the blade angle the other direction. I'm extremely happy with the Erika it still amazes me how accurate it is there is no lasers to me it doesn't need. If I want to rip something say 72mm all I have to do is set the fence on 72 there is no need to get out the tape measure or rule and measure from the the blade to the fence it will be no more than 1/2 mm out which to me is good enough.  Also I have what mafell call the multi purpose fence which is pure genius. It is a pity festool don't do there own version for people who own the cs saws. If I want to cut a piece of wood 450mm long square I just hold on 450 and it gets cut 450 as long as it has being set up correctly. The clever bit is if I want to cut and angle say 13,37,52 and I I want it to be 450 to the long point then I still hold it on 450 and it gets cut bang on. It is the one accessory festool should add.  I have the 1m guide fence rail and drop stop. Just the other week I was I was doing finishings in a house and was making the loft hatch opening. I worked out my sizes for long point to long point. 2 where one size say 756 and the other 2 where 962. I had the apprentice working with us. There was 4 cuttings a little bigger than I needed I set the stop to the first size made the the first cut the placed it against the stop and mitre at 45 the opposite hand and the same with next. So that was the first pair done for the next pair I readjusted the stop to next size and repeated the process. I didn't once take a tape measure or pencil out my pocket to make the cuts other than at the beginning to work out the sizes. I placed it around the frame spot on no taking the block plane out to re adjust the mitre to make it fit.  He was quite amazed. Last week was doing 6 " skirting when using the chop saw the bevel would end up off the square where when I used the Erika cut was dead square at 45. On these type saws regardless of it being mafell or festool you don't have the operator putting any pressure on the the saw blade cause in accuracy. The reason I went for the mafell is it more stable I have a few of the mafell products and am extremely happy with them as I work on uk sites which only allow 110 the mafell version is more powerful than the festool in 110. At the time I was wanting a new chop saw and table saw and thought I would find out about these type saws a bit more so went to a national trade show where I could see them very impressed and decided it would fit my needs perfect. I could add accessories as and when I needed them I have just recently got the 1m rails and table extensions which can also take a router, the mafe router fits direct. Which I don't have. I have festool routers which can also be fitted with an adapter plate thing. When I purchased the saw and it is ridiculous expensive there is no way around it, not that for one second I regret the purchase in fact if I needed an other tomorrow I would buy again. Unless you make a live from using it I wouldn't recommended it purely as it is so expensive for doing small work the cs50 will do the job perfectly well enough. I was very lucky in that I know the main dealer for mafell in the uk. He come to an arrangement with mafell in germany that helped me out. I take it you source for the cs saws I thought some people in white suits or maybe black don't like as it don't have some number thing. Have you thought about cms set. 

 

[MichaelW2014]

If you are cutting up to an inch oak timbers I recon the cs50 will be perfectly good enough. It will cut over up to 2" not sure how it would cope with hardwoods. Softwoods I guess would be fine. The one thing I would recommend regardless of who's or which machine you go for is to use the appropriate blade for the task. Especially if you go for the cs50 which has only a 1200 watt motor. There is no need to put unnessary load on the motor with the right blade.   There is a learning curve to using these type saws. They are simple once you have learned how to an example would be if you are used to using likes of a kapex say for example doing skirting on the flat it is placed the opposite way up on the table as the blade angle the other direction. I'm extremely happy with the Erika it still amazes me how accurate it is there is no lasers to me it doesn't need. If I want to rip something say 72mm all I have to do is set the fence on 72 there is no need to get out the tape measure or rule and measure from the the blade to the fence it will be no more than 1/2 mm out which to me is good enough.  Also I have what mafell call the multi purpose fence which is pure genius. It is a pity festool don't do there own version for people who own the cs saws. If I want to cut a piece of wood 450mm long square I just hold on 450 and it gets cut 450 as long as it has being set up correctly. The clever bit is if I want to cut and angle say 13,37,52 and I I want it to be 450 to the long point then I still hold it on 450 and it gets cut bang on. It is the one accessory festool should add.  I have the 1m guide fence rail and drop stop. Just the other week I was I was doing finishings in a house and was making the loft hatch opening. I worked out my sizes for long point to long point. 2 where one size say 756 and the other 2 where 962. I had the apprentice working with us. There was 4 cuttings a little bigger than I needed I set the stop to the first size made the the first cut the placed it against the stop and mitre at 45 the opposite hand and the same with next. So that was the first pair done for the next pair I readjusted the stop to next size and repeated the process. I didn't once take a tape measure or pencil out my pocket to make the cuts other than at the beginning to work out the sizes. I placed it around the frame spot on no taking the block plane out to re adjust the mitre to make it fit.  He was quite amazed. Last week was doing 6 " skirting when using the chop saw the bevel would end up off the square where when I used the Erika cut was dead square at 45. On these type saws regardless of it being mafell or festool you don't have the operator putting any pressure on the the saw blade cause in accuracy. The reason I went for the mafell is it more stable I have a few of the mafell products and am extremely happy with them as I work on uk sites which only allow 110 the mafell version is more powerful than the festool in 110. At the time I was wanting a new chop saw and table saw and thought I would find out about these type saws a bit more so went to a national trade show where I could see them very impressed and decided it would fit my needs perfect. I could add accessories as and when I needed them I have just recently got the 1m rails and table extensions which can also take a router, the mafe router fits direct. Which I don't have. I have festool routers which can also be fitted with an adapter plate thing. When I purchased the saw and it is ridiculous expensive there is no way around it, not that for one second I regret the purchase in fact if I needed an other tomorrow I would buy again. Unless you make a live from using it I wouldn't recommended it purely as it is so expensive for doing small work the cs50 will do the job perfectly well enough. I was very lucky in that I know the main dealer for mafell in the uk. He come to an arrangement with mafell in germany that helped me out. I take it you source for the cs saws I thought some people in white suits or maybe black don't like as it don't have some number thing. Have you thought about cms set. 

hmm, i have to look into the power ratings for these saws. As i plan to cut sheet metal and metal bars and things, i should have a strong enough motor. Yes, of course the right blade matters. I know that much.

yes, it's the accuracy that compels me to buy festool. I'm a perfectionist.

One thing that concerns me about the festool and mafell products is the universality of the blades. I have to do more research on this. but i want to be able to buy blades from companies such as Freud.  I am living in Greece. I will be purchasing my tools from amazon.de. That's the least expensive way to go. If i buy from a local dealer I will pay a lot more. 

That's fence thing on your erika is intriguing. i have to look into it to figure out what you mean. i can't conceptualize it now.

thanks again

 

[MichaelW2014]

If you are cutting up to an inch oak timbers I recon the cs50 will be perfectly good enough. It will cut over up to 2" not sure how it would cope with hardwoods. Softwoods I guess would be fine. The one thing I would recommend regardless of who's or which machine you go for is to use the appropriate blade for the task. Especially if you go for the cs50 which has only a 1200 watt motor. There is no need to put unnessary load on the motor with the right blade.   There is a learning curve to using these type saws. They are simple once you have learned how to an example would be if you are used to using likes of a kapex say for example doing skirting on the flat it is placed the opposite way up on the table as the blade angle the other direction. I'm extremely happy with the Erika it still amazes me how accurate it is there is no lasers to me it doesn't need. If I want to rip something say 72mm all I have to do is set the fence on 72 there is no need to get out the tape measure or rule and measure from the the blade to the fence it will be no more than 1/2 mm out which to me is good enough.  Also I have what mafell call the multi purpose fence which is pure genius. It is a pity festool don't do there own version for people who own the cs saws. If I want to cut a piece of wood 450mm long square I just hold on 450 and it gets cut 450 as long as it has being set up correctly. The clever bit is if I want to cut and angle say 13,37,52 and I I want it to be 450 to the long point then I still hold it on 450 and it gets cut bang on. It is the one accessory festool should add.  I have the 1m guide fence rail and drop stop. Just the other week I was I was doing finishings in a house and was making the loft hatch opening. I worked out my sizes for long point to long point. 2 where one size say 756 and the other 2 where 962. I had the apprentice working with us. There was 4 cuttings a little bigger than I needed I set the stop to the first size made the the first cut the placed it against the stop and mitre at 45 the opposite hand and the same with next. So that was the first pair done for the next pair I readjusted the stop to next size and repeated the process. I didn't once take a tape measure or pencil out my pocket to make the cuts other than at the beginning to work out the sizes. I placed it around the frame spot on no taking the block plane out to re adjust the mitre to make it fit.  He was quite amazed. Last week was doing 6 " skirting when using the chop saw the bevel would end up off the square where when I used the Erika cut was dead square at 45. On these type saws regardless of it being mafell or festool you don't have the operator putting any pressure on the the saw blade cause in accuracy. The reason I went for the mafell is it more stable I have a few of the mafell products and am extremely happy with them as I work on uk sites which only allow 110 the mafell version is more powerful than the festool in 110. At the time I was wanting a new chop saw and table saw and thought I would find out about these type saws a bit more so went to a national trade show where I could see them very impressed and decided it would fit my needs perfect. I could add accessories as and when I needed them I have just recently got the 1m rails and table extensions which can also take a router, the mafe router fits direct. Which I don't have. I have festool routers which can also be fitted with an adapter plate thing. When I purchased the saw and it is ridiculous expensive there is no way around it, not that for one second I regret the purchase in fact if I needed an other tomorrow I would buy again. Unless you make a live from using it I wouldn't recommended it purely as it is so expensive for doing small work the cs50 will do the job perfectly well enough. I was very lucky in that I know the main dealer for mafell in the uk. He come to an arrangement with mafell in germany that helped me out. I take it you source for the cs saws I thought some people in white suits or maybe black don't like as it don't have some number thing. Have you thought about cms set. 

i strongly considered the CMS station. and i have a 1010 festool router. but i am concerned with it being less accurate than a dedicated table saw. also, changing the router and saw seems like a lot of fuss. too much effort really. are my concerns incorrect?

 

[AlexThePalex]

About blades, in contrary to what was mentioned above, the 225 mm is a very common blade here in Europe, and many variations from many manufacturers are available.

But the CS50 on the other hand, I was under the impression it had a special arbor nut with a special hole pattern that is not so common. See pic below.

[attachthumb=1]

I am not sure though if this is the only option for the CS 50, maybe somebody who owns it can weigh in.

Festools blades for metal are only for non-ferrous metals. So no steel/iron.

Admittedly I have little experience cutting metal, but I am not sure it's all that wise to use a table saw.

 

[MichaelW2014]

About blades, in contrary to what was mentioned above, the 225 mm is a very common blade here in Europe, and many variations from many manufacturers are available.

But the CS50 on the other hand, I was under the impression it had a special arbor nut with a special hole pattern that is not so common. See pic below.

[attachthumb=1]

I am not sure though if this is the only option for the CS 50, maybe somebody who owns it can weigh in.

Festools blades for metal are only for non-ferrous metals. So no steel/iron.

Admittedly I have little experience cutting metal, but I am not sure it's all that wise to use a table saw.

hmm, yeah, i see that hole pattern.
how do you know this about the blades for the CS70--do you own this machine?
can you attach the festool portable table to it?
yes, non ferrous only.

i like that movie too.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

The accuracy of the Erika is spot on obviously it needs to be set up right. To check is very simply a case of checking the fence is parallel with the blade. It will be the same principle with festool. On the mafell fences they have detents every 15 degrees and 22.5. The detents can be turned off so if you need to set the angle at 45.2 it will not fall into the detent and be 45. Like can happen with a lot chop saws. I think the festool fences work the same sort of way. I have the Erika 70 which is the equivalent of the cs70 it takes blades from 210-225mm. You would have to check with festool what the size range is for there saws. Leitz do 225mm blades. Frued as far as I know don't they do 220mm blades which fall in your range. So don't let 225 put you off. The only thing you will loose is 2.5mm which won't matter for 99% of the time.

 

[wrightwoodwork]

About blades, in contrary to what was mentioned above, the 225 mm is a very common blade here in Europe, and many variations from many manufacturers are available.

But the CS50 on the other hand, I was under the impression it had a special arbor nut with a special hole pattern that is not so common. See pic below.

[attachthumb=1]

I am not sure though if this is the only option for the CS 50, maybe somebody who owns it can weigh in.

Festools blades for metal are only for non-ferrous metals. So no steel/iron.

Admittedly I have little experience cutting metal, but I am not sure it's all that wise to use a table saw.

In the uk getting 225mm blades can be a pain it would be handy to have a list obviously there is festool and mafell. I have also found leitz and titman some others would be good to know about as well

 

[MichaelW2014]

The accuracy of the Erika is spot on obviously it needs to be set up right. To check is very simply a case of checking the fence is parallel with the blade. It will be the same principle with festool. On the mafell fences they have detents every 15 degrees and 22.5. The detents can be turned off so if you need to set the angle at 45.2 it will not fall into the detent and be 45. Like can happen with a lot chop saws. I think the festool fences work the same sort of way. I have the Erika 70 which is the equivalent of the cs70 it takes blades from 210-225mm. You would have to check with festool what the size range is for there saws. Leitz do 225mm blades. Frued as far as I know don't they do 220mm blades which fall in your range. So don't let 225 put you off. The only thing you will loose is 2.5mm which won't matter for 99% of the time.

thanks for the info on adjusting the tables. All that info on the blades answered a question regarding baldes for the CS70. Now I want to know if the CS50 is in fact limited to a closed garden blade type. If it is limited, i would be swayed to buying the CS70 for this reason alone. The CS70's power is also a big consideration that I am having trouble figuring out. There are a lot of "what ifs" running through my mind (what if i need that extra blade size--what if i need that extra power to cut through a sheet of copper).

I guess a smaller motor would just mean a slower cut, and possibly a lower ceiling of what it can possibly cut?

 

[AlexThePalex]

how do you know this about the blades for the CS70--do you own this machine?

Yes, I own the CS70. But I also know what's common over here because I frequent stores and websites. You say you order from Amazon Germany, as long as you order there you can get everything you need because Germany is the nexus of (tool) manufacturing in Europe. I'd also keep an eye on http://www.gerschwitz.net/ , it is a very big German tool store with excellent service, reasonable prices and a wide European reach.

Btw, you're not limited to 225 mm blades, smaller will also fit as long as they have an arbor hole of 30mm. For instance, I have a DW65 circular saw with 190mm blades and I often use the 190mm blades in the CS 70. You loose some depth, but most of the times I don't need it anyway.

In the uk getting 225mm blades can be a pain it would be handy to have a list obviously there is festool and mafell. I have also found leitz and titman some others would be good to know about as well

It's hard to generalise UK things to the rest of Europe because in many ways the UK sets itself apart from the rest of Europe.

 

[MichaelW2014]

how do you know this about the blades for the CS70--do you own this machine?

Yes, I own the CS70. But I also know what's common over here because I frequent stores and websites. You say you order from Amazon Germany, as long as you order there you can get everything you need because Germany is the nexus of (tool) manufacturing in Europe. I'd also keep an eye on http://www.gerschwitz.net/ , it is a very big German tool store with excellent service, reasonable prices and a wide European reach.

Btw, you're not limited to 225 mm blades, smaller will also fit as long as they have an arbor hole of 30mm. For instance, I have a DW65 circular saw with 190mm blades and I often use the 190mm blades in the CS 70. You loose some depth, but most of the times I don't need it anyway.

In the uk getting 225mm blades can be a pain it would be handy to have a list obviously there is festool and mafell. I have also found leitz and titman some others would be good to know about as well

It's hard to generalise UK things to the rest of Europe because in many ways the UK sets itself apart from the rest of Europe.

I'll have a look at this tool store you recommended.

I will rarely need a blade that has a reach over 3". So many blades will probably work for me. I just want a blade that makes super clean cuts. The best, no tear out at all, for the picture frames I make.
In a couple years, metal stuff, when i also buy a welding machine and get a more suitable work-space.

Why did you choose the 70 instead of the 50?
When would a more powerful motor really come in handy? Perhaps when cutting metal or thick wood? I've hardly ever used a table saw, and of the tools I own I rarely ever wish I had more power. Though I do with the festool vac i have had about 10-20% more suction power.
Metal is probably where more power would really come in handy?
I have to find out if the blades for the 50 is a walled garden, so to speak.
Thanks again for the info.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Also, does the MFT3 connect to the CS70?
Is it possible to remove the legs from the CS70?
How much do you think the legs weigh?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Why did you choose the 70 instead of the 50?

I just wanted a table saw, Festools' seemed nice. Ruled out the CMS and decided on the CS50 because it was the cheapest. Didn't have the funds for a new one so I looked on a website for used stuff. The CS70 was the first one to come around for a good price so I took that one. In hindsight, I am glad that I got this one instead of the smaller and less powerfull CS50.

When would a more powerful motor really come in handy? Perhaps when cutting metal or thick wood? I've hardly ever used a table saw, and of the tools I own I rarely ever wish I had more power. Though I do with the festool vac i have had about 10-20% more suction power.
Metal is probably where more power would really come in handy?

Where you really notice the usefulness of the extra power is when sawing thicker hardwood. Hardwood above 4 cm thick can be a challenge, even with the CS70. The saw goes through it, but you see it really has to work for it. I wouldn't want to do that with a less powerful saw. As for metal, it does aluminium profiles without problem, but I guess steel would be more of a challenge, depending on the thickness. 

Also, does the MFT3 connect to the CS70?

Don't know. I don't have an MFT/3. But it has the same V profile on the side, and knowing Festool they're probably the same height. I have all the extensions for the CS70 and together they make a very usefull surface.

Is it possible to remove the legs from the CS70?

Yes, it's very easy to remove the legs. Just unscrew the knobs for tightening them completely.

How much do you think the legs weigh?

Dunno exactly, but they weight very little. The saw itself weighs quite a bit though at 33 kilos. Not that easy to get up the stairs.

 

[MichaelW2014]

Thanks for all the info. I have decided on the CS70. It seems to be the best value and the most versatile. It's very expensive but I figure it will be the only table saw I ever buy or need. I can't afford all the extensions and parts. I'm going to get the basic set; the one that comes with legs, extraction tubes, and miter gauge rail.

Of all these saw blade manufacturers listed above, which of them is known to make the very best blades? I need a blade for making miter cuts for picture frames out of small bars of mostly soft wood, such as poplar. I would go with the 48 tooth festool blade if i knew it cut perfectly. But there are blades out there with twice as many teeth that might perform better, give cleaner cuts? Maybe I am over-complicating things and the 48 tooth cuts perfectly?

Can you use dado stacks on the CS70? I see the opening for the blade is about 1cm thick. is there any way to change this or buy a different table top to accommodate dado stacks that are up to 1.5" thick?

I'm also looking to buy two clamps--have you used the "lever clamp FS-HZ 160"? Is it sturdy?

Also, very important, I need to cut full lap joints--if dado stacks can't be used, what is the best way to do this on this CS70?
see image here:
http://www.yourdictionary.com/lap-joint

Is the miter gauge rail thing ok to use for the time being or do I really need a full guide rail?

 

[AlexThePalex]

Of all these saw blade manufacturers listed above, which of them is known to make the very best blades?

Leitz is known for very good blades. Festool blades are made by Leitz. By I think it's not 1 manufacturer who makes the best blades that always cut the best. What is very important is that your blade is sharp and that you keep it sharp and cleaned.

Can you use dado stacks on the CS70? I see the opening for the blade is about 1cm thick. is there any way to change this or buy a different table top to accommodate dado stacks that are up to 1.5" thick?

No dados on the CS70. Dados stacks are not legal in Europe.

I'm also looking to buy two clamps--have you used the "lever clamp FS-HZ 160"? Is it sturdy?

I have that clamp, it is a very nice clamp and very sturdy indeed. Festool clamps are made by Bessey, a top manufacturer for clamps. The CS70 has a slot in the top where you can fit these clamps.

Also, very important, I need to cut full lap joints--if dado stacks can't be used, what is the best way to do this on this CS70?

The oldfashioned way, with a normal blade, one pass at a time and then shift the piece sideways. The CS70 is a pull saw, meaning you can slide the saw carriage towards you by pulling a lever. This is a very safe way to make cuts and can come in handy for lap joints.

Is the miter gauge rail thing ok to use for the time being or do I really need a full guide rail?

I mostly use the miter gauge for all my cuts. You can connect it on all 4 sides so it has quite some possibilities. I only use the full rail when I use the side extension, so for bigger pieces.

 

[MichaelW2014]

awesome. thanks alex!