Carvex 420 first impressions

[Deansocial]

I'm mostly a passive user of this forum. I find it a valuable source of information. At the same time I am very aware that opinions are colored by the pro Festool vibe here!

Being dutch i can read the text on the website of the dealer that is supporting the discussed video, and the text in his online ads. I'd like to ad my perspective.

The dealer supporting this test video is marketing the Mafell brand here in the Netherlands in an aggressive way, targeted primarily at professional Festool users. All their online video tests compare Festool with Maffel, and they offer to by your old Festool tools. It is their right to market hard and jump on the Carvex ps400 history (as they clearly did, and do again with the ps420). But to my taste they are sometimes crossing, a line. It's hard to pin point where things go wrong, but the text 'wij staan voor eerlijk advies over gereedschap' ('we're about honoust advice about tools') on the front page of their website is perhaps a nice example. If you're entire marketing strategy is aimed at comparisons with Festool than I find this is a questionable suggestion. Why not focus on the virtues of the brand your trying to sell? They don't come across as the type of professional partner that suits me, and I wonder if this is the way to market a top brand like Maffel.

In this case to me personally the testers in the video (listening to what they say) appear to be almost cheering about the bended blades and the sparks. They don't come across as really serious or interested in objectivity. These type of video's are often disputable because of the involvement of marketing departments of the brands or individual dealers. To me this one, given the context fits into the category useless.

Plenty on this forum will defend a festool tool even if its utter crap, only a few members will voice a true opinion regardless on who makes it

 

[festooldude]

I just love this topic!  [big grin]

 

[woodguy7]

JJS, welcome to the FOG.  INTERESTING FIRST POST  [big grin]

 

[JJS]

I agree with both Deansocial and RvB.

Lets see how this thing evolves . . . .

 

[Alan m]

welcome jjs.

i dont know anything about that company because of the language . thanks for translating

 

[festooldude]

I have got to agree with dean also! But man, this topic is on fire!! Haha

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Shane,

I'll just add that, yes you and Festool have done an admirable job of allowing more than only positive tool experiences posted, especially concerning the jig saws.  I only care to see the truth posted, from both sides, even if it may have some brand loyalty bias.  If the Carvex is good, great, let's see more about it and if these guys from the Netherlands are here for any number of negative reasons, let's expose and get rid of them.  If not, I want to hear about tool problems just as much as praises.  Maybe the Carvex wasn't meant to be, maybe it was?  I don't know yet.

 

[Stone Message]

It was interesting to note that Festool were busier than Mafell at W12. These two pictures were taken within a few minutes of each other. I went past both stands several times and Festool always had the edge on numbers. The Mafell stand was well laid out and their equipment display was pretty good but they did not quite draw the crowds. I saw the PS420 and watched it being demonstrated. It cuts through 100mm section with ease (probably) just like the Mafell equivalent. I am pretty certain that Mafell are not prepared to condone the efforts of the Dutch dealership in trying to discredit Festool in a test that has been described, here, as rigged. Perhaps Mafell will have the guts to do something about this.

Peter

 

[Deansocial]

Alot of the numbers around the festool stand was due to the constant demo on there i think peter. I did notice the mafell stand was more aimed at the lagre timber frame type work mainly

 

[Stone Message]

Alot of the numbers around the festool stand was due to the constant demo on there i think peter. I did notice the mafell stand was more aimed at the lagre timber frame type work mainly

You are partly right - they did have their track saws, jigsaws and some other small stuff. Their big stuff was more akin to the Protool range which TTS did not put alongside the Festool kit.

I am expecting to review the PS420 for my magazine very soon (like when someone remembers to send it to me) and so I was able to get a quick lesson on the saw and a demo. I asked for an extra long blade so that I can demonstrate, on video, the machine cutting really thick stock. I will do my best to address every shortfall that I have read about the PS400. If, after I have done the video, someone wants me to do further tests then I am open to sensible suggestions (I cannot be expected to buy exotic timbers, Corian and so on and I am not going to wear an orange T shirt).

I am sorry that we did not meet at the show. I met JJB and his chums - a great bunch.

Peter

 

[Administrator_JSVN]

From my perspective this isn't about Festool vs Mafell. I'm sure Mafell tools are good. I hope that this dealer isn't representative of the tactics and principles of Mafell, and believe its not from what I know of them.

This is about the ethics (or lack of) of the dealer in question, and whether the test shown and testers are extremely biased. Whether the tests were done in a way that may have intentionally, or possibly unintentionally, influenced the results.

We've seen and heard multiple accounts of the 420 making this cut without issues. Peter witnessed it most recently in person at W12. So, why does this dealer and his testers seem to have the unique ability to melt and bend blades?

Maybe it's telekinesis.  [blink] maybe a spoon test is in order.

 

[Deansocial]

Reguarding the 420 at w12 it cut a super wiggly line in 40mm tops no probs at all, slight defection but not much.

 

[mastercabman]

This topic has been really fun to read so far!
I just want to give my input on this.
I have been using a jigsaw for a long,long time.I use it a lot.But i never,ever bent a blade BACKWARD like that on the video.
My first jig was a bosch model 4200(with the screw driver to change the blade).The best blade to use for what i do was the T101B.
I used to get the package of 100 blades.Again,never bent backward,it would bend side way or break off at the top .
I have watch that video a few times and i see that the saw does OK for most of the cut until the end.Maybe it's just me,but it looks to me that the base of the saw at the back is raised up a little,meaning that maybe the user is putting excessive pushing force?
I,myself don't really care for this kind of test.To see how fast you can cut a thick piece of wood? At best i cut 1.5" thick material.Sometime maybe 2"
Then again maybe the festool saw is not really up to the competition.But i agree,we need to have others to do a video like it.

 

[Deansocial]

This topic has been really fun to read so far!
I just want to give my input on this.
I have been using a jigsaw for a long,long time.I use it a lot.But i never,ever bent a blade BACKWARD like that on the video.
My first jig was a bosch model 4200(with the screw driver to change the blade).The best blade to use for what i do was the T101B.
I used to get the package of 100 blades.Again,never bent backward,it would bend side way or break off at the top .
I have watch that video a few times and i see that the saw does OK for most of the cut until the end.Maybe it's just me,but it looks to me that the base of the saw at the back is raised up a little,meaning that maybe the user is putting excessive pushing force?
I,myself don't really care for this kind of test.To see how fast you can cut a thick piece of wood? At best i cut 1.5" thick material.Sometime maybe 2"
Then again maybe the festool saw is not really up to the competition.But i agree,we need to have others to do a video like it.

Also as i already said earlier in the thread you would use pendulum which they didnt which then would require all the force. What ever happened to letting the saw do the work?

 

[Stone Message]

I hope that someone at the Mafell company has had a look at this thread. I am sure that they would not be proud of what is supposedly being done in their name by a dealer whom, we are told, has been discredited in the past. This is really bad publicity for Mafell.

Peter

 

[Rembo72]

@JJS

They don't come across as really serious or interested in objectivity.

JJS, please explain to me why I drove up to Waddinxveen from Arnhem during my Holiday to be there 08:00 in the morning to get an possible explanation form a Festool trainer on what potentially might be the issue during the first test day?This has cost me more than half a day during my scarce holidays.Only reason is to have an objective test.

In this case to me personally the testers in the video (listening to what they say) appear to be almost cheering about the bended blades and the sparks.

Looking at the above we where not cheering we where utterly amazed on what we saw happening during the 2nd test day as we used longer blades and anticipated that with these blades sawing the block would not be an issue. We where completely stunned especially when it happened again within 10 minutes with a second (brand-new) carvex 420. If you listen carefully that's what you will hear.

A little bit of explanation on the "agressive" marketing campaign where you can trade in your old Festool tool when buying a Mafell one. Festool tools are of very high quality and people that have them do not easily sell them even when there is a better option on the market. This campaign makes it a little bit easier for people to switch to the Mafell machines with getting a decent price back for their old machines. Brand loyalty is high within Festool for obvious reasons and this is a way to make changing to another brand easier. Nothing more , nothing les.

 

[Rembo72]

Also as i already said earlier in the thread you would use pendulum which they didnt which then would require all the force. What ever happened to letting the saw do the work?

@Deansocial pendulum was set at max in the test.

 

[hockey_magnet]

Dear hockey_magnet, to that tone I should call everyone of you from the US liars since Festool does not have a 30 day or any other day return policy in Finland for example.
We only get the 1-year warranty extension (2 years standard) if you register the tool within 30 days of purchase, no tool points, nothing else.

This whole try-before-you-buy thing must be an North-American thing since we just don't see it here. The only no-questions-asked return you get is for mail-order/online-bought goods the consumer protection law guarantees a 14 day return for unused & undamaged products.

If you buy from a brick & mortar store you better be really sure that what you buy is right for you because you ain't getting a refund. And most B&M stores don't let you try anything so you are left to reading the boxes, looking at videos on the net and reading experiences on forums like FOG to get an idea of the relative merits of tools. Festools are mostly delivered to order and very few machines are actually at any stores to even touch, much less try out.

Can we stop the bickering and get some facts on the Carvex 420 performance on the table?

I, for one, need to do really careful pre-evaluation of every Festool that I purchase for the above reasons.

Sorry if I offended but I personally have never made any blanket statement regarding Festool's 30 day trial period. It's too bad you don't have better consumer protection or marketing practices in Finland. I'm actually well aware that Festool does not not offer it in some other countries so I would have thought that a Mafell user might have some knowledge of Mafell's policies before making a blanket statement on a forum, particularly one that is supported by Festool USA - Once again, I did not call Rian a liar, only said what he said was misleading which it most definitely was.

You're not going to stop the bickering because of the way this entire episode was started in the first place. I too want to see the facts on the 420, good or bad (from a reputable source).

 

[JJS]

@JJS

They don't come across as really serious or interested in objectivity.

JJS, please explain to me why I drove up to Waddinxveen from Arnhem during my Holiday to be there 08:00 in the morning to get an possible explanation form a Festool trainer on what potentially might be the issue during the first test day?This has cost me more than half a day during my scarce holidays.Only reason is to have an objective test.

Your intentions might be OK! The objective scientific value of a test is determined by more than that!

In this case to me personally the testers in the video (listening to what they say) appear to be almost cheering about the bended blades and the sparks.

Looking at the above we where not cheering we where utterly amazed on what we saw happening during the 2nd test day as we used longer blades and anticipated that with these blades sawing the block would not be an issue. We where completely stunned especially when it happened again within 10 minutes with a second (brand-new) carvex 420. If you listen carefully that's what you will hear.

I try to judge this type of testvideo on the web also by the attitude of the people conducting them. Again your intentions might be OK, the whole thing just doesn't looks very convincing to me. I think it's just fair that somebody native / local is giving his thoughts. But perhaps I'm wrong and your video reveals a major flaw. As I said: I'm interested to see how this thread evolves.

A little bit of explanation on the "agressive" marketing campaign where you can trade in your old Festool tool when buying a Mafell one. Festool tools are of very high quality and people that have them do not easily sell them even when there is a better option on the market. This campaign makes it a little bit easier for people to switch to the Mafell machines with getting a decent price back for their old machines. Brand loyalty is high within Festool for obvious reasons and this is a way to make changing to another brand easier. Nothing more , nothing les.

Please read more carefully. I was not negative about the trade in option itself!

 

[Coen]

Haha, Sander Schuiten and his name-changing webshop from Zandvoort...

Ok, let set this straight:

-The guy behind GereedschapPro has some personal problem with Festool
-The guy wants revenge
-The guy wants to sell Mafell
-The guy has been seen before seeking the attention of customers shopping for Festool, then bad mouthing Festool and pushing Mafell.

So what do we get: a cabal of him and a few of his buddies do a fake 'test' of three jigsaws; the Mafell, the Trion and the new Carvex.

None of us is blind and all of us can see that the blade they use in the 420 is too short. It doesn't even get 1/10 of an inch through the wood.
I don't know if the 420 keeps it's blade a little bit higher or not; perhaps. But it would still be within spec, since the Trion could cut more than spec.
This however does provide them with an easy way to show the Carvex to be 'bad'; that's why they cherry-picked the length of the blade and the thickness of the wood: half an inch less thick and it wouldn't suit their purpose. And let's be honest about that purpose: attracting traffic from those interested in Festool to show them the so called superiority of the Mafell. And even if he doesn't get to sell them a Mafell he would already be happy if Festool sells less, since that's his personal obsession.

And the word 'obsession' also fits the fervor with which all of a sudden a bunch of these freshly created accounts appear on the FOG to in a magic way corroborate the story while hiding details.

Now the real kicker comes when you can understand the Dutch voices in the video. Starting at around 0:52 they discuss the following:
Man in background: Maybe the blade is too short
Man holding Carvex: Yes
Third person: It’s as if it’s oscillation is different
Man in background: If it’s too high [cut off by sound of Carvex]

And in the time this topic is open they get what they want: higher page-ranking from Google.

Anyone anywhere can simply see this is a bunch of nonsense: go to your nearest Festool dealer and test the machine. If he doesn't have it in his test corner, call up your local branch of Festool, make an appointment with a representative and he will bring a test machine.

Conclusion

This so called 'test' or 'comparison' done by GereedschapPro is not independent, not honest, not well-documented and not neutral. It was done with a goal; to attract traffic and to make people not buy a Festool and preferably buy a Mafell. Conditions were cherry picked to achieve pre-determined goal, details left out. The conversation in the video makes clear that they know why it fails.
These colored-glasses 'comparisons' are a curse for those seeking honest information and should be seen as yet another scar on the reputation of this man-with-a-gripe-against-Festool.

For full disclosure:
-I am an part-time employee of an official Dutch Festool dealer
-Posting here is part of my hobby, not my work
-I receive no compensation from anyone in any form for posting here although setting the record straight gives a lot of satisfaction!
-At my work I've sold both Trion and Carvex machines. With the Trion I use price, proven technology and solid way of blade changing and with the Carvex I use the extra bases, it's lower weight and stroboscope as main selling points.
-I own a Trion PS300 EBQ, purchased 2009; before becoming an employee at the Festool dealer and before the Carvex was released.