chinese ply just a warning, it isnt always accurate

dirtydeeds

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a sheet of ply even if you live in the metic world is 8x4

it isnt always if its chinese, this is the second time ive found incorrect sheet sizes with chinese sourced sheets

in both cases the size difference has only been the width of a saw kerf

if the size is important to your projects.....................
 
We just moved into a new house, and as an excuse to unpack the tools yesterday I grabbed a way overpriced quarter sheet of cheap birch veneer ply from the local chain hardware store to make a few shelves for a unit we've got.

In the process of cutting it, I made the mistake of assuming that the factory edges were square. Yeah, they weren't.

Which brings me to another question: How do you buy plywood? The local "We'll only deign to sell retail if you'll buy more than $250 at a shot" yard says their veneer surface plywood has only a 1/52" veneer, I'm not sure that's any less than I'd get at the BORG or the less snooty yard. I'm going to be building a bunch of kitchen cabinets, and they're for our new place and wherever possible we're setting up for "do it once in our lifetimes" sorts of construction. I suppose I could buy Baltic birch and a vacuum press and do it myself, but this seems like overkill, and anything less than Baltic birch seems like it costs as much veneered as unsurfaced.

 
You guys need to find a place that caters specifically to the cabinet trade. The place I get my stuff from is very inexpensive, yet the quality is dramatically better (like comparing Festool to Ryobi for example) than the stuff from either the Borgs or a regular lumber yard (both of which are geared more to the construction industry rather than cabinet makers). I've been buying a lot of 3/4" sheets of Birch lately. The outer veneers are plain sliced and book matched instead of that crap you get from HD that is all rotary cut and looks like garbage. The cores are all poplar and there are virtually no voids. The outer veneers are also a substantial amount thicker. The best thing about this stuff is that its sized at 49"x97" like MDF is. I pay around $45 a sheet for 3/4" Birch and it doesn't matter if I buy one sheet or 300. They do have a Chinese ply as well, its something like $28 a sheet, but that stuff just isn't worth it to me.

Call around to local places and see what is out there (there has to be something, its just not always easy to find them). If you can't locate a local place like the one I'm using, get in touch with some local cabinet shops. Ask them who they are buying from. In a worst case scenario, just ask the cabinet shops to sell you what you need, most of them will. The difference in quality alone will easily be worth it to you.
 
HI,

 It is amazing how thin the veneer layer is getting! It is coming close to being un-useable. I have paid $75 (not Baltic either) USD for some birch plywood from a good lumber dealer as opposed to the $45 at the big box. Trouble is I have to order it sight unseen. I would say it was only marginally better. The  It did offer one advantage in that it was 1/2" oversized in both directions.  But I did not know this up front.  What I really need is to be able to order from a plywood dealer directly so I can pick from every type they offer.
  I have also noticed something showing up recently in the big boxes called "cabinet grade" plywood. It is sort of birch looking on one face but with filled voids, and the other face has knots and filled voids. It is running about $25 in my area. It also has more plys than the  "better" birch. It would be good for painted projects.

Seth
 
I know this doesn't apply to everyone, but anybody needing sheet goods on the westside of LA, Anderson Plywood in Culver City is really excellent. They are a Festool dealer and have several shelves of old hand tools for sale as well. Just a few streets over they just opened Anderson Molding for custom trim and architrave. And they host an old tool sale four times a year in their parking lot.
 
Dan,

I build cabinets for a living and have learned to hate that chinese plywood. I buy from smaller local lumber yards who still carry the decent stuff. The quickest way to identify the cheap chinese stuff is to look at the exposed edge, even on the stack you will see overlaps in the inner plies, good birch plywood does not do this.

As an aside I was using a small piece of the chinese stuff to align a drum sander the other week (which meant repeatedly removing 1/64" from the face, the trick by the way is that the differrent colored layers let you see when your aligned IE if the color is consistant from side to side, your drum sander is aligned). I found all kinds of junk in that plywood, including what I assume is medical waste (you could see the plastic wrist straps in the layers) odd bits of metal (syringe needles) etc. UGH. I honestly believe their using trash as filler in that cheap plywood.

Even on the good stuff, I never use a factory edge, not only can you not rely on it being square, the edge you'll get from the TS 55 is so much better it's worth the extra time and material.

On the thin veneer, the standard was recently reduced, now all fine plywood has a face veneer that will not take much sanding at all.

For cutting panels, I use a shop made cutting table which is a sheet of MDF with a notched fence on the working side (the fence has a T track with tape attached and a movable Kreg stop to simplify setting up for cuts) the notch is wider the the Festool track and there is a fixed stop on the other side of the table to ensure right angle cuts every time. In other words, a cross cut which I do first is always made along the same line on the table, the plywood sheet slides up to the stop to set where the cut in the sheet will occur.

Cutting up a stack of plywood this way is quicker, easier, more accurate, cleaner, and much much safer than a tablesaw. The trick is that (like the MFT, where I er "adopted" the idea from) it ensures right angle cuts (A tablesaw ensures parallel cuts, which is ok, but you can't get to square from parallel, but you CAN get to parallel from square.

The process from a new sheet is: slide it onto the table (I store the current projects sheet stock on sturdy trestles at the "infeed" end of my cutting table) until the rear end is almost past the cut line (just enough over to square up that first edge), pull it up against the fence (towards me) and drop the rail into place, slide it left against the stops and cut. Then spin the sheet around to place the cut end at my left, set the stop to my desired width for that slice (and usually the next few), slide sheet left to the stop and cut, as each slice comes off (these are usually 23" (cabinet sides, decks, etc) wide and easy to handle at this point) and stack them behind me leaning up against another bench. once all slices are cut, each one goes back onto the table to go through the same process (23" wide pieces get cut to 30 1/2" length for cab sides for example). I never lifta  full sheet of ply once it's unloaded onto the "feed stack" (which is where they go when delivered).

Hopefully, there is something in all this excessive description which will help with your cabinet project.

Steve
 
Hi,

  Nice systematic set  up you have.    I have recently used quite a bit of the Chinese stuff. I havn't seen any non-wood in there but who knows. I am beggining to hate  it for other reasons- voids, those overlapping plys  you mentioned, veneer layer that has cracks in it, etc.  It all culminates in just being harder to work with, and often gives less satisfactory results.

Seth
 
Not only are there problems with dimensions and veneer thickess, but Chinese ply also eats up bits and blades.  I went through two straight bits cutting dados and dulled two saw blades building ten bookcase units from about 15 sheets of Chinese ply.  The projects were within the past few weeks and the material all came from the local Home Depot.  It was "called" birch ply.
 
Thanks, y'all. I've gotten concerned 'cause I don't have any clear way to tell the difference, and Mead Clark is about the same for a sheet of birch or maple veneer ply than Home Despot is. I think it looks better, but I'm still learning what to look for. Higgins Hardwoods is the place the guy who redid our floors buys his stuff from, they're the "$250 minimum" shop, but that's, what, 6 sheets, which I'm sure I'll go through fairly rapidly once I get down to knocking out cabinets. If that's indeed the right place to buy.

I've got a truckload of maple and birch "scraps" (5' and 8' lengths, respectively, assorted >= 2" widths, 13/16" thick, S2S) coming from a local cabinet shop to go into various projects around the house. The truck arrives in about 20 minutes, I'll chat up that guy while he's here and see if I can pump his brain about suppliers. Although from chatting with him on the phone my guess is that he gets about one rail car per year from Canada and skips all the local middle-men.
 
And to think, when I moved I gave away seventeen and a half sheets of premium grade 3/4" birch ply. We used to get an entire lumber rack full at the beginning of each show and discard the old at the end. I'm pretty sure most film crews stopped doing this around the end of last year. It's hard to even find 1x12 clear pine anymore, it's all finger jointed.
 
Daviddubya said:
Not only are there problems with dimensions and veneer thickess, but Chinese ply also eats up bits and blades.  I went through two straight bits cutting dados and dulled two saw blades building ten bookcase units from about 15 sheets of Chinese ply.  The projects were within the past few weeks and the material all came from the local Home Depot.  It was "called" birch ply.

I found a small piece of steel in the middle plys of a sheet of Chinese ply from the Despot.
 
Daviddubya said:
...It was "called" birch ply.

That reminds me, last year I returned a sheet of the stuff (the last one I'll buy) to the Despot because it warped so badly. I'd even cut it into pieces already but the more I cut it the more it warped. I'd never returned a piece of wood anywhere in 30 years but I figured the wood was not only worthless it had wasted my time so I wasn't about to let them say "too bad".
 
Hi,

  Okay...  Thats enough bad news , Chinese , plywood stories, plus my own troubles with it, to make me never buy it again!

Seth
 
I had a similar experience in a whole sheet of 3/4" chinese "birch" ply delaminating right through the center.  I made one cut with the TS55 down the center and was wondering why the saw started to bind.  As I completed the cut, the sheet must have sprung 3-4" and came apart into two layers.  I guess it wasn't such a good deal after all.  It looked good though (since it had lots of plys like baltic birch.)
 
We've got a copy of the Home Despot here called Brico Depot.  Their ply is every bit as bad as you are all describing - but the good stuff (not fancy, just good) is nearly twice the $75 or so they charge. For a sheet of cabinet grade half inch poplar ply I have to pay $150 trade, so i very rarely used ply if i could avoid it and used a lot of "blockboard".  They've now stopped selling that - I can't find any anywhere.
I had to make 40 or so boxes for a guy in the film business to use for "levelling tracks for dollies" whatever that means and one sheet of Despot ply actually fell apart (delaminated) when I cut it.  Another had an extra lamination running through it in places giving a lovely wavy surface.
I suppose importing by own ply from the US is out of the question?
 
I have quite a few "scraps" of old plywood that I have been using up to make a few jigs (wood jigs are not quite so necessary since getting my MFS 400 >>> soon to be added onto with either the 700 or a longer 1000 set>>> Thanks to Brice Burrell and his fine pictorial thesis on the MFS).  I am slowly getting down to the last bits and pieces and had looked a few weeks ago @ HD 3/4" ply with its many plies.  I had not relised the stuff comes from China until reading this discussion.

I had to go to HD this morning and thought I would browse past the plywood/lumber areas for a few minutes.  There was a stack of 3/4 plywood with the many plies described in a couple of posts above.  It was on the steel racks as usual.  Four fingers (girders) of steel I-beam for support, so one would expect the pile, maybe twenty or thirty sheets, to lay flat with all of the steel beams in contact.  Wishful thinking  ???  The wood was in contact with three of the girders while the end of the pile was warped so the entire pile had curved upwatds, atleast six inches from the end beam.  I have never seen an entire pile warp like that.  a sheet or two on the top, maybe.  But not an entire pile.  The top several sheets were only tuching sheets below either side of center of the pile.  Both ends of the top 4 or 5 sheets were flying high.

My good lumber, i usually get from my local lumber yard, even tho the cost is greater.  I don't think i will be tempted to get plywood from the H-Despots for a long time.  The age old philosophy of "Cheap ain't cheap," still holds tru, even if "Cheap" is an arm and a leg or two.
Tinker
 
B & Q is our version of Home Depot. I always got the feeling that their timber/sheet material was quite expensive! And there's no such thing as a trade discount!

I buy my wood from proper wood sellers. The prices are much more realistic especially after we take the hefty discount we negotiate as bigger users. The quality is unquestionable. I have bought from B & Q but only when desperate. The quality is 'DIY' !

I have been into Home Depot once or twice and come to similar conclusions.

Rule of thumb. Don't buy your timber from retail outlets!! It's a NO NO.

Larry
 
Just in case anyone needs a source, I got some *great* multi-ply from "North American Plywood" in
New Jersey (they have warehouses elsewhere). They have Finnish and some lesser grades (russian
and generic "europly") in hard-to-find thicknesses (I got 1", which was hard to find at the time, they
have 2" and even 4" they said).

The sheets I got have no voids and are so constant in density it's amazing.

(The person I spoke to was Mike Closs)

p.s. I have no connection to them, other than ordering once quite some time ago.
 
over here in Oz Chinese has been around for a few years, i don't use it for anything.  The latest thing is imported strutcual ply from Chile. this ply is not strength graded to our standards.

so now i have trouble getting aust made ply as most lumber yards are selling this imported crap.
 
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