Centrotec questions

[Lucky Dave]

I am contemplating a T 15+3 set and have questions regarding the value of Centrotec.

I understand that the Centrotec chuck and drill will provide a hole with greater concentricity (less runout) than a standard quick change hex chuck and drill.  The question is, how much of an improvement would I see?  Is this a 10%, 20%, 50%, ?%,  improvement?

A follow up question, how much, if any, improvement would I see with a standard Jacobs chuck and drill as compared to a Centrotec? Again, I am looking for quantitative answer ( even if only approximate ). 

PS: Would it help if I limited the discussion to holes less than or equal to 3"?

Thanks for your input.

Dave

 

[Holzhacker]

Not to be rude Dave but this question seems sort of like when guys talk about .001 tolerances with their MFT and TS alignment, irrelevant.
I have a T15 and love it. As far as run out on the T15 compared to another drill ... ? Probably better but couldn't give you any definitive answer. Never thought the run out on a good quality drill was ever that bad in the first place. I have noticed run out on POS drills but since I generally don't use them it isn't an issue for me.
I've found using good quality bits makes or of a difference. On long drills through beams alignment is critical. If your drilling is tolerance critical buy a drill press.
The T15 price is high but I would recommend buying it anyway, it's worth. For me the advantages are lack of weight, ease of use, convenience of components and quality. Run out never came into play. Good luck.

 

[RONWEN]

I am contemplating a T 15+3 set and have questions regarding the value of Centrotec.

I understand that the Centrotec chuck and drill will provide a hole with greater concentricity (less runout) than a standard quick change hex chuck and drill.  The question is, how much of an improvement would I see?  Is this a 10%, 20%, 50%, ?%,  improvement?
A follow up question, how much, if any, improvement would I see with a standard Jacobs chuck and drill as compared to a Centrotec? Again, I am looking for quantitative answer ( even if only approximate ).  
PS: Would it help if I limited the discussion to holes less than or equal to 3"?
Thanks for your input.
Dave

I'm not sure that the way you've asked the question is going to provide you with any really useful answers -- The real value in the T15 is in the features behind the drill bits, back into the drill motor.  The interchangeable chucks are at times extremely useful allowing you to get into positions that you might not be able to otherwise.  The Centrotec chucks are high quality and hold drill bits securely.  Replacing the Centrotec chuck with a Jacobs chuck (which would require a special adapter) would be a step down in my opinion.  Concentricity between those two different chucks is a moot point on a hand drill.  I've replaced Jacob chucks with Albrecht chucks on my drill presses with a measurable improvement but when it comes to hand drills I don't believe you could measure any worthwhile improvement.
With that I guess my answer to your question would be 0% improvement in concentricity.  What type of work are you doing with your hand drill that the drill bit runout is a concern?
I only own one Centrotec drill bit (the one that came with the T15 set) -- they are very high quality but the  sizes available are very limited at least in the U.S.

A number of years ago when I was working in industry I visited the Jacobs Chuck Mfg. Co. / Danaher in Clemson, SC -- at that time (mid 90's) they were producing >20,000 1/4" keyless chucks per week.  When you add in all of the keyed & keyless chucks in various sizes that adds up to an amazing number of new hand drills being manufactured in the world.  [eek]  Where do they all get used??? 

 

[Lucky Dave]

Tks for the input guys. You gave me the info I needed.  Run out improvement on Centrotec not significant.

Just for clarification.  I asked the questions because Centrotec is the one feature of the T 15 that I did not know how to evaluate. At this time, I see no benefit to me of the Centrotec chuck and drills/bits.

I think I did (do) understand the many other features. For me, the size, weight, and power are important, but versatility of the multiple chucks (other than Centrotec) is the deal maker. 

I probably will order and evaluate for a 2-3 weeks.

 

[RONWEN]

Tks for the input guys. You gave me the info I needed.  Run out improvement on Centrotec not significant.

Just for clarification.  I asked the questions because Centrotec is the one feature of the T 15 that I did not know how to evaluate. At this time, I see no benefit to me of the Centrotec chuck and drills/bits.

I think I did (do) understand the many other features. For me, the size, weight, and power are important, but versatility of the multiple chucks (other than Centrotec) is the deal maker. 

I probably will order and evaluate for a 2-3 weeks.

I'll wager that you will be "evaluating" the drill MUCH longer than 2-3 weeks...  [smile]

 

[PaulMarcel]

I agree with Ron.  I have a C-12 drill/driver and own 2 Centrotec bits, one of which I received yesterday so it doesn't count.  Everything about that drill/driver rocks and I can't fathom going back to a different drill/driver.  While the C-12 isn't the same beast as the T-15, I think if you play with the extra chucks, you'll be sold.  The 90? chuck and eccentric chuck have saved me many times.  The 90? isn't like all the after-market chucks that require you to hold the chuck to keep it from spinning.

While I have only used one real Centrotec bit, I have modified several of my long 1/4" hex bits for use in the Centrotec chuck, including the looooong Kreg #2 Robertson drive bit.  It does make it nicer and in the case of Robertson bits, you won't find them in Centrotec at the store (but that's another dead horse to beat )

 

[Brice Burrell]

Dave, I've have some thoughts on the Centrotec system that might be helpful to you.  Before I owned a Festool drill (I now own two T15 drills) I simply couldn't understand the value of the Centrotec system.  My experience with quick change bits systems was terrible. They are had such a poor fit between the bit and the holder that bits wobbled horrendously. That could be very frustrating at times.  The Centrotec bits fit well, with very little wobble or runout for a quick change system.  Runout aside, I think the Centrotec system offers sever advantages over other quick change systems and adds value the Festool drills for the following reasons.  One, it's light weight making the drill very well balanced and super light without the extra weight of the keyless chuck.  Two, the bits are of the highest quality.  Three, it's one of the best quick change systems out there in terms of ease of use and runout.

Festool drills have their own advantages like the brushless motors, light weight, and of course the removable chucks.  I look at the Centrotec system as icing on my Festool cake.       

 

[spikfot]

I'm with Ron Wen on this one...99.999% sure you won't be returning a Festool drill
The T15 is miles beyond any Milwaukee or Makita or Hilti I've ever owned. I use the centrotec 2008 set daily, and I was lucky it was still in stock as the 2009s were already being sold and the ratchet was nothing I wanted/needed. The 2010 set looks even better but the price has gone way up.
Anyone out there want to trade their 3.5mm countersink for a 5mm?

 

[Ken Nagrod]

Dave,

Just to add something, the runout of the shaft of the drill becomes greater the farther out you extend the length of the shaft.  So by adding on a chuck and then bits, it adds to the runout measurement.  By keeping your bits as short as possible will help to reduce the effects of runout.  The way you hold your drill will also have an effect on the quality of the hole you're drilling, which can sometimes be worse than a more accurate person drilling with a drill with a higher amount of runout.

I have a C12 I can measure for you using some very sensitive machinist tools to 0.00005 in./0.001 mm. if you really need to know.  I just have to wait maybe till the end of the week as Festool has my drill for repair.  I'll compare it to my Milwaukees and floor press to give you an idea of how they are.  Just from my experience, the Festool drills are excellent and produce great results as long as the user has the ability to have a good eye and a steady hand.

 

[greg mann]

I must be in the minority because I use my Centrotec drills all the time. While I would like more size options, and there is an inch based set now available, I have found that I can get by with the 3 to 10mm range for many applications. When I truly need a different size I pop on the chuck and pull from a complete set of fractional sizes up to 1/2 inch. The drill is now then about like any other when it comes to size restrictions, such as getting into tight spaces.

It is the accessries that make the Festool drills, IMO, and the fact that you can get into tight spaces. I once needed to install a door stop in a closet that required the use of the right angle attachment with a long shanked Centrotec holder to get into some counterbores deep enough to set the screws. When I finished, I thought, "Pity the poor fool who ever has to take that out."  ;D

 

[tbellemare]

Thank you, Greg!

I have refrained from commenting because anything I say will be interpreted by some as biased.

I love my Festool drills for many reasons, not the least of which is the Centrotec system - both drill bits and driver bits.

I haven't found very many tasks that a C 12 or T 15 can't do and the ones I have found involved concrete, masonry, or rock. I have a Makita 18V impact for that and it works just fine.

The thing I really appreciate is when I have to go in an attic or climbing around and all I need is 1 drill and a nail apron. I put bits and chucks in the nail apron or shirt pockets and I'm set. No having to go back for another drill or drag multiple drills and a cord or any of that nonsense that I used to do regularly.

I personally use the Centrotec drill bits and driver bits all the time. There is no perceptible run out and as has been pointed out already, the run out you cause with a handheld drill is greater than what you will detect with the Centrotec system or a Jacobs style chuck used properly. I can't say the same for most other quick-change systems I've used.

Tom

 

[RONWEN]

Tom, Could you please post the ordering # for the various Centrotec sets available to us.  Based on Brice and Greg's comments I need to "tool up" with the Centrotec sets.

 

[Jesse Cloud]

Hey Tom,
+1 on please post a list of centrotec kits.  I use just about all the bits in the English set.  In addition to having a really good drill, those bits are easy to start at a precise location and the cut quickly and cleanly.

 

[greg mann]

My dream set would be 2mm to 13mm in .5mm increments. I feel that would give me everything I might need.

 

[tbellemare]

Gentlemen:

The only set we have left to sell currently is the Imperial Brad Point Set. I would like to see the/a metric set return but I'm not holding my breath. Those are really excellent bits.

I have stocked my bit larder with the HSS spiral bits also - they come with a hex key and two spares bits. All of the Festool drill bits and countersinks can be seen here. I also added the Centrotec driver bits as I had a need for them. I got to cheat a little there because if I needed something, I just got to go get it from my inventory. It didn't take too many projects or customer visits and I had pretty much everything. All of the Festool driver bits can be found here.

I really like the 100mm long, Centrotec driver bits. They have no perceptible run out and hold really well. For some reason, I find myself having to "reach in" a lot. 'Probably because the plan was for a screwdriver... If I need a "short stack", I go with the HiQ, 25mm bits and stick them right in the output shaft of the drill or the right angle/eccentric chucks. Though the regular 25mm drive bits are pretty good, I wouldn't recommend them as the best value unless you plan on loosing them a lot.

I also understand that we're going to get the "Biggie Set" back but I haven't heard anything definitive.

Tom

 

[tbellemare]

Greg:

I think we could use that also. In addition, I think we could use a nice set of metric forstner bits. I already sell nice sets of Imperial forstner bits from CMT...

Tom

 

[mouppe]

All this [drooling] over the centrotec stuff finally got to me and I ordered the 2010 set from the UK. I believe it goes on sale there at the start of October.

Oh and I should add that I don't even have a Festool drill yet!

[eek]

 

[HowardH]

My T15 is easily the best drill I have ever owned.  A big part, at least to me, of why I love it so much is the centrotec system.  I now exclusively use the GRK star drive screws because there are centrotec bits designed for them.  I can drill a pilot hole and countersink together and in less than 2-3 seconds replace that with the star drive bit and vice versa.  Very cool and no having to spin up a keyless chuck and have it catch the shank of a conventional bit cockeyed.  Snap it in and un-snap it out.  Will never go back to using anything else.  It got the whole set for $575 and haven't used the eccentric or right angle chucks yet but I have them if I ever need them.  

 

[RONWEN]

All this [drooling] over the centrotec stuff finally got to me and I ordered the 2010 set from the UK. I believe it goes on sale there at the start of October.

Oh and I should add that I don't even have a Festool drill yet!

[eek]

Richard, What dealer did you order the set through or are you having a friend send it?  Sounds good.

 

[tbellemare]

I now exclusively use the GRK star drive screws

I have no interest in GRK or any other screw mfr/purveyor, but Torx (star drive) is my preference...

Tom