Chisel and plane sharpening

[Birdhunter]

I tried the micro bevel thing and I guess it's a good idea to protect the chisel's or iron's edge, but, for now, I have decided to not use it. I have not chipped any chisel or iron edges and it's very easy to slide the tool into the LN guide and tune the edge up on 8000 then 10,000 water stones.

 

[grbmds]

As far as I know, the reason for a micro-bevel is to avoid spending time re-sharpening the primary bevel each time the blade dulls. It definitely is faster to re-hone the micro-bevel rather than the primary; usually a small number of swipes across the 2 finest grit stones. I have not discovered any other reason a micro-bevel is needed.

 

[ChuckM]

Snip.
It definitely is faster to re-hone the micro-bevel rather than the primary;

You're spot on, Randy. Only when the micro bevel becomes too large do we re-establish a new primary bevel. A micro-beveled edge lasts longer relatively because of its higher angle. My Japanese chisel does not get a micro bevel, though.

 

[grbmds]

[member=57948]ChuckM[/member]

I have 1 Japanese chisel bought from Lee Valley and it came with a micro-bevel already on. I haven't needed to sharpen yet as I use it mainly for paring and it stays sharp a very long time. Why wouldn't a micro-bevel be just as useful as on other chisels?

 

[derekcohen]

The terminology will confuse many.

My version is that there is a primary bevel, and this may be flat, as in created with a belt sander, or hollowed, as on a bench grinder wheel.

Then there is a difference between a secondary bevel (which is a bevel higher than the primary bevel) and a micro bevel, which is simply a tiny bevel. Finally, there is a tertiary bevel, which is when one adds a higher angle to a secondary bevel (as well going to a higher grit).

One may have a micro secondary bevel, which is created when using a honing guide. And one may have a micro coplanar bevel, as when one hones freehand directly on a hollow grind.

Now lets not get started on the many ways in which one can hone a blade

What I will say, is that freehand honing directly on a hollow grind is the fastest way I know to hone an edge. And I can re-sharpen a blade in under 30 seconds. I only use a guide when honing BU plane blades. I have a selection of guides (because I am curious). The easiest to use is the LN. You do not need a sophisticated angle setting system. And if you are working on a fine hollow grind, you do not need multiple tertiary bevels.

Freehand hone on a fine hollow grind ...

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[grbmds]

Free hand May be the fastest way but, for most of us,  the most reliable way is to use a jig like the LN. I get the exact same result every time and it really doesn’t take much longer to establish the correct exposure for the desired angle with a simple homemade gauge. I’m guessing the WP jig would do exactly the same, and as well, as the LN jig. If you didn’t buy the setup guide and made one the price wouldn’t be much more thAn the LN jig when you include at least the long jaws for short blades.  No advantage if you already own the LN jig but might be An improvement over others.

 

[ChuckM]

The simplest way to make an angle setting jig for the side clamping style of honing jig is to make use of an angle gauge (http://www.leevalley.com/en/wood/page.aspx?p=67350&cat=1,43513) in a manner similar to this:
http://tinyurl.com/y5nn4x5l

 

[aufinger]

LN + the angle jig works well for me. I have the Veritas also and it's slick, but more steps.

Really, if you have a stop on your bench that gets you 25-degrees-ish, that's going to work well for you across most blades. Just but a 1/8 spacer in there for your micro bevel.

 

[Birdhunter]

Is the only advantage of a secondary bevel sharpening time ?

 

[aufinger]

Is the only advantage of a secondary bevel sharpening time ?

Yeah. When you go to resharpen, you just just to work the small micro bevel rather than the full bevel. A few swipes should be all you need to turn a burr.

 

[derekcohen]

Free hand May be the fastest way but, for most of us,  the most reliable way is to use a jig like the LN. I get the exact same result every time and it really doesn’t take much longer to establish the correct exposure for the desired angle with a simple homemade gauge. ...

It is not only fast, but angles are repeatable (for BD plane blades and chisels) if you first hollow grind to the angle you want, and then simpy freehand hone on the hollow. The hollow acts as a jig (no jig to set up). If you use a honing guide to create a secondary bevel, this will creep up and become excessively large, and at some stage you will need to re-grind the primary bevel anyway.

Freehanding on a hollow cuts out the unnecessary, and is much faster and just as reliable as a honing guide. When someone says that they are not in the shop enough to learn this, I remind them that I am also a weekend warrior, and it was no big deal to master the technique. I have used every method under the sun, and this is the one I decided works more efficiently for me.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[RKA]

I feel like I’m following your path Derek (trying this and that).  One question I had is why the jig for the BU blades but the hollow grind method for BD?  Is it because you’re putting a high angle on the BU and you don’t get the same solid registration as you do on other blades with lower angles? 

 

[derekcohen]

Hi Raj

Modern blades tend to be thicker and use steel that is more abrasion resistant than high carbon types (such as O1). Modern steels include A2 and PM-V11.

It is notably the BU planes that require a different sharpening strategy from BD planes. First off, the blades from LV are typically 3/16” thick. Secondly, all planes (BU and BD) need to camber the blades to avoid tracks when planing face grain. Thirdly, high cutting angles (I only use a bevel of 50 degrees, but the rule applies for lower angles as well) are needed for BU planes to avoid tearout with interlocked wood. The net result of attempting to freehand a camber on a 50 degree bevel on a thick abrasion-resistant steel scared most BU users away from doing so for many years. Some still have not got the message that there is a simple method to do so.

1. To camber a high angle BU blade you always use a honing guide. I freehand all my other blades - chisels and BD plane blades (on a hollow grind) - but BU plane blades need a guide to get the bevel angle correct.

2. Only ever use a 25 degree primary bevel. Never hone a full angle bevel, such as 50 degrees. Instead, add the 50 degrees as a secondary micro bevel to the 25 degree primary bevel. Add your camber while doing this. There is significantly less steel to remove this way. Honing and cambering BU plane blades can be a quick process.

My system for BD plane blades and all Western chisels is to freehand on a hollow. This creates a coplanar microbevel. An analogy is that this is similar to using a Japanese blade, which is hollowed (relieved) on the back to speed up honing hard steel. Working on the full hollow, rather than freehand creating a secondary micro bevel (tipping the blade), ensures repeatability of the cutting angle.

The quality of the hollow determines the speed at which you can hone. As full a hollow as possible - that is, as close to the edge as you can get without burning steel - reduces the steel to hone and speeds sharpening time, especially with abrasion-resistant steels. The two systems I recommend are the water-cooled Tormek and, better still, a 180 grit CBN wheel on a half-speed bench grinder. The CBN system is fast but also runs cool.

With this system it is possible to hone the first grind with a 5000 grit waterstone, and then proceed to the final polishing stone. I only need 2 or 3 swipes with each. That is fast. As the micro bevel grows, and it does this slowly, add in a 1000 grit stone. I generally re-sharpen about 5 times before touching up the hollow. Note that steel is removed from the hollow and not the length of the blade.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[RKA]

Thanks [member=4358]derekcohen[/member] !  I don't even want to know how many hours and years you've spent trying and perfecting your methods.  I've only done the hollow grind on the chisels thus far.  All the plane blades were done on a jig.  I've been hesitant to try the plane blades because I have a narrow cambered CBN wheel (toolsforworkingwood).  I can do a pretty good job freehanding up to a 1" chisel keeping the leading edge relatively straight, but with a 2" wide plane blade I think I need a tormek style blade holder for my grinder in order to rake the blade evenly across the cambered wheel.  I guess I'll never know unless I try to freehand it first and see how badly I screw up my blade?  I'm a scared-y cat. 

Edit:  I went digging around for more details on cambering blades (BD and BU) and found the following written by Derek.  I think it goes into exhausting detail about how he arrived with his recommendations.  I've only gone through half of it, but I thought it would be good to add the link below in case anyone else has the same questions.

https://www.inthewoodshop.com/WoodworkTechniques/TheSecretToCamberinBUPlaneBlades.html

 

[grbmds]

Free hand May be the fastest way but, for most of us,  the most reliable way is to use a jig like the LN. I get the exact same result every time and it really doesn’t take much longer to establish the correct exposure for the desired angle with a simple homemade gauge. ...

It is not only fast, but angles are repeatable (for BD plane blades and chisels) if you first hollow grind to the angle you want, and then simpy freehand hone on the hollow. The hollow acts as a jig (no jig to set up). If you use a honing guide to create a secondary bevel, this will creep up and become excessively large, and at some stage you will need to re-grind the primary bevel anyway.

Freehanding on a hollow cuts out the unnecessary, and is much faster and just as reliable as a honing guide. When someone says that they are not in the shop enough to learn this, I remind them that I am also a weekend warrior, and it was no big deal to master the technique. I have used every method under the sun, and this is the one I decided works more efficiently for me.

Regards from Perth

Derek
[/quote

Completely understand the process. I just do a better job with a jig and that's why I continue to use one. Many professional woodworkers use a jig also because it's the most reliable for them. We all have our ways of doing things and do what works best for us. I think it's great when people do freehand sharpening/ honing. Just not me.

 

[derekcohen]

Randy, I have long stated that the important element in woodworking is the building, not the sharpening. No one looks at a piece you have built and asks how you sharpened, or whether you freehanded or used a honing guide

How you do it is a personal preference. There are lots of methods that work.

Regards from Perth

Derek

 

[tackdriver]

Using a small secondary bevel also saves wear on your stones and reduces the need to reflatten them as often.