CANCELLED - Festool Carvex Jigsaw 2011 Version

[peter halle]

Rick, don't feel like there's any pressure on you to find out.  I'm sure you used a big favor in getting that fancy shmancy new toy delivered to your house recently.  [wink]

I have a really good speculation of what happened.  Hear me out!

It's Bethany's fault.  She made all those goodies for the gang in Lebanon and they're too busy enjoying stuffing their faces to bother putting together any new packages and shipping anything out.  Once the chocolate face gang runs out (that's why they're not sure for a time-line), they'll resume the Carvex packaging and distribution.

Peter, I think the right thing to do would be to balance the equation by having Bethany make the rest of us large goody baskets and this way our minds will no longer be on the Carvex till we're finished and by that time it'll all be ready.

OK?  [smile]

Ken,

Nice try.  I'll ask.  By telephone.  Long distance.

For those who are trying to put together pieces of Ken's post, Bethany is my wife.  She likes to bake and make chocolate truffles.  The kicker is that she is allergic to chocolate so can never taste what she makes.  She also doesn't eat sweets - and i rarely do.  We might eat dessert twice a year.  So she sends things away not knowing if they are even edible.

A while ago a little bird from the Festool family inquired if any truffles were to be found.  Amazingly a batch appeared.  They were sent to Indy in a Fogtainer that was purchased with funds entrusted to me by attendees from several classes who wanted to do something special for Minnie.  Minnie is a sharing person, so hence the distribution of chocolate in Lebanon.

Getting back to this thread and all the comments, I remember the Kapex introduction and the problem that appeared afterward only in North America.  Festool waited to make an announcement until after they determined the cause and had a fix in hand.  The amount of criticism here is certainly searchable.  In this case, they have decided to approach the situation differently.  They are not comfortable with something so they are not going to distribute until they are comfortable.  Rick is correct - we are lucky here.  It is not all about the bottom line.  If and when they decide to make a statement, they will.

Peter

 

[fritter63]

What I find really odd, is that Festool has not told us why it is delayed.  

OK, the truth.

It turns out the Carvex blade motion is so precise, that when used in North America, it will actually cut through the space-time continuum,
exposing sub-space. And that would be bad.

Very bad.

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I'm kind of mystified by the wild speculation going on in this thread. I have no foreknowledge of the situation, nor do I intend on even asking about it. What is so puzzling is that one person will present a "guess" and then after a few postings, this "guess" suddenly becomes "fact". No where in the original announcement is there even the slightest hint of there being a legal liability issue, yet that is the de facto conclusion being drawn. I suppose that is because we are not accustomed to companies behaving in that manner, so there can be no other reason for a delay in release except by risk of liability. That answer would be logical with most U.S. companies, but neglects to take into account the philosophy behind the management of Festool-USA. In the U.S., we are blessed with a division of Festool that is unlike any other division of the company.

As for this speculation about the LED strobe being at issue, this would hardly be a cause for delay of product release. Simply shutting down the strobe effect would be quite simple. and in all likelihood could be implemented with a firmware change of the EC-Tec controller, while still utilizing existing hardware. As for the further speculation of a stroboscopic effect inducing seizures, this too doesn't stand to logic. In order for a stroboscopic effect to result in a seizure, it must occur at a frequency within visual perception of the human mind. This means it must occur significantly BELOW 10 hertz. However, the speed range of the tool is 500 sps to 3800 sps, which is far above the stroboscopic rate necessary to induce seizure.

Frankly, I don't know the reason for the delay, nor am I willing to use up one of my "favors" to find out. However, this wild speculation is getting to be a little silly at this point. I do know Festool-USA well enough that my speculation would not fall outside of the bounds stated within the published announcement at the beginning of this thread.

Rick, I'm going to throw the flag on this one.  In your message you express dissatisfaction that people make a "guess" and then that guess is presented as fact.  You are doing the same thing in your own message.  You state with what appears to be conviction the flash rate must be significantly below 10 Hz to trigger photo-sensitive seizures.  You state what the range is and what is necessary to induce a seizure.

The problem is, you have it wrong.  The recommendation is keep the flash rate under 5Hz to prevent seizures.  I'm not going to spend time searching for and quoting multiple human engineering guideline sources, but I will provide this one.  It should be credible enough:

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/about/photosensitivity/

Also, "visual perception of the human mind"?  Your eyes perceive visual stimuli.  Your mind decodes and interprets what it sees.
If you want to talk about human information processing, use the terms "perception" and "cognition".  At least you'll be more successful at fooling a greater portion of the readers.

 

[Frank Pellow]

---
For those who are trying to put together pieces of Ken's post, Bethany is my wife.  She likes to bake and make chocolate truffles.  
...

Peter, I had one of Bethany's truffles when I was in Lebanon last week.  It was peppermint flavoured chocolate and it was great!  [thumbs up]

Please thank her for me.

 

[peter halle]

---
For those who are trying to put together pieces of Ken's post, Bethany is my wife.  She likes to bake and make chocolate truffles.  
...

Peter, I had one of Bethany's truffles when I was in Lebanon last week.  It was peppermint flavoured chocolate and it was great!  [thumbs up]

Please thank her for me.

She is smiling.  That was an original recipe - untested by anyone before.  Not even MacGyver! 

Peter

 

[Steve R]

Okay ... most likely I get blasted.  [blink]

I want a Carvex, I have had money down on it for 5 months (I purchased the 300 in Dec. and found issues for improvement within hours of my first use...I posted my concerns here and found out the Carvex 400 was due out in 2011) I returned the 300 under Festools 30 Day policy (Thank You) along with a few accessories. The dealer was going to give me back my money.  I told him, just put down on the new Carvex and its toys in the accessory filled systainer. I have no problem waiting.  Am I happy about waiting....well NO – I wanted it months ago…but YES – I want the best product I can get. So if it is 2012… before I get it that is fine.

Of all the tools I own Festool is at the top and I'm only going to buy more Festool tools because they are the best.

It is irrelevant to me why it is delayed. I have waited 5+ months and will wait another 5 months if that is was it takes.  I can use the DeWalt and hate it every time I use it… and that will only make me like the Carvex that much more when I get it.

It does me no good to speculate on what the reason is.

I’m spending my time creating and building things for my clients.

I’m not saying you should not vent…. just wonder at the end of the day…things are better how?

Cheers,
Steve

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Rick, I'm going to throw the flag on this one.  In your message you express dissatisfaction that people make a "guess" and then that guess is presented as fact.  You are doing the same thing in your own message.  You state with what appears to be conviction the flash rate must be significantly below 10 Hz to trigger photo-sensitive seizures.  You state what the range is and what is necessary to induce a seizure.

The problem is, you have it wrong.  The recommendation is keep the flash rate under 5Hz to prevent seizures.  I'm not going to spend time searching for and quoting multiple human engineering guideline sources, but I will provide this one.  It should be credible enough:

http://www.epilepsyfoundation.org/about/photosensitivity/

Also, "visual perception of the human mind"?  Your eyes perceive visual stimuli.  Your mind decodes and interprets what it sees.
If you want to talk about human information processing, use the terms "perception" and "cognition".  At least you'll be more successful at fooling a greater portion of the readers.

Cody, I won't belabor the information, but 5 Hz is below 10 Hz, which is more than 2 magnitudes below the operating frequency of the tool. What I presented is not contradictory. You are attempting to make a Strawman argument, and I will not entertain such a debate. That's the reason why this thread has gotten so far out of hand. If you wish to debate a strawman argument, then send me a PM and I will explain the information to you.

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Did I stumble into a meeting of the piss and moan club here?

This little guy right here says it all:  [dead horse] [dead horse] [dead horse]

 

[Kodi Crescent]

I'm going to walk away from this one.  You setup the 10Hz straw man argument, I didn't.  I never quoted that frequency.  I won't continue a debate with someone disingenuous who resorts to underhanded tactics such as blatantly misspelling my name and talking down to me while continuing to profess expertise in something you have no expertise in.

 

[vwdave]

My turn to chime in.  I am upset that the carvex is not coming.  I got to see it and play with it at JLC and thought it was amazing and perfect.  All the things I hate about the trion were fixed.  I hope everything get resolved and we will see it soon and I'm glad it wasn't released if there was an issue found by festool.

Dave

 

[Brice Burrell]

Can someone help me here, what is the purpose of the strobe? I saw it in the videos and was confused by the whole thing (don't worry, not a seizure, I confuse easily!). I simply do not understand what it provides....

The idea is to make it easier to follow the cut line.  Normally the jigsaw blades looks like a blur as you cut, with the strobe the blade appears stationary giving you the illusion of a fixed, clear reference to follow the line.  In theory anyhow.

 

[jimbo51]

Regarding the seizure induction, Rick appears to have it backwards. The flash rate must be very low to avoid induction. A very high rate could cause the problem.

New Game.  In line with the wording in the announcement, North American jigsaw users try to list all the specific tasks which they think are not done very much in the rest of the world. Then everyone else can comment on whether that is the case or not.

For example, in NA we will overtax the saw by cutting 6 x 6 timbers all day long.  Or we will use it to cut cement board too much and the dust will kill the motor.  Or ...

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Let's face it, here in NA we hold our tools to a higher standard than the rest of the world.  That's why we buy German tools........

 

[Kodi Crescent]

Or we will use it in the Arizona desert in a windstorm.

This new game will be much more fun.

 

[zapdafish]

My guess is China's stranglehold on rare earth metals used in the batteries for powering our calculators trying to convert fractions to the metric system. They are trying to incorporate a built in slide rule and updating the instruction manuals to pdf  [big grin]

 

[fshanno]

Regarding the seizure induction, Rick appears to have it backwards. The flash rate must be very low to avoid induction. A very high rate could cause the problem.

New Game.  In line with the wording in the announcement, North American jigsaw users try to list all the specific tasks which they think are not done very much in the rest of the world. Then everyone else can comment on whether that is the case or not.

For example, in NA we will overtax the saw by cutting 6 x 6 timbers all day long.  Or we will use it to cut cement board too much and the dust will kill the motor.  Or ...

...... or we will use it to vibrate the edges of concrete countertop forms (without a blade in of course).  

But if you really want a crazy expensive exotic German jigsaw then waiting for the Carvex is an exercise in futility.  Check out the Mafell P1 cc for a cool $632.  If you act quickly there is a demo unit for sale at the Mafell store for an amazingly low $548!

 

[NuggyBuggy]

In order for a stroboscopic effect to result in a seizure, it must occur at a frequency within visual perception of the human mind. This means it must occur significantly BELOW 10 hertz.

Cody, I won't belabor the information, but 5 Hz is below 10 Hz, which is more than 2 magnitudes below the operating frequency of the tool. What I presented is not contradictory.

Who knows what the actual stroboscopic frequency is ? For a given blade frequency, it only needs to flash at any one of certain, perhaps much lower frequencies to achieve the desired effect.  I doubt it is strobing at the blade's frequency if it doesn't need to.

 

[GPowers]

Let's face it, here in NA we hold our tools to a higher standard than the rest of the world.  That's why we buy German tools........

It is ashame that Americans make very few tool anymore.

 

[builderbob]

Let's face it, here in NA we hold our tools to a higher standard than the rest of the world.  That's why we buy German tools........

It is ashame that Americans make very few tool anymore.

Well, if they're not made in the USA, I'd rather have them come from Germany...better than China!

 

[Ken Nagrod]

WAIT SETH, just one more.  I beg of you!

I alluded to this in another thread.  Really, this is my last and final guess.  The strobe effect causes us Americans to dance and shake while using the pre-release Carvex models, so in an effort to satisfy us and one-up all other manufacturers, Festool has decided to incorporate an ipod connection to the Carvex for a more enjoyable woodworking experience.

This may become a new design wave with the rest of their tool line instead of just offering a systainer style radio.

Good thinking, Festool!  Now I'll be able to listen to Tom Jones through the back of the Carvex. [blink]