Centrotec 09 bit set

[jvsteenb]

I'm a big Torx fan, and really don't get all the fuss about the Robertson square drive...... Technology has gotten a bit past square drive if you ask me.... ( I expect some flak for this one....  )

I'm not trying to give you flak...but I am Canadian... the point of the robertson is that its a tapered square that allows the screw to wedge onto the drive and not fall off.  That means you can put a screw on the end of a screwdriver then only using one hand set it in place and screw it; thats the whole point of robertson.  Finding a good robertson screw can be tough though...

Yes I realize that a magnetic bit setter solves this problem but magnetic bit holders are not a panacia.

I use TORX for concrete screws and robertson or hex for nearly everything else.  Robertson has only 4 sizes, 2 popular ones, TORX has well...too many.

I love TORX for how its really hard to cam out while driving fastners, but robertson work just great for 90% of screws I drive.

OK, so you're Canadian....hey, don't apologize, some of my best friends...... [big grin]
Oops, sorry, couldn't resist that one... Being from the Netherlands, I'm DUTCH..... go figure.  [embarassed]

Pun aside, I think I get your point. Actually, one of the reasons I kinda like Torx is that the screw will stay on the bit even without the magnetic tip. Using quite a lot of A2 stainless fasteners, that comes in handy.

One of the most ingenious systems I came across is UniScrew, effectively a stepped internal hex drive. It takes just one bitsize, and depending on the size of the screw, the indentation is deeper, feauturing more sizes, and more gripping surface as well. It can be removed using a normal hex bit, if a uniscrew bit isn't available. I think it's an intelligent approach, and kinda like the way it works. I used quite a lot of them, but they didn't seem to really take off, and the cost was a bit prohibitive.

Regarding Torx, in wood fasteners there's really only two sizes: T15 and T20. These two sizes cover the vast majority of screws you'll encounter. Some tiny sizes come in T10, and some serious fasteners come in T30, but that's about it. I've never encountered T25 in woodscrews, but some manufacturers may use it ? YMMV.

In construction, the size range covers wider grounds, but that's only natural. Actually the Torx profile is a perfect fit for torqueing a screw to tight tolerances, in contrast to phillips, robertson, or whatever wedged design. PZ is only a "bit" better....

Anyhow: to each his own. I like Torx, but the majority of fasteners in my neck of the woods is Pozidriv. I pay a premium for Torx fasteners, too bad. It DOES rule out most of the crap, though. And even then, I use my PZ2 bits more then my TX15 bits....

Good thing there's Centrotec PZ2 bits in the set

Regards,

Job

 

[Inner10]

One of the most ingenious systems I came across is UniScrew, effectively a stepped internal hex drive. It takes just one bitsize, and depending on the size of the screw, the indentation is deeper, feauturing more sizes, and more gripping surface as well. It can be removed using a normal hex bit, if a uniscrew bit isn't available. I think it's an intelligent approach, and kinda like the way it works. I used quite a lot of them, but they didn't seem to really take off, and the cost was a bit prohibitive.

Is the Uniscrew like the Wurth AW-Drive?  I reckon it was a sort of modified tapered torx that was even more resistive to cam out and held fastners better...if only it was more available in north america and standardized.

Pozi are not very popular here, I bought a big box of hilti drywall anchors that used Pozi screws so I asked the salesman for a pozi drive since I didn't even own one (only an old crap one from a no-name company I got in a multi-driver years ago) he said that Hilti doesn't have one...I was a little puzzled that they would sell a screw without the proper drive!

I occasionally have to dissassemble B&W speakers which use pozi screws...almost every time I end up filing the tip of an old phillips.  To say the least Pozi are rather rare around here.

As much as I'm not married to Robertson, if you have a properly cut drive and properly cut screw they really hold!  You can even shake the assembly lightly and the screw will still hold on.

I suppose your right when it comes to screws that they only use the 4 sizes of TORX, thoes are the only I stock in my drill kit.  And I do like that I can jam a TORX into a HEX in a pinch. [big grin]

 

[Frank Pellow]

Sorry Shane, I have to disagree about discussing pricing. Pricing is exactly the issue. During early spring of 09 there was a complete 'new' Centrotec set on ebay like you have in Lebanon. I stopped watching it when the price went well over $500+. It seems to me that the last set here had two faults, too big with too much stuff guys don't use enough and too pricey.
I'll spend 600 on tools we know that. $500-600 on a Sys full of bits and drivers isn't going to happen. I say any new set should be $300. max. Beyond that the price point is too high for a box full of consumables.

I agree, we should have a working assumption of maximum price.  Like Holzhacker, I would likely be interested in an offering that comes in at about $300 (US) but not in one that comes in at $600.

Why are we talking about bundling this woth a sortainer -sortainers cost a lot (and I already have one)?  What I am in interested in  is a wider range of bits.  If it needs to be packaged in something, please make it a mini-systainer. 

Shane, since you seem to be talking about customizing something for the North American market, why do you say that a sortainer might be doable but that a mini-systainer would not.  ???

 

[GreenGA]

Personally, I like the idea of using a Sortainer (I'm actually the one that suggested the idea to McFeely's to package their screws in a Sortainer instead of, in addition to, the regular Systainer.  Okay, enough patting myself on the back.  [embarassed]

The Sortainer, perhaps packaged with a pack of generic foam inserts to store the bits as "families", I think would work quite well.  It would easily allow one to remove the insert, close the drawer, take the insert to the work "site" and return it when done.

Also, packed like that it would allow one to identify which bits were missing so replacements could be ordered.

Overall, I like the idea. [/quote] [thumbs up]

I think talking price may be putting the cart before the horse.  This is just the conceptual stage.  Without knowing what's going into such an offering, it's not possible to talk price.  Maybe we can try it this way...

Imagine taking the previous Centrotec Set offered in the US (or the one from Europe for that matter) and putting all of the components in a sortainer instead of in a systainer with inserts.  Like it or don't like it?  It's a matter of relying on something being assembled in Germany or being able to possibly assemble a Centrotec assortment here in the US.

 

[Frank Pellow]

Personally, I like the idea of using a Sortainer (I'm actually the one that suggested the idea to McFeely's to package their screws in a Sortainer instead of, in addition to, the regular Systainer.  Okay, enough patting myself on the back.   [embarassed]

The Sortainer, perhaps packaged with a pack of generic foam inserts to store the bits as "families", I think would work quite well.  It would easily allow one to remove the insert, close the drawer, take the insert to the work "site" and return it when done...
...

Packaging the bits so that they could fit into a sortainer drawer is OK.  But one should not have to purchase a sortainer in order to get the bits.

 

[ForumMFG]

What about having options?

Sell them with a sortanier or without one.  That way people with sortaniers or people who don't want one don't have to buy it and people without sortaniers or people who want one can buy one.. 

I think you would have more success this way with having options and the fact that a sortainer would be included would jack the price up more than $100 bucks right off the bat.

 

[Holzhacker]

I have to say I am not keen on the Sortainer idea. I like Sortainers and have one that is very important for my use. I will probably buy one maybe two more at some point. The Sortainer jacks the price up almost double right off the bat over a Sys1 set. How many bits will Festool actually be able to put into a Sortainer without the price going sky high or most of it being empty? The Sortainer is a nice idea but I don't know that it is all that practical. In the shop I don't see myself keeping the bits in a Sort
For field work it won't happen. The Sort will rarely if ever make it into the field. The T15 attic Sys has enough daily storage for my needs. I don't need a Sort full of bits for daily field work. I might leave it in the truck but for $126+ just for the box I can't really do that either working in the City. At this point my rolling stack consists of the CT22 with garage, on top of it are stacked the ets, Trion, T15 and a Sys 1 with misc. tools. That is already high enough. I'm not looking to stack a Sortainer on top of that just for bits and drivers.
BTW, I didn't think about it when I bought it but my magnetic Stabila sticks to the side of the CT push handle great. Never have to worry about having a level with.
Markus

 

[Brice Burrell]

While I like the idea of a Sortainer set, I too, feel the price might be too high to be practical. If Festool was able to work out an option to sell the Sortainer set with and/or without the Sortainer I'd really like that.

Here's another idea, although it won't work for everyone. How about have a Centrotec set as an option when buying the new T series drills? The set could be made to fit in the storage areas in the drill insert and the attic. 

 

[John Stevens]

I think talking price may be putting the cart before the horse.  This is just the conceptual stage. [snip] Imagine taking the previous Centrotec Set offered in the US (or the one from Europe for that matter) and putting all of the components in a sortainer instead of in a systainer with inserts.  Like it or don't like it?

Don't like it--the systainer makes it cost too much for my preference.  (I've spent ~$6k on Festool tools, so it's not a question of money but value.)

On the Festool web site there's a 7-piece centrotec wood drill bit set for $80.  The bit diameters go from 3mm-10mm.  Make it go from 1.5mm to 10mm at increments of 0.5mm, and it becomes 18 bits (if I can still count).  Price it at or below $205 and package it in cardboard or plastic or something comparable and I'll consider buying it.  At that price, I still might just buy a good quality set of 1/4" hex-shank bits with diameters of 1/16" through 3/8" and take 'em to a machine shop to have them grooved to work with the centrotec chuck.

Regards,

John

 

[Frank Pellow]

I think talking price may be putting the cart before the horse.  This is just the conceptual stage. [snip] Imagine taking the previous Centrotec Set offered in the US (or the one from Europe for that matter) and putting all of the components in a sortainer instead of in a systainer with inserts.  Like it or don't like it?

Don't like it--the systainer makes it cost too much for my preference.  (I've spent ~$6k on Festool tools, so it's not a question of money but value.)

On the Festool web site there's a 7-piece centrotec wood drill bit set for $80.  The bit diameters go from 3mm-10mm.  Make it go from 1.5mm to 10mm at increments of 0.5mm, and it becomes 18 bits (if I can still count).  Price it at or below $205 and package it in cardboard or plastic or something comparable and I'll consider buying it.  At that price, I still might just buy a good quality set of 1/4" hex-shank bits with diameters of 1/16" through 3/8" and take 'em to a machine shop to have them grooved to work with the centrotec chuck.

Regards,

John

Good advise John!  Let us buy bits, not frills.

 

[greg mann]

At that price, I still might just buy a good quality set of 1/4" hex-shank bits with diameters of 1/16" through 3/8" and take 'em to a machine shop to have them grooved to work with the centrotec chuck.

Regards,

John

Most 1/4" hex shanks are not easily converted as they lack a solid cylinder of adequate size above the shank. I do agree, John, that it is about the bits and drills with centrotec shanks that is the draw here. How we each decide to store them will vary user to user. Unless Festool comes up with a obviously superior way to organize the sets I don't see much point in making the whole thing more expensive. I do think it would make sense to expand your drill set to 12 or 13mm. We are used to sets going to maximums of 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2. That would be 6, 10, or 12 (13?) in metric. Two styles, BTW, the present wood bits AND standard metal cutting point geometry.

 

[Joe Jensen]

I look at the recent Centrotec bit offerings differently...

The Centrotec "bit holders" are all sized according to the drill bit diameter. The HSS drill bits that they hold are consumables, which is why you get 3 with each bit holder and why they come in replacement packs of 10 bits each. I use my drill(s) a lot and I was, personally, very glad to see these hit the market. I drill metal fairly often.

I have designed a lot of mechanical devices with just about every thread form imaginable and just about every tolerance imaginable. I can understand why an inexact bit would be a problem under certain circumstances but I can't think of any that I would want done with a hand drill.

I once went out to the shop where I used to work and caught a guy using a hand drill to ream a hole for a Lee plug that was meant to hold 25,000 psi differential. It was specified to have a Class 3 fit, which meant that the tolerances on the diameter of the hole were .2187" - .2192". One half of one thousandth of an inch play and it required at least a 63 finish - let's not even talk about the runout requirements. What that means to me, is that NO MAN can guarantee that they will achieve those results with a hand drill. Any drilling/machining operation that requires ultra precision needs to be done by a machine not something handheld.

With that in mind, a 6.0mm bit is .2362" and a 6.5mm bit is .2559". It's just my opinion and I don't mean to disparage anyone else's opinion but with a hand drill, less that 14 thousands of an inch on the low side or less than 6 thousandths of an inch on the high side is pretty darn close.

BTW, the recommended "Close Fit" clearance hole for a 1/4" screw is .2570".

Tom

All I know is the closest size the 1/8" pop rivits left holes that were sloppy with the rivit in it.  .5mm is a pretty big jump IMHO for metal work.

I still stand by my first post.  Why would I want to pay 3X the price for bits that are just close?

 

[Joe Jensen]

The brad-point wood-drill-bits are absolutely awesome, and their availability was a big factor in my decision to buy into the Centrotec system. So are the Centrotec driver bits, especially the Torx bits - I'm a big Torx fan, and really don't get all the fuss about the Robertson square drive...... Technology has gotten a bit past square drive if you ask me.... ( I expect some flak for this one.... )

Regards,

Job

Torx are awesome but unobtainable when you need some locally in the US.  Phillips is the norm here (yuk).  Some square drive deck screws. The thing that sucks for me is I bought a huge assortment of square drive from McFeely's here for about $200 a year ago.  Now I have a T15+3 and a butt load of square drive screws  [scared]

Someone shared the name of a great brand of trox that youcan order, but again no local supply.

 

[Dan Clark]

Joe,

I can't help you locally (I don't know your location), but I've ordered from these folks: http://www.screw-products.com/.    Not the quality of the top-end brands, but fairly decent and the cost is reasonable.

Regards,

Dan.

 

[tbellemare]

Why would I want to pay 3X the price for bits that are just close?

Joe:

I can understand your sentiment and the Centrotec bits aren't for everyone. I find them very convenient and they work well for what I do.

BTW: Typical 1/8" pop rivets are .122" - .128" diameter. The nearest Festool metric bit that will clear them is 3.5mm, which is .138". That leaves a diametrical clearance of 10 thousandths of and inch, which is about 1.5 times the tolerance in the rivet itself. Obviously, with a .125" drill bit, you are going to have a tighter fit and half the time an interference fit so the result is going to have less slop, as you found out the hard way.

Tom

 

[John Stevens]

I do think it would make sense to expand your drill set to 12 or 13mm. We are used to sets going to maximums of 1/4, 3/8, or 1/2. That would be 6, 10, or 12 (13?) in metric. Two styles, BTW, the present wood bits AND standard metal cutting point geometry.

Thanks, Greg, good call.  By "wood bits," are you thinking brad-point?

Regards,

John

 

[counterfix]

one thing is vary apparent with everybody's view on this festool is missing out on a huge market share in the USA. [eek] centric 09 bit sets [big grin] will be popular in any  version size sort sys mini or basic.
;D ;D ;D ;D
i know that i have spent not hundreds but more than a thousand  [eek]on  consumables like  these over the past few years

 

[WarnerConstCo.]

Torx are awesome but unobtainable when you need some locally in the US.  Phillips is the norm here (yuk).  Some square drive deck screws. The thing that sucks for me is I bought a huge assortment of square drive from McFeely's here for about $200 a year ago.  Now I have a T15+3 and a butt load of square drive screws  [scared]

Someone shared the name of a great brand of trox that youcan order, but again no local supply.

GRK's are the best.  If I knew where you were located I could help you more.

This might help you or anyone else.

http://www.grkfasteners.ca/grk/servlet/GRKRetailLocator

 

[Joe Jensen]

GRK's are the best.  If I knew where you were located I could help you more.

This might help you or anyone else.

http://www.grkfasteners.ca/grk/servlet/GRKRetailLocator

I'm in AZ.  Fastenal is the only one listed, and I think they are wholesale only 

 

[tbellemare]

Joe:

The Fastenal here sells retail. You might want to give them a call.

Tom