Carvex and CMS-PS module first impressions

RC

Member
Joined
Jul 18, 2011
Messages
1,173
Since I acquired a battery operated Carvex last month and today my CMS-PS module arrived I thought I'd take it for a little test drive.

I must say up front that I was not very impressed to say the least  [sad]

First of all the Carvex attaches to the CMS-module with the guiderail base which is plastic and if you tighten the CMS-module holder you will press the centre of the plastic base (zero insert part) above the aluminum table level. This is correctable by backing off a bit on the base holder screws tightness, but a bit 'low quality' from the otherwise solid aluminium CMS-system.

[attachthumb=#]

On a positive note the Carvex detachable base system make the swapping of the tool in and out of the CMS-module a breeze and I can see where JMB is coming from with his repeated requests for a similar attachment for the OF2200 router to the CMS-OF module since it has similarly quick swappable face plates. The attachment of the ADT-PS-400 adapter to the CMS-PS module is the simplest of all CMS-attachments I've seen just one screw and that's it.

[attachthumb=#]

Once I got the connector plate aligned with the CMS-modules surface I tried it without dust extraction. This proved to be disastrous with dust flying all over the place. Then I attempted to attach the CT to the Carvex dust port to find out that you cannot twist the 27mm AS hose enough when attached to the dust port of the Carvex to lower the CMS-PS module into the base comfortably. Maybe a 90-deg hose connector would make it possible to attach the hose above table, but I don't have one to try.

After wiggling the hose into place under the table and giving it another try of sawing it did markedly better in getting rid of the under table dust and to a lesser extent diminish the amount of dust flying at my face above the work piece. You still have to puff and pant to see your cut line since there is no above table suction or blower and since the stroboscopic light is on the underside of the work piece you have to try to find the blades location from the side since its invisible from the front like any jigsaw would be.

[attachthumb=#]

When the battery is in place you can barely fit the hose in between the table and the battery and you have to insert it under the table once the module is locked in place. Another annoyance is that since this is a battery model you cannot use the mains on-off button on the CMS-GE to operate the jigsaw but you have to dip your hand under the table to use the switches on the body of the tool.

[attachthumb=#]

Therefore my first observation is that the battery operated Carvexes are not a good fit for the CMS-PS attachment. This is precisely the reason why I added a mains to Festool battery connector to the wish list and now I would also add to my original wish that the adapter should be made thinner than a regular 15V battery to make more space for the DC hose under here. I'm writing this first part of the review while waiting for the battery to recharge - I got about 15min worth of sawing out of the first run. For the record the battery was not full to start with so we'll see about the runtime after a full recharge.

Another annoyance I found while trying to saw a trivet out of semi-hard wood with a swirl pattern to it was the automatic speed sensing of the Carvex. For some reason you get maximum cutting speed only in automatic mode which takes a bit to react to material contact and resistance and then it kicks the saw to full tilt. This resulted in many ruined round edges on my first practice piece when the sudden speed change sucked the blade an unintended 1-2mm in the wrong direction. Unfortunately the saw doesn't cut very effectively in the next fastest non-variable speed mode (5) unless you add some swing action to it. The wavy line below is the result of the saw not deciding will it stay in full speed mode or not and 'pumping' between speeds at random while I tried to make a circle.

[attachthumb=#]

Also the blade support of the Carvex seems to let the blade twist a bit when trying to cut tight round corners in table mode as can be seen in the rather mangled zero clearance insert that was pristine before I started and now has a large hole around the blade where it has turned when turning the work piece.

[attachthumb=#]

This happened when the blade decided to get caught in the cut and threw the whole piece up and did a bit of a rattle dance on the bottom of it:

[attachthumb=#]

Now that I have a full battery I got to observe another issue with the hose + battery space - you can't insert the battery back in with the hose attached:

[attachthumb=#]

As you can see the end result of this trial was not anything like the one I did free hand with my old Makita for Christmas  [sad]

[attachthumb=#]

[attachthumb=#]

Then I tested another great idea of mine to use it as a bandsaw replacement with the angle guide fence from my CMS-TS module. This turned out to be a disaster too since the blade just began bending out from the fence and cut at an angle outwards. No good. Also the blade will bend outwards from the fence since it has nothing to support it from above to stay square.

[attachthumb=#]

[attachthumb=#]

Other observations include:

- Blade change requires the release of the saw from the module which in practice means that you need to flip the module around to access the quick release latch of the saw. Can't be done conveniently from above. (when zero insert is used)
- The Carvex blade column does not stop at the top position of it's travel at power off always which means that to release the blade you need to push manually the blade up for the release latch to get contact with the blade column's release notch
- While in the CMS module the jigsaw cannot be tilted since the guiderail base does not have any moving parts

So to sum up my first impressions:

As far as I can tell this can be used only for cutting free hand along a of reasonably straight line and not much else. As you saw above resawing wood with it is futile since the blade doesn't have support from its tip to stay square against the pressure of a fence nor can it be used in a good way to do tight curves either. So far this seems my worst Festool purchase up to date.  [doh]

I can see the mains version of a Carvex working in this CMS attachment better since it lacks the bulk of a battery, can be patched thru the CMS-GE's power switch and doesn't run out of juice every half-hour. Probably even better idea would be to just get the package PS300 with the module and keep it permanently attached to it and use your Carvex for free-hand/guide rail work only. Or to be honest probably the best idea is to get a proper bandsaw and scroll saw and forget about this module.

Any ideas on what this setup would shine at are welcome.
 
Reduce the size to 800 x 600 pixels.

I am interested in your review as I was considering getting a CMS jigsaw module soon. Do you have any experience with the Trion and its CMS module? I wonder whether it is better than the Carvex. It seems as if many of your complaints are specific to the Carvex and particularly the battery-operated ones.

Thanks.
 
What blade where you using , i tried my mains carvex  bolted upside down with the guiderail base to my prototype work bench and cut 40mm worktop dead square and straight, i also tried a curve with a radius of about 150mm in 18mm melamine and that was almost perfect but only with the thicker fsg blade. If i can take some pics or video and work out how to post them to show you i will . got to agree about the dust tho
 
Richard: I don't have first hand Trion experience barring seeing the combination at the Festool showroom. If I can recall correctly it has a more solid attachment to the CMS module - maybe directly with the standard base? That might enable some tilting as well but this is purely speculation on my part.

Dave: For the tight curves of the trivets I used a new Craftomat HCS 3mm deep blade that is identical to the one I used freehand last time for the same task and for the resawing trial I used the Festool HS75 Bi blade. As long as the work piece is not run against a fence or rotated tightly the blades cut square and especially the under side with the zero-insert still intact gave a perfect cut too.

My main gripes are that the battery Carvex does not fit very well into the CMS-module that is clearly designed for the mains operated models and actually was originally designed for the Trion. This mismatch combined with the ergonomics loss of not being able to use the CMS base module power switches just underline the gap.

Also I guess my expectation what one can do with having a jigsaw upside down on a table module have been incorrect since I expected to be able to do this kind of light scrollsawish work with my Carvex and be able to cut circles with a radius
 
Thanks for the review very nice!  I have been interested in the CMS module for the carvex but have considered making my own because I rather integrate the quick release feature of the carvex.  So basically have a spare metal sqaure base attached to my own module and I can just clip the carvex into place.  Not like how festool does it with more bits and pieces they are just annoying.  Basically if you seen my video of the OF2200 how mine now just clips into place thats how I would like my carvex to be like.

JMB
 
jmbfestool said:
Thanks for the review very nice!  I have been interested in the CMS module for the carvex but have considered making my own because I rather integrate the quick release feature of the carvex.   So basically have a spare metal sqaure base attached to my own module and I can just clip the carvex into place.  Not like how festool does it with more bits and pieces they are just annoying.   Basically if you seen my video of the OF2200 how mine now just clips into place thats how I would like my carvex to be like.

JMB

my base is permanently bolted to a 12mm birch ply bench as i found that using it on the guide rail was a waste of time due to the play when running along the guide rail  ( you have to push it into the rail to guarantee a straight cut so makes the base a bit redundant really ) . I would think , as i have done , its easier just to leave the base attached to your top and just unclip the jigsaw and clip on standard base for normal operation
 
I bought a second base for the CMS module and it works as expected - no need to remove the ADT-PS-400 base from the CMS module - just unclip the Carvex. The extra base costs 11€ so it's a no brainer.

You can unclip the Carvex blindly from the base by feel, but it is safer and easier to rotate the CMS module over to release the saw from the base.
 
I am far from the safety police, but two things in your review concern me:  The inability to turn off the saw immediately, and the automatic speed control. 

I am not sure if I would like a saw that speeds up on its own.  I have never used a carvex, so maybe the auto speed control is intuitive. 

Would you try the same project upright, to see how it compares with your old Makita? 

 
I'm a fan of CMS in concept, but little things are holding me back ... particularly the fitting and removal processes. Though my CARVEX is mains, this review has me doubting the benefits of CMS if I'd be alternating TS75 and OF2200 modules and adding a bandsaw to the mix (currently undecided about "how big").

Obviously you wouldn't cart a shop bandsaw to a work site and this is where the CMS+jigsaw absolutely shines ... even though that's not an issue for me, space still is.

Sorry to hear this isn't great for you Reiska  [sad]
 
Vindingo said:
I am far from the safety police, but two things in your review concern me:  The inability to turn off the saw immediately, and the automatic speed control. 
I am not sure if I would like a saw that speeds up on its own.  I have never used a carvex, so maybe the auto speed control is intuitive. 

I totally agree that the power switch is in an ill position when you need to reach under the table to switch the saw on or off. I seriously do hope that someone at Festool R&D get the message about developing a slim-line mains-to-battery interface adapter so that the battery versions could be converted to mains pluggable version in this situation (or when long running time is required) so that I could use the proper emergency stop switch.

It is quite intuitive (two positions idle - full speed) as long as you make cuts that you have a constant feed going on so that the automatic speed controller senses constant drag on the blade and keeps the speed up. There is a slight delay before the saw goes back into idle mode so you are allowed minute breaks in constant feed, but we are only talking about a couple of seconds delay. What makes it go haywire in this example is the fact that since I'm trying to cut a rather complicated tightening spiral curve into this piece of wood I need to pause every so often to reposition my hands for the next part of the arch and during that time the speed control decides to drop down to idle mode again and then it takes a bit of drag on the blade again to reactivate the speed up. It's this idle-full speed-idle-full speed-idle cycle that ruined the outer curve in the example piece above. You have to press an idling blade into the material to engage the automatic accelerator, then it will 'lunge' forward when the power kicks in, but because you are trying to stay on a tight curve and the lunge effectively runs straight you will ruin the curve.

I did some more trial & error before our evening silence @ 10 p.m. and found that one can do more controllable cutting with constant speed set to 5 and swing set to 1 (instead of zero swing with auto speed). Not as fast, but much more controllable. Still does not make tight curves any easier i.e. at the centre of the spiral I had to cut from both directions and cut the curves wide to 'meet in the middle' instead of being able to just cut along the d=20mm end curve.

I'll definitely try doing a free hand cut tomorrow after work if it doesn't rain since I still have three trivet pairs to cut and just managed to sell off my Makita... I actually hope that here the cordless Carvex will shine since the power cord was constantly in a knot around the saw when I was cutting these with my corded Makita. Just hope that I won't make too many more scrap ones. I'll see if something can be saved with generous rounding with my Dremel, but it will result in a loose spiral pair.

Also I'll try to verify if it is the blade itself twisting with the work piece and denting the zero insert or is it twisting from the saws blade socket - not totally sold on the merits of the Festool blade change mechanism either - it doesn't seem as rugged as my old Makitas one is. At least the Makita will release the blade every time without fail since the lever is more solidly attached to the blade socket whereas the Carves has this push rod in the barrel grip that's supposed to make contact with a small protrusion on the side of the blade socket to twist it open and it will hit thin air if the blade isn't fully retracted into the saw, which it isn't most of the time when I turn the motor off, so you need to manually push the blade in before you can eject it. The Festool showroom one had the release rod somehow bent so badly that it didn't make contact with the blade socket at all ergo you could not eject a blade without pressing the rod against the socket when sliding the release. Of course those showroom tools had all gotten a serious beating so mine will probably never get into that sort of condition with the amount of use it will see.
 
As you well know Kev, I'm not going further 'onsite' than my own back yard and have similar space constraints as you seem to have. I can't fit a band saw anywhere nor a scroll saw at the moment so that's why I bought into the CMS system with my OF, TS and now PS inserts.

As long as you have dedicated machines to put into the inserts like the TS75 & OF2.2k and maybe a Trion and use a TS55, OF1010 and a Carvex for hand held operations and keep the permanently attached machines in the modules on a shelf (or dadoed into a cupboard frame to be the shelves themselves) it's literally a matter of seconds to swap from one machine to another and the main work will be with conversion to router mode with the heavy router fence installation and the moving of the electric plug & DC hose. Attaching and detaching the machines from the inserts is not too time consuming either, but is a slight hassle.

Now on the downside of the CMS system is that when you do get into getting the extension tables, sliding table and precision fence you will suddenly have a large pile of accessories lying around that don't fit into a systainer of any size nor in most cupboards unless they fit vertically in it. So the space you save compared to stationary machines will be somewhat lost to the jigsaw puzzle of loose parts unless you can keep the base unit out and assembled most of the time.

I also find the tilting of the TS saw not very convenient to set under the table with two knobs compared to proper table saws with a single cogwheel for setting the angle precisely.
 
In my homemade jigsaw table i found that the carvex works best with the speed set as low as possible, there is less vibration and a lower tendency to catch and throw the workpiece in the air. Also the automatic speed thing will not work if the speed is not set on "5", and the strobe light turns off when you put the saw upside down.

My carvex is a mains one, so i need to block the switch in on position with the special little key, connect it to the vac and turn it on/off with the vac button which feels rather safe.

Personally i find the on/off switch dangerous on the barrel carvex, it's a push switch that doesn't stay in position, you push it forward to turn the saw on, the switch comes back in position, and to turn it off you must push it forward again. I cannot reach the switch with any of my fingers when i am holding the saw normally, it's too far up front. So to turn it on/off i must hold it upside down or on it's side and crawl my hands forward or let it slip down so i can reach the switch, and i have normal sized hands.
I see no practical reason why they did that, other than making it more annoying/dangerous to use.
 
Reiska said:
Now on the downside of the CMS system is that when you do get into getting the extension tables, sliding table and precision fence you will suddenly have a large pile of accessories lying around that don't fit into a systainer of any size nor in most cupboards unless they fit vertically in it. So the space you save compared to stationary machines will be somewhat lost to the jigsaw puzzle of loose parts unless you can keep the base unit out and assembled most of the time.

If you use a dedicated shelf system it all stores quite well. I think Festool make something specific like that for the modules and accessories. I always have the base unit assembled with at least a module though.
 
Nigel said:
Reiska said:
Now on the downside of the CMS system is that when you do get into getting the extension tables, sliding table and precision fence you will suddenly have a large pile of accessories lying around that don't fit into a systainer of any size nor in most cupboards unless they fit vertically in it. So the space you save compared to stationary machines will be somewhat lost to the jigsaw puzzle of loose parts unless you can keep the base unit out and assembled most of the time.

If you use a dedicated shelf system it all stores quite well. I think Festool make something specific like that for the modules and accessories. I always have the base unit assembled with at least a module though.

Nigel,

Festool make something to store the modules, but Reiska is right when he says there are a ton of accessories that remain "homeless." I just have the CMS router module, but I have a systainer dedicated to all the bits and bobs it comes with, and the fence itself is somewhere else. I wish there was a way to store it all more conveniently.

Richard.
 
Richard,

Well I just have shelves for the fence and modules. All that's left is the locating tongue ' thingy' which screws to the module and then that leaves the curved routing accessories ....unless I've forgotten something Yes there are some bit's to store . I just don't think it's anything like having stationary machines which was Reiska's comment. How much space would you need for table saw with sliding table,a band saw and a router table or spindle moulder etc ? If you have a belt sander and module you could add that as well.  Using the shelf type system the sliding table,module,fences and extension tables can be easily stored in a small wall space the only thing left that I can think of is the curved routing gear and clearance plates which is tiny...I store all those with my cutters.

Nigel.
 
My comment regarding the bits and bobs stem from my lack of a dedicated or even semi-dedicated shop space. Therefore I need to dismantle everything after every use entirely and pack them away. I don't have a large enough space to purchase the CMS storage tower from Festool, but I'm looking seriously into converting the space I have under the stairs to host the entire CMS system in an orderly fashion. Just need to make up my mind will I ever get the belt sander module to round up my collection or not ;-)
 
Hi Reiska,

Sorry to hear that you have so much trouble with the new carvex and the CMS. I have the Trion PS300 and it works great. Changing a blade is a breeze and if installed with a original Festool blade (check their thickness) I normally don't experience any bending of the blade.

Like you I would like to add the CMS BS 120 but the paper size is holding me back. I fear that once Festool stop producing the sander, I can't get hold of new sandpaper.  :'(

Fortunately my CMS can be stored on top of the MFT3 with the sliding table and extension table still attached but the loose pieces must be stored separate in a box or something. Just take that pill and store the pieces in a box or something and keep them handy. I store my 'spare powercords', curved routing gear + clearance plates + key, the spanners for the MFT, the transparant OF-FH 2200 (495246 an ideal extended baseplate by the way), spare zero clearance pieces for the Trion and the TS75 and some more stuff in a dedicated box. A similar box contains my measuring tools and squares. I don't have any problem with that, store it properly and you can find it easily. The additional guiding rail, the MFS700 and of course several dedicated jiggs are on the wall. Everything has it place now and I plan to keep it like that the upcoming years. Think SYSTEM and expand it to make it work for you...
 
Reiska said:
My comment regarding the bits and bobs stem from my lack of a dedicated or even semi-dedicated shop space. Therefore I need to dismantle everything after every use entirely and pack them away. I don't have a large enough space to purchase the CMS storage tower from Festool, but I'm looking seriously into converting the space I have under the stairs to host the entire CMS system in an orderly fashion. Just need to make up my mind will I ever get the belt sander module to round up my collection or not ;-)

Reiska,

That must be a pain having to pack everything away all the time. You don't have to have space for the module tower. I just use simple adjustable shelf brackets like these as hangers/pegs for the various parts which sit on instead of the shelf. You could get something in a small space or under the stairs. Very cheap [smile]

Nigel.

http://www.terrific-designs.com/adjustable-shelf-brackets-pictures-selections-and-galleries/adjustable-shelf-brackets-4/
 
Nigel said:
Reiska said:
My comment regarding the bits and bobs stem from my lack of a dedicated or even semi-dedicated shop space. Therefore I need to dismantle everything after every use entirely and pack them away. I don't have a large enough space to purchase the CMS storage tower from Festool, but I'm looking seriously into converting the space I have under the stairs to host the entire CMS system in an orderly fashion. Just need to make up my mind will I ever get the belt sander module to round up my collection or not ;-)

Reiska,

That must be a pain having to pack everything away all the time. You don't have to have space for the module tower. I just use simple adjustable shelf brackets like these as hangers/pegs for the various parts which sit on instead of the shelf. You could get something in a small space or under the stairs. Very cheap [smile]

Nigel.

http://www.terrific-designs.com/adjustable-shelf-brackets-pictures-selections-and-galleries/adjustable-shelf-brackets-4/

I use the same shelf brackets
 
Back
Top