Carpenter Unions ***Please keep politics out***

[dinkjs]

I really really really really want to keep this non-political please.....

But those of you who are presently or was in a Carpenters Union is it worth it to you or no?  I think I am going to get into some type of apprenticeship when my family and I move here soon back to Indiana and I am contemplating getting with the local union.

I would really like your points of view on boths side of the table please

KEEP YOUR POLITICS OUT OF THIS CONVERSATION!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Old School Carpenter]

Unions........, HUH [scratch chin]
I have been in construction for over 20 years, and only once did I contemplate going over to the union side. That was early on in my career, and I'm so glad I didn't. I love my job and know that its only by hard work and being blessed that got me where I am today.

Sooo... I would say if you like to succeed or fail on your own merits and love to work hard and see those rewards for you and yours, non-union.

If you like job security, not having to work all sorts of hours that you could be fishing, and benefits are a big deal to you right now, then union.

[2cents]

Mike

 

[tjbier]

Well said Mike.
In my experiences I wouldn want to work along with union folk again, the word "entitled" comes to mind
I do wish I had thier pay an pension but they can keep the rest.
I know everyone's experiences are different.

 

[Brice Burrell]

I don't have anything helpful to add but I'm curious to know how the unions are set up in other areas around the country.  Here in Pittsburgh the unions pretty much own commercial construction, probably 90% to 10% non-union.  In residential it's the opposite.  The wages plus benefits for a carpenter in the union commercial construction are significantly higher than those of non-union and residential union.  There are very few non-union guys getting benefits.  I agree with Mike about how rewarding being self employed can be.  However, if you just want to put in your eight hours and go home everyday then you'd be crazy to go non-union here in Pittsburgh, assuming you have the choice.          

 

[Old School Carpenter]

 The wages plus benefits for a carpenter in the union commercial construction are significantly higher than those of non-union and residential union.            

I think this is sort of a self made problem for a lot of self employed and I was no exception for some years.

It wasn't until I had a friend tell me to "charge what I needed to, because even if I cut the price it would still be too much".  He was right then and he's right now. 

Contractors of many kinds are out there and if you are bidding against others on price alone, you will never grow a business, or earn an extra dime, and you will be miserable doing it.

At one point I discovered I could work for 1/2 the clients and get paid twice as much or I could work for twice the clients and earn 1/2 as much. I prefer the former and I always enjoy my work.

Mike

 

[Rick Christopherson]

Back in my earlier days, I was in a couple different unions for several different positions. I soon came to realize that those unions tended to hurt self-achieving employees instead of helping them. In an effort to equalize everyone, they tend to penalize those that should otherwise excel. In every union I was in, I saw that advancement was awarded (by contract) solely on the basis of tenure and not on the basis of achievement. As a result, they tended to neutralize the desire for achievement by the individual.

A couple of these companies even had various positions where union membership was required and not required. The difference between pay and benefits was negligible between them.

Speaking solely from personal experience, I've been hurt by unions more than I've been helped by them. As a result, I would never voluntarily join one for any position where I was given a choice.

There was one company where I had worked my way into a very nice position. I was good at what I did and had very positive comments from the other departments I served. Then one day, another person changed from the night shift to my shift, and he said, "I want that position!" Well, because he had a mere 2 weeks seniority over me, it was automatically given to him under union contract. Management knew I was better at the job, but the contract prevailed, and I was forced to give up my position for a mere 2 week seniority.

 

[Brice Burrell]

 The wages plus benefits for a carpenter in the union commercial construction are significantly higher than those of non-union and residential union.            

I think this is sort of a self made problem for a lot of self employed and I was no exception for some years.

It wasn't until I had a friend tell me to "charge what I needed to, because even if I cut the price it would still be too much".   He was right then and he's right now.  

Contractors of many kinds are out there and if you are bidding against others on price alone, you will never grow a business, or earn an extra dime, and you will be miserable doing it.

At one point I discovered I could work for 1/2 the clients and get paid twice as much or I could work for twice the clients and earn 1/2 as much. I prefer the former and I always enjoy my work.

Mike

Mike, I agree.  I have no interest in volume of business.  Like you I'm all about quality.  In my post post above I was referring to an employee, not a business owner.  Not everyone has what it takes to run a business.  For those guys you can't make anything near what the average guy in the union is making.

 

[Paul G]

Carpenter Unions ***Please keep politics out***


The irony of this thread title is that you'll never get politics out of the union, it's a highly politicized environment. I'll never forget the day I got dragged over the coals for doing too good of a job because it was making everyone else look bad, it was then I knew the union workplace was not for me. I seek excellence not mediocrity, advancement through skill and merit not connections and seniority. I want to negotiate directly with my employer, don't need to pay anyone monthly dues to do that for me. I aim much higher in life than any union could ever offer.

 

[Kev]

My first job where I worked for a fully fledged employer was at a department store in Sydney. I was working Saturday mornings as I was still at school (15 years old). My take home pay was $4.98, after a mandatory deduction of $1.10 union feeds - I had no choice, I was told union membership was compulsory.

The second Saturday I worked a man came through and said "we're all out - leave the building". I was completely bewildered, there where shoppers in the store and the department manager, who was a really nice lady, looked completely shocked.

I asked what was happening and was told it was a "flash strike". I asked "why" and nobody could tell me anything other than if I did strike I wouldn't get paid.

I kept working - there were shoppers and they needed to be served, nothing was their fault. It was the right thing to do.

I got called a SCAB by several really nasty people. The strike achieved nothing other than setting me against the idea of unions for life - probably also annoying and inconveniencing a number of shopping and damaging department store profits.

I don't consider myself a pawn to be used and if I'm paying a fee for a service, I expect a service - not loss of income and abuse.

It's coming up to nearly 40 years ago that this happened - but it's still quite fresh.

The concept of unions created to protect the right of the workers is a good concept, but as with so many things - people get into a significant positions of power and it all goes pear shaped.

These days we have a government to "protect" the people and in the free world we get to vote for the one we want. I see unions as being obsolete in their current form and should be morphed into skills improvement, qualification and job creation organisations.

 

[Old School Carpenter]

.  In my post post above I was referring to an employee, not a business owner.  Not everyone has what it takes to run a business.  For those guys you can't make anything near what the average guy in the union is making.

I understood you Brice and couldn't agree more, I believe it is up to we who have been in the trades longer/run successful businesses to teach those who want to learn, what it takes to succeed.

There are some who can't or don't want to learn/are just looking for 40 hrs and a paycheck. I say I don't want that guy anywhere near my sites. He will do more harm than good to morale, reputation, contentment of other workers, etc.

  I believe the unions also do the trades a disservice when they hire this type of person and offer him more than an independent could. It makes the talent pool that much harder to choose from, and makes mediocre workers out of those who could be masters.

Mike

 

[rrmccabe]

I'll never forget the day I got dragged over the coals for doing too good of a job because it was making everyone else look bad,

That has been my experience too.  Its all about lowering the bar instead of raising it and dragging the good down to the lowest level.

That is unions in general and nothing against the trade they teach because I really haven't been that part to comment.

I think at one time around here it was a great way to get a decent technical education.  But that might have been a couple decades ago.

 

[Vindingo]

One thing I have benefited from growing up in the trades and not being in the union is that I can frame houses, build cabinets, weld, do minor electrical work, drywall, concrete countertops... etc etc

I know a few guys in unions.  One can hang doors all day long to his hearts content, the other can build concrete forms for foundations or hold a "Slow" sign on the side of the road...

It depends on what kind of person you are.  As others have mentioned, it's not a "go getter" friendly environment.  There is also no guarantee that joining a union = work.  Lots of those guys are sitting in halls waiting to be called. 

 

[GhostFist]

I'll tell you a little bit about my experiences learning carpentry professionally and my experience with unions. I pretty much jumped into this trade having never picked up a hammer or a tape measure. My first job was a pay reduction of about $35 grand annually. I was previously a supervisor in a shipping and receiving company similar to FedEx. I was still fairly young, and decided to learn a trade or end up working in warehouses for the rest of my life making roughly the same forever doing a job I absolutely hated. I had worked my way up from a unionized employee in the warehouse to non union management. The union in that place did very little to protect warehouse workers, BUT did just enough to prevent the higher ups from running completely lawless and abusive on their warehouse staff and ensured things like health and safety were a priority. Without that, I'm confident upper management would be happy to murder and rape it's low wage staff and just hire more desperate people to sweep up their corpses and take over the deceased's former jobs for less money. I hated that place and that part of the story is over.

Anyway I had to find a way to learn a trade and I took a labour job on a renovation of a high income property. I shoveled sweated dug trenches bashed my fingers with framing hammers and lived pay check to pay check, barely, until that job was done and those that ran it decided to take three months off to wind down from the job. Not an option when you're learning so off to find another gig. jumped around with several contractors for roughly the same minimum amount of money for years in renovations trying to force people to show me something new, which they were often very reluctant to do. I read as much as I could, on any kind of carpentry, tried my damndest to get involved in what projects seemed a new challenge but I would say my progress in LEARNING the trade was very slow using this method. Good mentors at this time.....none. The local construction union apprenticeship was an option to me but the people I was working with always put down the idea.

Trying to shorten this already too long story, if I had taken an apprenticeship through the union, I would have been provided with what I most wanted. An education in the field and the oppourtunity to get paid while studying. Would I have stayed in that union post apprenticeship? probably not nor do I have the desire to work in that union now.

I feel education and formal apprenticeship is important to developing as a carpenter, it's not the only means to success, but I think it would help you focus on area's you want to specialize in and hopefully give you the knowledge to start your own business in the field  

In summation, I had a very difficult time learning my skillset without a formal education at the beginning of my journey into carpentry. I'm very successful now despite not having that beginning apprenticeship (I later put myself through trade certifications and education in the field of furniture and cabinet making) but it was a difficult journey that might have been easier had I jumped right into apprenticeship.

Briefly on unions in general, they've fought for wage increases for employees, workers rights and health and safety. Their management has also been corrupted by mafias and criminal embezzlement of all sorts. They can provide you with traning in the field but can keep you from advancing based on seniority. Saying that seniority can also provide you with job security and a pension as your body deteriorates in this physically demanding line of work.

A lot for you to consider here.

 

[skids]

Unions have done wonders for the American auto industry.  [tongue]

 

[Kev]

I'll tell you a little bit about my experiences learning carpentry professionally and my experience with unions. I pretty much jumped into this trade having never picked up a hammer or a tape measure. My first job was a pay reduction of about $35 grand annually. I was previously a supervisor in a shipping and receiving company similar to FedEx. I was still fairly young, and decided to learn a trade or end up working in warehouses for the rest of my life making roughly the same forever doing a job I absolutely hated. I had worked my way up from a unionized employee in the warehouse to non union management. The union in that place did very little to protect warehouse workers, BUT did just enough to prevent the higher ups from running completely lawless and abusive on their warehouse staff and ensured things like health and safety were a priority. Without that, I'm confident upper management would be happy to murder and rape it's low wage staff and just hire more desperate people to sweep up their corpses and take over the deceased's former jobs for less money. I hated that place and that part of the story is over.

Anyway I had to find a way to learn a trade and I took a labour job on a renovation of a high income property. I shoveled sweated dug trenches bashed my fingers with framing hammers and lived pay check to pay check, barely, until that job was done and those that ran it decided to take three months off to wind down from the job. Not an option when you're learning so off to find another gig. jumped around with several contractors for roughly the same minimum amount of money for years in renovations trying to force people to show me something new, which they were often very reluctant to do. I read as much as I could, on any kind of carpentry, tried my damndest to get involved in what projects seemed a new challenge but I would say my progress in LEARNING the trade was very slow using this method. Good mentors at this time.....none. The local construction union apprenticeship was an option to me but the people I was working with always put down the idea.

Trying to shorten this already too long story, if I had taken an apprenticeship through the union, I would have been provided with what I most wanted. An education in the field and the oppourtunity to get paid while studying. Would I have stayed in that union post apprenticeship? probably not nor do I have the desire to work in that union now.

I feel education and formal apprenticeship is important to developing as a carpenter, it's not the only means to success, but I think it would help you focus on area's you want to specialize in and hopefully give you the knowledge to start your own business in the field  

In summation, I had a very difficult time learning my skillset without a formal education at the beginning of my journey into carpentry. I'm very successful now despite not having that beginning apprenticeship (I later put myself through trade certifications and education in the field of furniture and cabinet making) but it was a difficult journey that might have been easier had I jumped right into apprenticeship.

Briefly on unions in general, they've fought for wage increases for employees, workers rights and health and safety. Their management has also been corrupted by mafias and criminal embezzlement of all sorts. They can provide you with traning in the field but can keep you from advancing based on seniority. Saying that seniority can also provide you with job security and a pension as your body deteriorates in this physically demanding line of work.

A lot for you to consider here.

That was an interesting read.

I remember being at school and doing "real woodwork" and "real metalwork", with the option of progressing through similar electives in senior schools years. Some of the kids that stuck with it were turning out quite impressive stuff by the age 17~18. You don't see that in the current senior school curriculum now.

More tradesman skills development are required - worldwide I believe.

A lot of the apprentice programs in Australia are used for cheap labour and the apprentices rarely get the on the job training they deserve.

Unions don't address these issues to my understanding.

 

[JoggleStick]

I'm going to take a slightly different tack....

To me our work life is an education and frankly we never stop learning, do we?
Especially in these times, new tools, new materials, forums like this one sharing knowledge, etc, etc, etc...

To me our most important "thing" is knowledge.... We never and should never stop learning our whole lives long...

Taking a bird's eye view... I see the 'whole' system as being one to mould you into mediocrity- average predictable performance- and much that has been written here, truly confirms these thoughts...

Of course there are exceptions- and that's my point- they are exceptions, or exceptional, or both...

Entrepreneurs spend their lives breaking through these barriers and expectations, but this is also a skill and should not be underestimated. I will say, for the entrepreneur, Marketing and the skill of 'how to get a client', own, build and run a business, these are all skills, that need to be learnt. Whether you study as a tradesman, chiropractor, engineer, lawyer, whatever...
Well, the system is very good at teaching you how to do what it is you want to do...
But, that's it, you will be lucky if you get one minutes training on how to run a business, get a client, what to charge, how to charge, etc, etc.
I don't care whether it's Trade Apprenticeship, University, College, whatever... You will be taught to confirm- and that's not all bad i.e., eg; health and safety, etc...

However;

In the first instance, you need mentors- if you are going to learn something; you should try your best to learn from the very best in that field... And do the same in each and every field you want to succeed in. That's the very best advice I can give in this brief ditty...
In whatever field you want to learn in- seek and source the very best in that field and do your very best to learn from them... Just ask! Don't ever assume the other person will say,  "No"... It might be hands on, class work, even books, library's, etc, etc. In this day and age you have the most fantastic opportunities, that have never been available at any point in man's history...
Wasn't it Colonel Sanders who originally went to over 1,000 different financial institutions and presented his Chicken Shop Idea before he found one who said, "Yes"... That right there is the stuff of legends... A great Mentor for perseverance too.
Remember, if you are actively looking with an open mind, the opportunity of a lifetime comes along on average, about once a month....

Like no other time in man's history- the whole world is literally in the palm of your hand...
Be strong, grasp it and run with it...
Write your own destiny, it can be whatever you want it to be, if you would only truly believe that and grasp the opportunity...
Best wishes and cheers to a great life!

Ps.... Who cares what the unions are doing or not doing....

 

[farms100]

the real  answer is unions are good and bad. It really depends on how the company interacts with the unions

I've never been in a union but many of my good friends are have been in them. Both cases the company/union relationships were horribley bad.  I thought about  joining one,  but after working a few jobs with them i realized iit was not for me.

like someone posted earlier unions are extremely political, inside the union itself. As well as what outside agenda they support. they are perfectly willing to ignore the membership desires and support the leaderships political views. Also voting tend to be very crooked, which the NLRB has been ignoring the last 5+ years.

the code among union workers has really deteriorated, people, including leadership are making side deals with the company and playing games that 20 years ago would have had the person kicked out of the union or worse.

25 years ago i thought about joining the IBEW but the rules for electricians apprentices and licensing were extremely harsh (an extra year over and above the stat requirements). the vast majority of work in this are is non union. the economy was in the crapper but I knew a kid that started a union apprenticeship and only  had about 3 months of paid for the first 2 years.  My work was spotty then as well

Finding work for union mostly goes by seniority, but having freinds inside the hall will get you more work.

Will they take any non union work into your apprenticeship? Will they train you? if so how good is the training?

union dues/strike fund etc

Ive worked for companies that fired me for being in the ER and missing a day of work.

there are a lot of really bad carpenters/business people out there. Finding the right person to learn form and work for can be difficult.

benefits benefits benefits

most important question to ask is what is your long term goal as a carpenter? do you want to start your own business etc etc

 

[Kev]

Like no other time in man's history- the whole world is literally in the palm of your hand...
Be strong, grasp it and run with it...
Write your own destiny, it can be whatever you want it to be, if you would only truly believe that and grasp the opportunity...
Best wishes and cheers to a great life!

Ps.... Who cares what the unions are doing or not doing....

That's gotta score five meat pies  [big grin]

 

[Eli]

I can't speak on carpenter unions, I've not gone there, but they make mad bank in AU right now. It will be the death of their jobs, I think they're driving construction costs through the roof. But, because the rates are so good for union guys, the majority of skilled trades would rather do big jobs. This means there aren't many guys around who will do smaller jobs. There aren't many guys around who will do small *expensive* jobs. Those jobs wouldn't pay good rates if everyone wasn't off milking the big cow in the city.
I used to be in a film union in LA. I still do some film work. The most recent studio film to come to Australia used guess what rates when they came to negotiate? That's right, union film rates from the states.
My point is, even if the union isn't right for your situation, they do have a place (and a useful life span it seems). Before they end up with ten too many guys in each spot and business agents that make 100k and play golf all year, they do protect the worker. Over time, they tend to overdo it and become a liability. Yes, they've advanced pay and health conditions, but over a twenty or thirty year lifespan, they become top heavy and price themselves out of the market.
My .02

 

[Sparktrician]

I have been a member of two (non-carpenter) unions in my career, and neither time was voluntary as I lived in states that didn't have right-to-work laws.  Never again!!!  Unions hold everybody back to the level of the lowest common denominator.  In one situation, I came out of the military with sufficient skills to get a job in what was called "top craft", only to be derided by much older individuals in top craft that didn't like the fact that I'd done a far more rigorous "apprenticeship" in the military and was making the same as they were, and was far younger.  My response was to remind them that it was THEIR union rules that held them back.  After three years I was at top pay in top craft and had nowhere to go, so I left that company and that union.  I sometimes moonlighted for a small enterprise wiring data centers after hours because the local union crews were taking their sweet time and bleeding the contractor dry.  In one case, I got more done in a ten hour shift overnight than a union crew of three got done in three days, and my work was error-free and certified, unlike the work that had been done by union crews.  My paycheck after those jobs more than made up for the time I spent doing them.