caulk and crown molding

[mastercabman]

I have been pretty busy lately with remodels
Most of them the homeowners wants to have the cabinets to the ceiling with crown molding at the top
Some are 1 piece and some are 2
But of course I usually come across out of level ceilings and that really makes it hard to keep nice reveals and pushing the crown to the ceiling
I try to work the crown the best I can but that leaves some gaps to be fill with caulk
But we are getting call back because of the crown separating from ceiling or caulk is cracking/shrinking
Most are not really bad maybe 1/8"
And some gets to about 1/4"-3/8" !
I know that wood does expand/shrink with season change
The boss man is tired of having to send someone to recaulk and then having to pay someone to touch up paint
So I am trying to solve this problem
I was looking at my crown molding that I installed/caulked/finished at my house and still looks good and I can't recall that I ever had to recaulk it
Do you guys have those issues with having to recaulk molding?
Maybe I need to go back to caulking 101 class!

 

[ewils91]

We use Sashco Big stretch, we also acclimate the material for about a week and try to install in the fall, winter or early spring if we can persuade the client after explaining the benefits.

 

[bkharman]

One trick that always stayed with me was to nail the crown to the ceiling only, caulk there and that allows the crown to "float" up and down the wall.  Easy to do when it is stained wood, maybe not as easy when it is painted.  Hopefully [member=13337]Scott B.[/member] or one of the other painters can add to the list here...

Cheers.  Bryan.

 

[peter halle]

Most of us - including myself - actually probably are caulking wrong.  We apply caulk and then wipe it with a finger, thumb, sponge, etc.  This causes the caulk to adhere at more than the edges.  This is a weaker caulk joint.

Also caulk can expand to a certain percentage of the width.  Tiny joint equals not much stretch before failure.  Bigger joints are actually stronger joints even though they may look cruddy.

Acclimate material if possible as has been mentioned will not hurt except for scheduling.

Peter

 

[Scott B.]

It is a misunderstood concept. The classes we taught at JLC Live recently spent a lot of time on product and process related to this level of paint grade work.

It's not just a simple matter of filling some gaps with caulk and painting. Product selection (primer, caulking, paint) and sequencing of process is not just about efficiency, but also performance (ie adhesion, flash elimination, etc).

If 1/8" gaps are on the smaller side here, I think there is either a serious fastening issue, or a serious shrinkage issue in the wood. 1/8" on paint grade is a country mile.

 

[mastercabman]

One trick that always stayed with me was to nail the crown to the ceiling only,

Mmmmmm?
How is that possible?
Sure if there's joists at the right place but what do you nail to where there's no joists or wood behind drywall?

 

[bkharman]

I have mounted triangles or similar mounting blocks to the ceiling joists and attach the crown to it. This way when the house breathes in dryer months, and the ceiling goes up, the whole crown moves with it.

 

[Allyson]

I use Big Stretch as well.  I lately go back and do another layer after the first is dry.  I make sure to get a fraction on the outside of the wood/crown.  Ceiling finishes, especially in 70's - 90's house were often done with poor materials, and I wonder if some of the problem is actually not the caulking, but the ceiling paint/material being pulled off by the strong caulk?  No help, but it could be part of the issue if you see some of the ceiling finish stuck to the pulled caulk.

 

[Luzzy]

Such a common issue. When I moved into my house 8 years ago , I installed 6" poplar crown in all but one room and 6" cherry in the other.(my ceilings are 9'-3"). I took the time to glue and nail a plywood nailer beveled and slightly less then the back width of the crown . I let all the wood acclimate and I backprimed all the crown and used poly on the cherry. I also made sure all copes and miters were sealed. 8 years later , I've only recalled the bathroom. As hard as it is to take the extra steps to acclimate and seal all sides and also provide a solid continuous nailer , it works .

 

[mastercabman]

I have mounted triangles or similar mounting blocks to the ceiling joists and attach the crown to it. This way when the house breathes in dryer months, and the ceiling goes up, the whole crown moves with it.

I can see if you are putting crown up in rooms wall to ceiling but I'm not so lucky when I put crown on cabinets to the ceiling
Since wall cabinets are 12" deep I usually don't have anything in the ceiling to nail to(if joists are running parallel)
I guess I could glue a 1x at top of wall cabs and use that to nail the crown
But I will need to discuss that with the boss man because I'm not doing that for free! ;D

 

[tiralie]

Most of them the homeowners wants to have the cabinets to the ceiling with crown molding at the top

If the ceilings are relatively flat, this is a nice look. Unfortunately most new ceilings are not. I would add this note to the contract stating the issue.

Some are 1 piece and some are 2

I have a kitchen that was installed (not by me) 15 yrs. ago and the crown under the soffit has a space that varies from 1/2" to 1/8" depending on the time of year.

[attachimg=1]

[attachimg=2]

But the poplar crown that was installed 20-15yrs ago, doesn't move at all. Same house same conditions humidity, heat etc. Leads me to believe that either the cabinets are moving or the soffit is.

But of course I usually come across out of level ceilings and that really makes it hard to keep nice reveals and pushing the crown to the ceiling
I try to work the crown the best I can but that leaves some gaps to be fill with caulk
But we are getting call back because of the crown separating from ceiling or caulk is cracking/shrinking
Most are not really bad maybe 1/8"
And some gets to about 1/4"-3/8" !
I know that wood does expand/shrink with season change

In these situations it's better to use MDF/or Thermafoil if possible. It doesn't change with humidity.

The boss man is tired of having to send someone to recaulk and then having to pay someone to touch up paint
So I am trying to solve this problem
I was looking at my crown molding that I installed/caulked/finished at my house and still looks good and I can't recall that I ever had to recaulk it
Do you guys have those issues with having to recaulk molding?

I hate caulking molding, I do caulk but keep it to 1/8th or less. If the ceiling is out I cut the molding to fit the reveal.

 

[rizzoa13]

If the ceiling is that wavy ill float the ceiling down to within a decent caulk bead, but I'm anal. I like to cut beveled triangles and then install the crown to that. You get the crown perfectly straight but it'll most likely leave large gaps and that's where the spackle work comes in.

 

[JimD]

In the last house we lived in we had it built from a bare lot.  The main rooms all had crown and it all gapped the first winter.  I had given up on getting the contractor back and just grabbed a tube of caulk and filled the gaps, then painted.  Some required this twice but that pretty much solved it.  Subsequent years were much, much less than that first year.  I think the wood was drying out and the whole house was settling a little.

In the current house, we have the nasty popcorn ceiling and somebody, probably the previous homeowner, put up crown and caulked the crown to the popcorn.  That doesn't work.  It opens every year.  It appears he also attached some interior walls to the ceiling without removing the wallboard and just caulked the joint.  Again with popcorn on the ceiling.  That really doesn't work.

But assuming your jobs are not in old popcorn houses, my best suggestion is Duo-sil caulk.  I usually use cheap Dap or "white lightening" painters caulk but it does not adhere like Duo-sil and it doesn't stick like it either.  Duo-sil is paintable (urethane) and available in clear, white, and some other colors.  Maybe the other caulk mentioned above is better, I've never used it, but Duo-sil is much better than painters caulk.  I use it when silicone would be another viable option.  I think it's better.  Stickier and more flexible.

 

[AlexThePalex]

The problem with the cheaper caulks, which happen also to be the ones painters/installers use most, is that they lose their flexibility after a couple of years. These caulks work great when the gap is not that big and when they are well sealed with paint. But when they have to span bigger gaps they fail over time.

You American guys use different names for the materials you use than we use over here, so it is difficult for me to point you in the right direction. I could point you to a better quality caulk that for sure will solve 95% of the problems mentioned, but I don't know how it's called over there.

The cheaper caulks I mean above are what we call acrylate caulk, and are based on an acrylate dispersion. This is a very cheap and widely used caulk, I assume it is also widely used in America. It remains flexible (to a point) and can be painted. It is just not that durable and often has to be renewed after a couple of years.

Because of that reason I more and more use a different type of caulk, which is twice as expensive but lots more durable. It is a caulk that can both seal and glue and remains flexible and can be painted. Been using it for 3 years now and cracks simply don't appear like with acrylate caulk, it remains rock solid. And because it is also a glue the bond is a lot stronger.

It is called Hybrifix Super 7 from the Dutch brand Den Braven Sealants. I can't say what's in it exactly, they keep that a secret, they only say it's of "hybrid" technology.

You and your boss should really inquire with your supplier if a caulk like that is available, there must be an equivalent in America. There are so many types of caulks, and getting a better quality caulk can solve many problems.     

Edit: apparently it is available in America from Miko USA, and also under the name Hybri-Sil.

Den Braven website.

 

[mastercabman]

Thanks Alex
I will look into it
I have been using a caulk made by Phenoseal
It's a caulk/adhesive
We found a caulk call "big stretch"
It suppose to expand up to 2 inches!!!
Will see
Going tomorrow to take care of one of those jobs

 

[bzotya]

I'm using also Vinyl Adhesive Caulk by Phenoseal. I have a lot less problem since using it. Usually when we install crown or any other kind of mouldings I like to wait as long as I can with caulking sometimes couple of days a week it depends on the job we are doing. When installing the crown to ceiling and no joist above it I use 16 gauge 2.5" long nails in X directions that will make sure secure the crown to sag.
Hope it helps
PZ

 

[leakyroof]

The problem with the cheaper caulks, which happen also to be the ones painters/installers use most, is that they lose their flexibility after a couple of years. These caulks work great when the gap is not that big and when they are well sealed with paint. But when they have to span bigger gaps they fail over time.

You American guys use different names for the materials you use than we use over here, so it is difficult for me to point you in the right direction. I could point you to a better quality caulk that for sure will solve 95% of the problems mentioned, but I don't know how it's called over there.

The cheaper caulks I mean above are what we call acrylate caulk, and are based on an acrylate dispersion. This is a very cheap and widely used caulk, I assume it is also widely used in America. It remains flexible (to a point) and can be painted. It is just not that durable and often has to be renewed after a couple of years.

Because of that reason I more and more use a different type of caulk, which is twice as expensive but lots more durable. It is a caulk that can both seal and glue and remains flexible and can be painted. Been using it for 3 years now and cracks simply don't appear like with acrylate caulk, it remains rock solid. And because it is also a glue the bond is a lot stronger.

It is called Hybrifix Super 7 from the Dutch brand Den Braven Sealants. I can't say what's in it exactly, they keep that a secret, they only say it's of "hybrid" technology.

You and your boss should really inquire with your supplier if a caulk like that is available, there must be an equivalent in America. There are so many types of caulks, and getting a better quality caulk can solve many problems.     

Edit: apparently it is available in America from Miko USA, and also under the name Hybri-Sil.

Den Braven website.

Thanks Alex, it's always nice to have more products and resources to choose from.
I clicked on their link, appears to be direct sale only with no other retailers to choice this caulking from since the importer is the sole supplier maybe.

 

[jmbfestool]

I totally agree with Alex.

I think this has been brought up on fog before.

I stopped using caulk years years ago because I thought it was crap for what I needed it for plus seeing endless jobs where decorators have caulked skirting and small hair line crackes have appeared later on down the line.

So I went onto using sticks like or fix all which sound very similar hybri fix super 7 Alex uses.

It stays flexible and is strong so won't break.
It also really ponds the surfaces together so it also helps keep everything in place unlike caulk which is weak and goes hard.

 

[jmbfestool]

Just watched the video to see if it's the same as the one I use pretty sure it is.


polymer glue like the one I use.

The video is terrible for one the gun he's using is totally wrong for a thick adhesive like that.  It would be hard on the hands and the gun will likely fail and fall apart after a few uses.
Two you cant use this type of glue for sealing around sinks, baths or anything like that because it doesn't stay white because it's paintable it has a non smooth/shiny surface so dirt is attracted to it. Might look nice for couple days lol.  Plus don't know bout any one else like but this stuff isn't as easy as silicon to smooth out it has the tendency to drag and smudge which isn't a problem when painting.

 

[waho6o9]

Thank you Alex!