Cedar Carriage Doors

[jacko9]

Vinny,  When I've glued up stack of boards like this, I made sure to use a lot of glue and placed a layer of wax paper between each set to avoid gluing the wrong combination.

It also looks like the glue joint was starved and perhaps it might have skimmed over before you got the clamp pressure on the stack.

I emailed Tidebond from a link on there web site asking about joining rosewood and got a detailed response from one of their technical specialists who advised that I clean the joint with acetone until there was no color coming off on the rags and then to use Tidebond II Extend clamping a minimum of 24 hours and not stressing the joint for a few days.

I realize that Western Red Cedar has much different properties than rosewood but, you might ask them to see what adhesive they might recommend.

Jack

 

[Oldwood]

I think cedar needs a long tenon 3 to 3.5 " but if the joint is tight fitting titebond 2 will work fine. I would not do a through tenon because of the issues already mentioned. I don't think draw pins are necessary if you get a good glue joint. I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser & cut my tenons on a sliding table on a shaper with two blades shimmed apart until the tenon is a good interference fit. ( tap together & apart with a rubber mallet) I haunch the tenon on the bottom rail so the tenon is about 6.5" wide.
Gerry

 

[ictusbrucks]

thanks for the bowclamp tip.

Regarding your purchasing of dowels... I used a little trick to make my own dowels recently. Its probably not anything special, and you probably already know it but here goes anyways...

I had a roundover bit of ~9.5mm radius. I planed some stock to 19mm. Then I just ran the pieces over the router table on all 4 sides. I was only dowelling the last 4-5 inches so I still had square bar to keep on the table for better support, but this worked really nicely for me. 

To get them to fit in the 3/4" holes I just had to wrap each dowl in sandpaper and give 2-3 turns it then they plopped right in.

 

[tiralie]

I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser

I love that PC 513. I may have to break down and get one. I wish they sold them without the router, I have enough PC routers sitting around not earning their keep. Lovely looking shop BTW.
Tim

 

[tiralie]

thanks for the bowclamp tip.

Regarding your purchasing of dowels... I used a little trick to make my own dowels recently. Its probably not anything special, and you probably already know it but here goes anyways...

I had a roundover bit of ~9.5mm radius. I planed some stock to 19mm. Then I just ran the pieces over the router table on all 4 sides. I was only dowelling the last 4-5 inches so I still had square bar to keep on the table for better support, but this worked really nicely for me. 

To get them to fit in the 3/4" holes I just had to wrap each dowel in sandpaper and give 2-3 turns it then they plopped right in.

LN also makes a dowel plate. Handy for making specialty wood (other than maple) dowels.
Tim

 

[Oldwood]

I cut the mortise with a lock mortiser

I love that PC 513. I may have to break down and get one. I wish they sold them without the router, I have enough PC routers sitting around not earning their keep. Lovely looking shop BTW.
Tim

Hi Tim,

The first time I used the 513 to cut a mortise I was gob smacked at how fast it was. The mortises are also always exactly the same width & dead centered on the door. I have attached a pic of the shaper setup. It takes a while to setup but you can turn out tenons up to 3.75" long that are all exactly the same size. I have an extra 513 in as new condition I bought for a backup when I was building doors full time.........if you weren't on the other end of the country you could stop by & take a look at it [tongue] The only downside I see with it is that .625" is the smallest cutter it will take.

Gerry

Gerry

 

[ictusbrucks]

I did not realize you could put saw blades on a shaper spindle.   I have a 1.25" spindle on mine; are there any blades with an arbor that size or would it require getting a 1" spindle?

That LN dowel plate is pretty nifty. Might have to pick one up.

 

[Alan m]

guido huin has a video making dowels with the cms router. (i know , NAINA) but any router would work.
he drilled 2 holes on a piece of timber and clamped it over the bit. one hole allows the bit to come up into the second hole.
the second hole is the size of the square stock (any regular shape would do) . the square stock can rotate in the round hole and is fed into the cutter . the height of the cutter sets the dowel diameter.

 

[Oldwood]

I did not realize you could put saw blades on a shaper spindle.   I have a 1.25" spindle on mine; are there any blades with an arbor that size or would it require getting a 1" spindle?

That LN dowel plate is pretty nifty. Might have to pick one up.

Hi,

I had those blades bored to 1.25" & I use a larger washer top, bottom & middle to help stabilize them a bit more. I run them at 3600 rpm which is well below the max rpm for those blades. I would talk to your saw blade supplier to get a blade that is appropriate for the cut. It is more of a fine rip blade than a crosscut.

Gerry

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Those look like they are going to be real nice doors.  I too have glued up tons of WR Cedar with no problems.  If I was in your shoes I would be extremely concerned about the integrity of the other glue ups.  WR Cedar sucks up the glue like crazy, I would want to see gobs of squeeze out.

I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required.  My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack.  If that is the case then I would be testing those first.  Consider cutting off the ends of your stiles, and running them on edge through your table saw.  Cut 1/2 way through the joint and see if you can seperate the other half with a flatbar. 

I'd also check the how old the TBIII is, it is in the printed code on the bottle.  TB recommends that their glues only are used for structural joints up to 1 year after being manufactured.  I don't know if this is just them trying to sell more glue or a chemical change in the glue.  Anyways that is why companies like Rockler blow out their TB from time to time, and is something that most people don't even know is a concern.

I hope my concerns are unjustified and it was just a fluke.  Would love to see those doors when they are done. 

 

[Vindingo]

Jack,

I emailed Titebond, this was their response:

With Cedar, oils and/or resins can sometimes migrate to the surface. Titebond III is a water based wood glue and it counts on the wood absorbing the moisture/water from the glue for bonding. When this happens, the wood also pulls some of the adhesive down into the pores, and this is part of the reason for the tenacious bond strength. The fix to the surface oils/resins is easy. Before applying the Titebond III, wipe down the bonding area with a rag and the solvent Acetone. If there are any oils/resins you will see them on the rag. Then proceed to apply your glue and everything will work as designed.
Thanks,
Bee

Bee Miller
Technical Service Representative
Construction Products Division
Franklin International
2020 Bruck St.
Columbus, OH 43207

I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required.  My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack.  If that is the case then I would be testing those first. 

What clamps would you recommend?  The Revo's are supposed to have 1500lbs of clamping pressure, which is more than 3/4" pipe clamps. 

Those two boards were actually on the outside next to the clamp, which makes me think that because of that location, it was the first one with glue (most likely too little glue) and it sat for the longest without getting any pressure.

I'm not sure that the stress is worth what I saved by not buying the thicker stock to begin with. 

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Those look like they are going to be real nice doors.  I too have glued up tons of WR Cedar with no problems.  If I was in your shoes I would be extremely concerned about the integrity of the other glue ups.  WR Cedar sucks up the glue like crazy, I would want to see gobs of squeeze out.

I also would not feel OK about using the Bessy Revo's in that application as I do not think they have anywhere near the clamping pressure required.  My guess is that the ones that seperated were in the middle of the bottom stack.  If that is the case then I would be testing those first.  Consider cutting off the ends of your stiles, and running them on edge through your table saw.  Cut 1/2 way through the joint and see if you can seperate the other half with a flatbar. 

I'd also check the how old the TBIII is, it is in the printed code on the bottle.  TB recommends that their glues only are used for structural joints up to 1 year after being manufactured.  I don't know if this is just them trying to sell more glue or a chemical change in the glue.  Anyways that is why companies like Rockler blow out their TB from time to time, and is something that most people don't even know is a concern.

I hope my concerns are unjustified and it was just a fluke.  Would love to see those doors when they are done. 

Yeah, where is this coming from?  They have more clamping pressure than pipe clamps and more even clamping pressure.  You don't need more than around 200psi of clamping pressure for the glue.  Overclamping is just as bad as underclamping.

 

[Kevin Stricker]

Hey Vinny, sorry for the hijack to your great thread, those doors are going to be amazing.  I love working with Cedar, I just wish it loved me as much!  Keep posting pics!

 

[Rob-GB]

Hi Vinny,
Just a couple of pointers, as if you need them  [wink] , to clarify what I'd do as a matter of best practice on my clients projects:

1) Pre coat panel edges and panel recieving grooves (dado's?) with finishing product; to stop moisture ingress and to prevent panels from being glued in, they need to be able to move naturally.

2) Use whatever clamps you have to assemble the doors and ensure it remains square and flat, over-tightening clamps may cause the rail ends to crush into the stile fibres ( I have seen it happen on softwood doors assembled by over eager apprentices and by me when one rail was slightly longer than it ought to be  [embarassed] but time is money!  ;D )

3) Stick with the draw bore technique rather than straight bore, this will pull the joint up tight and once pegged the clamps can be removed and used on the next one, speeds the job along too.

4) Cut as few corners as possible, re-making a job will lose one much more time than you save! ( It's not like in Autocad where when the project changes you get to re-use some of the old work, which is just as well with my cad speed  ;D )

5) Log each job's time and use that to assist in the next estimate

Looking forward to your finished project,

Rob.

 

[Vindingo]

1) Pre coat panel edges and panel recieving grooves (dado's?) with finishing product; to stop moisture ingress and to prevent panels from being glued in, they need to be able to move naturally.

Rob, thanks for the tips. 

Regarding this first one, I was intending on doing as you mentioned by finishing the edges and grooves, but was thinking of taking it one step further.  Because the groove is in the middle of the glue joint, I was thinking of putting a bead of silicone in the groove (before glue up) and smoothing it over the glue joint. 

Do you think this is overkill?  If there are no open gaps in the glue joint of the groove, will these benefit me in any way?  I am a bit leery of the silicone because it can make a mess and ruin my finish. 

 

[Rob-GB]

Rob, thanks for the tips. 

Regarding this first one, I was intending on doing as you mentioned by finishing the edges and grooves, but was thinking of taking it one step further.  Because the groove is in the middle of the glue joint, I was thinking of putting a bead of silicone in the groove (before glue up) and smoothing it over the glue joint. 

Do you think this is overkill?  If there are no open gaps in the glue joint of the groove, will these benefit me in any way?  I am a bit leery of the silicone because it can make a mess and ruin my finish.   

You are welcome.
I would stay away from the silicone, never done it that way, I just rely on the glue to do the job.

Rob.

 

[jacko9]

Vinny, I would avoid silicone since it's almost impossible to clean it out if you get it on a glue surface.

 

[Rob-GB]

Hey Vinny, how did the project work out for you? It would be interesting to know what you decided to do.

Rob.

 

[tiralie]

Hey Vinny, how did the project work out for you? It would be interesting to know what you decided to do.

Ya, eh? [big grin]

 

[jmbfestool]

When I started using cedar I did some research and found out about its oils etc.  so got a little worried about glueing it up soooo decided to do some tests before hand.

I found PVA doesn't bond western red cedar very well.  I found it wasn't very strong it never failed like yours but I could easily break the joint apart with out any wood breaking off that's glueing with the grain and end grain to end grain.

so I never use PVA with western red cedar any more.  I use PU (polyeruthane) I have done a few test with good results  another good thing about PU it likes Damp wood and cedar I have worked on can sometimes be slightly damp.

I did some more research cus even thought the Regular PU I use does hold well especially glueing two pieces togetther with the grain.  Regular PU doesn't work as well as I like it to on end grain to end grain  

I found this Contruction PU which is brilliant and holds extremely well even end grain also it does NOT require pressure  even though I still recommend it!   Down side it has a extreme fast cure time!  [mad]

Jmb